13 Feb
2013
13 Feb
'13
10:27 a.m.
I have a 3B2/1000 that I'm trying to resurrect. The main Winchester drive is dead-ish
(haven't written it off, but it's doing spinup-click-spindown so there's
something big wrong), so I need to label a new drive.
3B2s are DSQD floppies, and I'm trying to figure out my best approach. I have the
utility software in a disk image, but PCs usually don't ship with DSQD drives.
I've found three possible options, but don't know if anyone's used any of them
(or one that I haven't come across).
(1) Mount the 3B2's DSQD floppy in a PC and try to write out the disk using it.
Don't know if the PC's disk controller supports DSQD- I have a Compaq Deskpro
386/25 and a whitebox Pentium that I can try
(2) modify one of the above machine's stock 1.2MB drives to spin at 300RPM. Don't
know if it will write out the disk this way, but found mod. instructions here:
http://www.oldskool.org/disk2fdi/525HDMOD.htm . May work, may not -I'm not sure how QD
and HD head widths compare.
(3) Replace the 3B2's 5.25 DSQD drive with a 3.5" drive and use 720K 3.5"
disks to load it. Don't know how well 3B2 hardware would like this mod.
I do have the proper DSDD media to use, so that's not an issue. I'd probably write
the disk out with "dd" on Linux or xBSD if possble, as the network support makes
getting the image to the writing machine much easier.
Anyone been in this position before?
13 Feb
13 Feb
11:01 a.m.
On 02/13/2013 10:27 AM, Scott Quinn wrote:
I have a 3B2/1000 that I'm trying to resurrect.
The main Winchester
drive is dead-ish (haven't written it off, but it's doing
spinup-click-spindown so there's something big wrong), so I need to
label a new drive.
3B2s are DSQD floppies, and I'm trying to figure out my best
approach. I have the utility software in a disk image, but PCs
usually don't ship with DSQD drives. I've found three possible
options, but don't know if anyone's used any of them (or one that I
haven't come across).
(1) Mount the 3B2's DSQD floppy in a PC and try to write out the disk
using it. Don't know if the PC's disk controller supports DSQD- I
have a Compaq Deskpro 386/25 and a whitebox Pentium that I can try
(2) modify one of the above machine's stock 1.2MB drives to spin at
300RPM. Don't know if it will write out the disk this way, but found
mod. instructions here: http://www.oldskool.org/disk2fdi/525HDMOD.htm
. May work, may not -I'm not sure how QD and HD head widths compare.
(3) Replace the 3B2's 5.25 DSQD drive with a 3.5" drive and use 720K
3.5" disks to load it. Don't know how well 3B2 hardware would like
this mod.
I do have the proper DSDD media to use, so that's not an issue. I'd
probably write the disk out with "dd" on Linux or xBSD if possble, as
the network support makes getting the image to the writing machine
much easier.
Anyone been in this position before?
What are you using for imaging software? Most should work with a plain
old unmodified "1.2M" drive in a PC AT or better (the controller uses a
300KHz data clock instead of a 250KHz one when handling DD floppies).
Most imaging software is aware of this and adjusts accordingly. It's
true that if the software uses the BIOS, the drive will double-step, but
that's not true if the software uses its own floppy code.
You're making the job too difficult for yourself, I think.
--Chuck
11:18 a.m.
On 2/13/2013 10:27 AM, Scott Quinn wrote:
(1) Mount the 3B2's DSQD floppy in a PC and try to
write out the disk using it. Don't know if the PC's disk controller supports DSQD-
I have a Compaq Deskpro 386/25 and a whitebox Pentium that I can try
Anyone been in this position before?
That's what I ended up doing to make floppies for a 3B2 before. I think
I just set it as 720k floppy in bios and it just worked. I imagine you
probably need to change the drive ID on the floppy too. I never had any
luck making bootable floppies on any other drives. It was a pain to take
that floppy in and out of the 3B2/1000 too.
1:11 p.m.
New subject: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies
On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, Scott Quinn wrote:
3B2s are DSQD floppies, and I'm trying to figure
out my best approach. I
have the utility software in a disk image, but PCs usually don't ship
with DSQD drives. I've found three possible options, but don't know if
anyone's used any of them (or one that I haven't come across).
You should be OK.
Depends on what you mean by "DSQD".
"THERE AIN'T NO SECH ANIMAL."
