1 Dec
2004
1 Dec
'04
3:57 p.m.
I'm finally getting around to trying to do something with my PDP-11/23
system and am having trouble creating bootable RT-11 V5 disks. I have
an RX02 drive and a set of RX01 distribution disks. I've tried booting
disk 1 of the RX01 distribution and that fails. Should I be able to
boot an RX01 on an RX02 drive? Also, I've tried copying disks using:
COPY/WAIT/OUTPUT:DY1: DY0:
and then
COPY/BOOT DY1:RT11FB.SYS DY1:
Unfortunately, that doesn't result in a bootable disk. In fact, when I
did it, it trashed the system disk in DY0 even though I removed it
before and replaced it with the source disk of the copy. Does this
sound like I've got a broken drive? I seem to be able to read either
RX01 disks or RX02 disks in DY1 without any problem. Also, the copy I
made in the first step above seems to be okay. It's just that I can't
boot the disk after the second COPY/BOOT step.
What dumb thing am I doing wrong?
Thanks,
David Betz
1 Dec
1 Dec
4:48 p.m.
David Betz wrote:
I'm finally getting around to trying to do
something with my PDP-11/23
system and am having trouble creating bootable RT-11 V5 disks. I have an
RX02 drive and a set of RX01 distribution disks. I've tried booting disk
1 of the RX01 distribution and that fails. Should I be able to boot an
RX01 on an RX02 drive? Also, I've tried copying disks using:
COPY/WAIT/OUTPUT:DY1: DY0:
and then
COPY/BOOT DY1:RT11FB.SYS DY1:
Unfortunately, that doesn't result in a bootable disk. In fact, when I
did it, it trashed the system disk in DY0 even though I removed it
before and replaced it with the source disk of the copy. Does this sound
like I've got a broken drive? I seem to be able to read either RX01
disks or RX02 disks in DY1 without any problem. Also, the copy I made in
the first step above seems to be okay. It's just that I can't boot the
disk after the second COPY/BOOT step.
What dumb thing am I doing wrong?
I may be wrong - I'm a newbie with RT-11, but if DY1 in the second
step is the same floppy as DY1: in the first step, I don't think
RT11FB.SYS exists on DY1:.
I believe you need the /SYS option to include *.SYS files in the file
copy.
Doc
5:02 p.m.
Oops. I made a mistake in my original post. The command I typed to copy
the distribution disk was:
SQUEEZE/WAIT/OUTPUT:DY1: DY0:
That's what the installation instructions say to do anyway.
I've actually gotten a boot disk created now. It seems that the V4
version of RT-11 I was originally using didn't really do the COPY/BOOT
command correctly. I found another V4 boot disk and was able to use it
to create a bootable V5 disk. I now have RT-11 V5 and the DECUS C
compiler and linker all on one disk. This is something I could never do
with my old PDT-11/150. It only had RX01 floppies and all that won't
fit on a single density floppy. It's nice to have a bit more space with
RX02 drives!
Thanks for your help!
David
On Dec 1, 2004, at 10:48 PM, Doc Shipley wrote:
David Betz wrote:
I'm finally getting around to trying to do
something with my
PDP-11/23 system and am having trouble creating bootable RT-11 V5
disks. I have an RX02 drive and a set of RX01 distribution disks.
I've tried booting disk 1 of the RX01 distribution and that fails.
Should I be able to boot an RX01 on an RX02 drive? Also, I've tried
copying disks using:
COPY/WAIT/OUTPUT:DY1: DY0:
and then
COPY/BOOT DY1:RT11FB.SYS DY1:
Unfortunately, that doesn't result in a bootable disk. In fact, when
I did it, it trashed the system disk in DY0 even though I removed it
before and replaced it with the source disk of the copy. Does this
sound like I've got a broken drive? I seem to be able to read either
RX01 disks or RX02 disks in DY1 without any problem. Also, the copy I
made in the first step above seems to be okay. It's just that I can't
boot the disk after the second COPY/BOOT step.
What dumb thing am I doing wrong?
I may be wrong - I'm a newbie with RT-11, but if DY1 in the second
step is the same floppy as DY1: in the first step, I don't think
RT11FB.SYS exists on DY1:.
I believe you need the /SYS option to include *.SYS files in the
file copy.
Doc
2 Dec
2 Dec
4:49 a.m.
David Betz wrote:
Oops. I made a mistake in my original post. The
command I typed to
copy the distribution disk was:
SQUEEZE/WAIT/OUTPUT:DY1: DY0:
That's what the installation instructions say to do anyway.
I've actually gotten a boot disk created now. It seems that the V4
version of RT-11 I was originally using didn't really do the COPY/BOOT
command correctly. I found another V4 boot disk and was able to use it
to create a bootable V5 disk. I now have RT-11 V5 and the DECUS C
compiler and linker all on one disk. This is something I could never
do with my old PDT-11/150. It only had RX01 floppies and all that
won't fit on a single density floppy. It's nice to have a bit more
space with RX02 drives!