DO you mean DSDD with 96TPI? (aka "720K" (which could easily be from 640K
to 800K) Ignorant marketing people (not NECESSARILY suits) created a
ridiculous technically bogus name for that of "quad density"
OR DID YOU MEAN SOMETHING ELSE by "DSQD"?
If "720K", most "1.2M" drives can handle that. You need to switch
the
speed to 300RPM OR switch the data transfer rate of the controller to 300K,
(just like what is done for reading "360K" disks in a "1.2M" drive)
AND
not let it double step (when reading "360K" disks in a "1.2M" drive,
every
other track of the 96TPI is used to get the needed 48TPI)
OR
connect a "720K" drive to the PC.
cable it, and jumper DS, etc exactly the same as the 360K version of
that drive.
Teac 55FG is an excellent drive that is designed for both "720K" AND
"1.2M" (F is their "720K" model, G is their "1.2M"
model)
If you are NOT using a PC, but instead, some newer device, such as an AT,
you can tell the CMOS that it is 720K 3.5" OR tell it is "360K" (for
pre-3.5" ATs)
On a PC or XT (5150, 5160), the hardware doesn't know the difference
between a "360K" drive and a "720K" drive. (Although MS-DOS, to
select
WHICH MS-DOS format it expects, wants DRIVER.SYS or DRIVPARM)
THE BEST reason for keeping a 5160!
OR
use a "720K" 3.5" in the 3B2
no idea about special jumpering, etc.
("1.4M" would actually probably work, but further compound jumpering
issues due to density select)
NOTE: the commonly used format is 1.406M (80 * 2 * 9 * 512), and you
CAN NOT GET 1.44M unless you REALLY create a bizarre UNIQUE format,
OR misdefine a megabyte to be 2^10 * 10^3 (which nobody outside of
marketing would knowingly do!)
NOTE: I am forced to refer to drive types by their grossly inaccurate
popular names, since otherwise I need an entire line of text to identify
the drive and format type,
"Industry standard 5.25" 96 track per inch using MFM, at 300RPM with
a 250K data transfer rate, or at 360RPM with a 300K data transfer rate"
or would need to use the nonstandardized IBM drive type
names of "type 0", "type 1", "type 2", "type 7",
etc.
Isn't "720K" understandable and simpler?
USUALLY, when people say "quad density", they are referring to DSDD with
96TPI.
BUT NOT ALWAYS. THERE REALLY ISN'T ANY SUCH THING AS "QUAD DENSITY".
For example, when Superbrain (Intertec) went to DOUBLE SIDED on their
DOUBLE DENSITY disks, (doubling the capacity from ~180K to ~360K),
(which the entire civilized world called "DOUBLE DENSITY"),
they called THAT "Quad Density" ("QD")!
When Superbrain (Intertec) went to 80 tracks (96tpi V 48tpi) on THEIR
"QUAD DENSITY" (increasing the capacity from ~360K to ~720K, which
MARKETING of most other companies called "quad density"), they had
to follow the lead of olive size names, and called them "SUPER DENSITY"!!
They abbreviated THAT "SD", which everybody in the civilized world knows
to be "single density".
8:04 p.m.
New subject: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies
I changed the software controller parameter on my Zenith Z-100 to get 96 TPI on the 5.25
inch drives. Simple change, although had to add a thin metal shield on top of drive
because of interference from monitor.
Sent from my Ohio Challenger 2P
Asteroid 2012 DA14 Earth Flyby on Feb 15, 2013. I will come close but will not hit the
earth.
See video information at:
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/solarsystem/features/asteroidflyby.html
On Feb 13, 2013, at 4:11 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, Scott Quinn wrote:
3B2s are DSQD floppies, and I'm trying to
figure out my best approach. I
have the utility software in a disk image, but PCs usually don't ship
with DSQD drives. I've found three possible options, but don't know if
anyone's used any of them (or one that I haven't come across).
You should be OK.
Depends on what you mean by "DSQD".
"THERE AIN'T NO SECH ANIMAL."
DO you mean DSDD with 96TPI? (aka "720K" (which could easily be from 640K
to 800K) Ignorant marketing people (not NECESSARILY suits) created a
ridiculous technically bogus name for that of "quad density"
OR DID YOU MEAN SOMETHING ELSE by "DSQD"?
If "720K", most "1.2M" drives can handle that. You need to switch
the
speed to 300RPM OR switch the data transfer rate of the controller to 300K,
(just like what is done for reading "360K" disks in a "1.2M" drive)
AND
not let it double step (when reading "360K" disks in a "1.2M" drive,
every
other track of the 96TPI is used to get the needed 48TPI)
OR
connect a "720K" drive to the PC.
cable it, and jumper DS, etc exactly the same as the 360K version of
that drive.