Jerome Fine replies:
Even though the CSR/VECTOR addresses of RX01 and RX02
drives are the same, they are VERY different programs
with regard to the device drivers, DX.SYS and DY.SYS,
respectively. Thus, an RX01 bootable floppy can't
boot in an RX02 drive and visa versa.
HOWEVER, although it is NOT possible to read an RX02
floppy (with double density data or 988 blocks on the
floppy) on an RX01 drive, it is possible and NORMAL
to read an RX01 floppy (with single density data or
494 blocks on the floppy) on an RX02 drive.
You probably understand this now, but other RT-11 users
may not.
In addition, the device driver for the PDT is again
different (as far as I understand) from the RX01 device
driver even though the media is the same (again as far as
I understand). NOTE that I have never used a PDT system.
As for more recent distributions of RT-11 up to V05.03
of RT-11, they are available at:
http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/
If you can manage to have a hard disk drive with
the PDP-11/23, that makes like even better. While
a SCSI host adapter is still expensive, SCSI drives
are not. An RQDXn controller is low in cost, but
decent compatible hard drives are hard to find.
Don't try to use an RD53 since they are no longer
reliable. RD52 drives are still OK, as are RD51
drives which are just 10 MByte Seagate ST-412 drives.
How you transfer them to your PDP-11/23 is a problem
I can't help you with. For myself, I use the MSCP
device driver, DU.SYS, which I have on both a PC
(under E11 with a Sony SMO S-501 and an Adaptec
AHA-2904AU) and the real DEC hardware (with a the
CQD-220/TM host adapter and the same SMO S-501).
In addition, DSD produced an RX03 compatible
floppy media which is able to use RX02 media
PLUS double sided RX02 compatible media. While
DEC never did correct the code in DY.MAC to allow
for double sided drives (it was present in V04.00
of RT-11), a DYX.SYS device driver is available
which handles RX03 media on the DSD which also
allows the use of memory beyond the 256 KByte
boundary via a bounce buffer. It is also possible
to re-wire a DSD drive so that single-sided media
are used rather than punching the extra holes in
the floppies when the user wants to use both sides
of the floppy. A DPDT switch allows the user to
select how the floppy is used.
If you have any RT-11 questions, please ask!
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
--
If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail
address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk
e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be
obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the
'at' with the four digits of the current year.
5:09 a.m.
Thanks for your comments! I guess what confused me was that both DX.SYS
and DY.SYS are present on my RX01 distribution disk 1. Maybe the
problem is that whatever is written by COPY/BOOT isn't compatible with
the RX02 drive? As you suggest, I can read the RX01 media fine once
I've booted off of an RX02 disk.
In any case, I've gotten past this problem and now have a bootable RX02
disk with RT-11 V5 and the DECUS C compiler. I'm working on getting
Kermit copied over.
On Dec 2, 2004, at 10:49 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
David Betz
wrote:
Oops. I made a mistake in my original post. The
command I typed to
copy the distribution disk was:
SQUEEZE/WAIT/OUTPUT:DY1: DY0:
That's what the installation instructions say to do anyway.
I've actually gotten a boot disk created now. It seems that the V4
version of RT-11 I was originally using didn't really do the
COPY/BOOT command correctly. I found another V4 boot disk and was
able to use it to create a bootable V5 disk. I now have RT-11 V5 and
the DECUS C compiler and linker all on one disk. This is something I
could never do with my old PDT-11/150. It only had RX01 floppies and
all that won't fit on a single density floppy. It's nice to have a
bit more space with RX02 drives!
Jerome Fine replies:
Even though the CSR/VECTOR addresses of RX01 and RX02
drives are the same, they are VERY different programs
with regard to the device drivers, DX.SYS and DY.SYS,
respectively. Thus, an RX01 bootable floppy can't
boot in an RX02 drive and visa versa.
HOWEVER, although it is NOT possible to read an RX02
floppy (with double density data or 988 blocks on the
floppy) on an RX01 drive, it is possible and NORMAL
to read an RX01 floppy (with single density data or
494 blocks on the floppy) on an RX02 drive.
You probably understand this now, but other RT-11 users
may not.
In addition, the device driver for the PDT is again
different (as far as I understand) from the RX01 device
driver even though the media is the same (again as far as
I understand). NOTE that I have never used a PDT system.
As for more recent distributions of RT-11 up to V05.03
of RT-11, they are available at:
http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/
If you can manage to have a hard disk drive with
the PDP-11/23, that makes like even better. While
a SCSI host adapter is still expensive, SCSI drives
are not. An RQDXn controller is low in cost, but
decent compatible hard drives are hard to find.
Don't try to use an RD53 since they are no longer
reliable. RD52 drives are still OK, as are RD51
drives which are just 10 MByte Seagate ST-412 drives.
How you transfer them to your PDP-11/23 is a problem
I can't help you with. For myself, I use the MSCP
device driver, DU.SYS, which I have on both a PC
(under E11 with a Sony SMO S-501 and an Adaptec
AHA-2904AU) and the real DEC hardware (with a the
CQD-220/TM host adapter and the same SMO S-501).
In addition, DSD produced an RX03 compatible
floppy media which is able to use RX02 media
PLUS double sided RX02 compatible media. While
DEC never did correct the code in DY.MAC to allow
for double sided drives (it was present in V04.00
of RT-11), a DYX.SYS device driver is available
which handles RX03 media on the DSD which also
allows the use of memory beyond the 256 KByte
boundary via a bounce buffer. It is also possible
to re-wire a DSD drive so that single-sided media
are used rather than punching the extra holes in
the floppies when the user wants to use both sides
of the floppy. A DPDT switch allows the user to
select how the floppy is used.
If you have any RT-11 questions, please ask!
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
--
If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail
address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk
e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be
obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the
'at' with the four digits of the current year.
12:01 p.m.
Well, I'm seriously considering divesting myself of actual PDP-11
hardware in favor of just running RT-11 on simh. After all, I'm really
a software guy. It *is* fun playing with the old hardware though and
it's nice to actually handle the Q-Bus cards. I enjoyed hearing the
clacking of the RX02 drives as I ran the DECUS C compiler and
assembler. On the other hand, it would be nice to get back some floor
and closet space. I wonder if anyone would like to trade an 11/23 and
RX02 for one of the smaller pedestal units?
On Dec 2, 2004, at 10:49 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
David Betz
wrote:
Oops. I made a mistake in my original post. The
command I typed to
copy the distribution disk was:
SQUEEZE/WAIT/OUTPUT:DY1: DY0:
That's what the installation instructions say to do anyway.
I've actually gotten a boot disk created now. It seems that the V4
version of RT-11 I was originally using didn't really do the
COPY/BOOT command correctly. I found another V4 boot disk and was
able to use it to create a bootable V5 disk. I now have RT-11 V5 and
the DECUS C compiler and linker all on one disk. This is something I
could never do with my old PDT-11/150. It only had RX01 floppies and
all that won't fit on a single density floppy. It's nice to have a
bit more space with RX02 drives!
Jerome Fine replies:
Even though the CSR/VECTOR addresses of RX01 and RX02
drives are the same, they are VERY different programs
with regard to the device drivers, DX.SYS and DY.SYS,
respectively. Thus, an RX01 bootable floppy can't
boot in an RX02 drive and visa versa.
HOWEVER, although it is NOT possible to read an RX02
floppy (with double density data or 988 blocks on the
floppy) on an RX01 drive, it is possible and NORMAL
to read an RX01 floppy (with single density data or
494 blocks on the floppy) on an RX02 drive.
You probably understand this now, but other RT-11 users
may not.
In addition, the device driver for the PDT is again
different (as far as I understand) from the RX01 device
driver even though the media is the same (again as far as
I understand). NOTE that I have never used a PDT system.
As for more recent distributions of RT-11 up to V05.03
of RT-11, they are available at:
http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/
If you can manage to have a hard disk drive with
the PDP-11/23, that makes like even better. While
a SCSI host adapter is still expensive, SCSI drives
are not. An RQDXn controller is low in cost, but
decent compatible hard drives are hard to find.
Don't try to use an RD53 since they are no longer
reliable. RD52 drives are still OK, as are RD51
drives which are just 10 MByte Seagate ST-412 drives.
How you transfer them to your PDP-11/23 is a problem
I can't help you with. For myself, I use the MSCP
device driver, DU.SYS, which I have on both a PC
(under E11 with a Sony SMO S-501 and an Adaptec
AHA-2904AU) and the real DEC hardware (with a the
CQD-220/TM host adapter and the same SMO S-501).
In addition, DSD produced an RX03 compatible
floppy media which is able to use RX02 media
PLUS double sided RX02 compatible media. While
DEC never did correct the code in DY.MAC to allow
for double sided drives (it was present in V04.00
of RT-11), a DYX.SYS device driver is available
which handles RX03 media on the DSD which also
allows the use of memory beyond the 256 KByte
boundary via a bounce buffer. It is also possible
to re-wire a DSD drive so that single-sided media
are used rather than punching the extra holes in
the floppies when the user wants to use both sides
of the floppy. A DPDT switch allows the user to
select how the floppy is used.
If you have any RT-11 questions, please ask!
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
--
If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail
address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk
e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be
obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the
'at' with the four digits of the current year.
1:15 p.m.