Teac 55FG is an excellent drive that is designed for both "720K" AND
"1.2M" (F is their "720K" model, G is their "1.2M"
model)
If you are NOT using a PC, but instead, some newer device, such as an AT,
you can tell the CMOS that it is 720K 3.5" OR tell it is "360K" (for
pre-3.5" ATs)
On a PC or XT (5150, 5160), the hardware doesn't know the difference
between a "360K" drive and a "720K" drive. (Although MS-DOS, to
select
WHICH MS-DOS format it expects, wants DRIVER.SYS or DRIVPARM)
THE BEST reason for keeping a 5160!
OR
use a "720K" 3.5" in the 3B2
no idea about special jumpering, etc.
("1.4M" would actually probably work, but further compound jumpering
issues due to density select)
NOTE: the commonly used format is 1.406M (80 * 2 * 9 * 512), and you
CAN NOT GET 1.44M unless you REALLY create a bizarre UNIQUE format,
OR misdefine a megabyte to be 2^10 * 10^3 (which nobody outside of
marketing would knowingly do!)
NOTE: I am forced to refer to drive types by their grossly inaccurate
popular names, since otherwise I need an entire line of text to identify
the drive and format type,
"Industry standard 5.25" 96 track per inch using MFM, at 300RPM with
a 250K data transfer rate, or at 360RPM with a 300K data transfer rate"
or would need to use the nonstandardized IBM drive type
names of "type 0", "type 1", "type 2", "type 7",
etc.
Isn't "720K" understandable and simpler?
USUALLY, when people say "quad density", they are referring to DSDD with
96TPI.
BUT NOT ALWAYS. THERE REALLY ISN'T ANY SUCH THING AS "QUAD DENSITY".
For example, when Superbrain (Intertec) went to DOUBLE SIDED on their
DOUBLE DENSITY disks, (doubling the capacity from ~180K to ~360K),
(which the entire civilized world called "DOUBLE DENSITY"),
they called THAT "Quad Density" ("QD")!
When Superbrain (Intertec) went to 80 tracks (96tpi V 48tpi) on THEIR
"QUAD DENSITY" (increasing the capacity from ~360K to ~720K, which
MARKETING of most other companies called "quad density"), they had
to follow the lead of olive size names, and called them "SUPER DENSITY"!!
They abbreviated THAT "SD", which everybody in the civilized world knows
to be "single density".
9:13 p.m.
New subject: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies
On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, James Lynch wrote:
I changed the software controller parameter on my
Zenith Z-100 to get 96
TPI on the 5.25 inch drives. Simple change, although had to add a thin
metal shield on top of drive because of interference from monitor.
I had to do that when I mounted a full height floppy drive in the "tuner"
space of the TRS80 model 1 monitor. "Mu-metal"
I don't see any reason why it would be different for 40 tracks or 80
tracks on the drive.
14 Feb
14 Feb
2:28 p.m.
New subject: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies
On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, James Lynch wrote:
The narrower head/track of the 80 cylidner [1] driveproducese a smaller
signal than that of the 40 cylidner drive. So the interference becomes
relatively larger.
This may also be why some disks work at 40 cylidners nad not at 80. The
read signal is marginal in any case, and when you use narrower tracks,
it';s jsut to osmall for the red amplifier to cope with.
[1] Stricktly, an IBNM PC 360K disk has 80 tracks. 2 in each fo 40
cylinders.
-tony
I changed the software controller parameter on my
Zenith Z-100 to get 96
TPI on the 5.25 inch drives. Simple change, although had to add a thin
metal shield on top of drive because of interference from monitor.
I had to do that when I mounted a full height floppy drive in the "tuner"
space of the TRS80 model 1 monitor. "Mu-metal"
I don't see any reason why it would be different for 40 tracks or 80
tracks on the drive.
4:04 p.m.
New subject: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies
On 02/14/2013 02:28 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
[1] Stricktly, an IBNM PC 360K disk has 80 tracks. 2
in each fo 40
cylinders.
It depends upon your terminology. sectors->tracks->heads->cyliners.
Some argue that this applies only to hard drives, but I see no reason
that this should be true. I have many floppies that are labeled by the
manufacturer as 35/40 track, double-sided.
--Chuck
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