David Betz wrote:
Well, I'm seriously considering divesting myself
of actual PDP-11
hardware in favor of just running RT-11 on simh. After all, I'm really
a software guy. It *is* fun playing with the old hardware though and
it's nice to actually handle the Q-Bus cards. I enjoyed hearing the
clacking of the RX02 drives as I ran the DECUS C compiler and
assembler. On the other hand, it would be nice to get back some floor
and closet space. I wonder if anyone would like to trade an 11/23 and
RX02 for one of the smaller pedestal units?
Jerome Fine replies:
You might also want to try the hobby version of E11 at:
http://www.dbit.com/pub/e11/
I run under Windows 98 SE since I REQUIRE the VT100
emulation which supports 132 character text lines
under KED. Your hardware must also have ATI based
video support - or at least that is what it seems
to be for me. I use a 750 MHz Pentium III with
an AGP card which is ATI based. It runs RT-11
about 15 times as fast as a DEC PDP-11/93.
As for your RX02 drive and the PDP-11/23, well the
hardware addicts might like to have one. I am also
a software addict myself. Eventually, I expect to
produce a Y9K version of RT-11. Hopefully Mentec
will eventually allow the hobby users access to
V05.07 of RT-11 and the changes will be needed for
only the latest version from November 1998.
Again, V05.03 of RT-11 (as well as most previous
versions) are available at:
http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/
Has anyone reading this e-mail downloaded:
RT11DV10.ISO.zip (other than those I send the file
to originally as a draft version) and what has your
experience been with the file? Did you burn a CD?
Are there any changes you would recommend?
In addition, is anyone interested in V2-0 of the CD
which would contain layered products? Which layered
products would be important:
(a) FORTRAN IV and 77
(b) BASIC
(c) C
(d) Pascal
(e) COBOL (is there a COBOL for RT-11?)
(f) Other - please specify
In addition, bug fixes are needed for RT-11 as well
as enhancements. Can anyone help:
(a) Path (Pseudo) Device Handler - PH(X).SYS
(b) Y2K bug fixes for older RT-11 such as V05.03
(c) Y9K enhancements for both V05.03 and V05.07
(d) Enhancements for the SL: (Single Line Editor)
(e) Other - please specify both bugs and enhancements
Any other RT-11 questions.
I recently was forced to switch to V7.2 of Netscape
and it took about 2 months to figure out how to be
able to send posts to newsgroups. I have multiple
e-mail accounts and this caused a bit of a problem,
but also allowed a convenient solution.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
--
If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail
address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk
e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be
obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the
'at' with the four digits of the current year.
10 p.m.
Hi,
Jerome H. Fine said:
E11 runs just fine under MSDOS, I use an old 486 DX4/100, no
display, no keyboard - just a terminal. And you can add the
blinkenlites...
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
David Betz
wrote:
Well, I'm seriously considering divesting
myself of actual PDP-11
hardware in favor of just running RT-11 on simh. After all, I'm really
a software guy. It *is* fun playing with the old hardware though and
it's nice to actually handle the Q-Bus cards. I enjoyed hearing the
clacking of the RX02 drives as I ran the DECUS C compiler and
assembler. On the other hand, it would be nice to get back some floor
and closet space. I wonder if anyone would like to trade an 11/23 and
RX02 for one of the smaller pedestal units?
Jerome Fine replies:
You might also want to try the hobby version of E11 at:
http://www.dbit.com/pub/e11/
I run under Windows 98 SE since I REQUIRE the VT100
emulation which supports 132 character text lines
under KED. Your hardware must also have ATI based
video support - or at least that is what it seems
to be for me. I use a 750 MHz Pentium III with
an AGP card which is ATI based. It runs RT-11
about 15 times as fast as a DEC PDP-11/93. 
6 Dec
6 Dec
4:43 p.m.
Jerome H. Fine wrote:
In addition, is anyone interested in V2-0 of the CD
which would contain layered products? Which layered
Yes!
products would be important:
(a) FORTRAN IV and 77
(b) BASIC
(c) C
C!
(d) Pascal
(e) COBOL (is there a COBOL for RT-11?)
Hmm...I think there was a Dibol but not sure anymore..
/wai-sun
2 Dec
2 Dec
4:43 a.m.
>>>> "David" == David Betz
<dbetz(a)xlisper.mv.com> writes:
David> ...and then
David> COPY/BOOT DY1:RT11FB.SYS DY1:
David> Unfortunately, that doesn't result in a bootable disk.
David> .... It's just that I can't boot
David> the disk after the second COPY/BOOT step.
I believe the OS image you want to boot HAS to be called MONITR.SYS on
the bootable disk.
paul
7163
days inactive
7168
days old
9 comments
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participants (6)
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dbetz＠xlisper.mv.com -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
jhfinexgs2＠compsys.to -
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waisun.chia＠hp.com