14 Apr
2009
14 Apr
'09
2:09 p.m.
On 4/14/09, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
I have all of the diag listing on fiche. The scanner
that I have is a bit
difficult to use, so it takes about an hour per sheet to set up and scan.
Wow. That's fiddly. I can understand things being difficult - the
information density on a fiche is rather high.
Speaking of fiche scanning, I was going through some boxes last week
and ran across the source fiche for VMS 2.0. I know it's far from the
only copy in the world, but it did make me wonder if anyone has an
electronic copy. It'd be a hell of an OCR project (or an interesting
Captcha dataset), but even scans could be interesting to read through.
What I have is one 3-ring binder with a special fiche-storage insert -
you can read the top 1/4" to see that you have the right fiche, and
the lower 90% is protected from dust and scratches. There's at least
20 fiche to a "page" in the notebook, and it's one or two
"pages".
Elsewhere, I know I have VMS 4.0 and probably other versions of source
fiche. Of course, I do have a reader (more than one), but looking at
things on a modern machine without having to go to where the gear is,
make room to set the reader up, etc., means that most of the time, the
fiche just sit - no casual browsing and no easy way to share or
preserve the contents.
I know the group has hashed and rehashed fiche scanning and I don't
mean to re-open that debate. Obviously fiche scanners exist,
reinventing the wheel isn't cost effective, etc, etc. It's
unfortunate that there's so much manual fiddling to get a good scan,
but those letters are awful tiny.
If I were on the left coast, I might consider volunteering to drive
the scanner just to be able to share the results. I have a pile of
fiche myself, mostly from the late 1970s through the mid-1980s, IBM
and DEC docs primarily, and it would be great to know that it's not
only accessible as slivers of film.
-ethan
14 Apr
14 Apr
2:23 p.m.
I have an epson perfection scanner which can scan up to 5x7 transparancies.
Once I have the template set, I can do a fiche in about 5 min.
If you can snag one of these with the appropriate size transparency
capability of any size, I recommend getting it, as it is very fast. I
don't know what exists for sheet feeders on this scanner, but I would
think with a sheet feeder, you could do 10 pages / min minimum for full
size sheet scanning as well, not bad considering you could do both.
I had one of Al's high speed Ricoh's for a while, and the real problem
you get into is that manuals which have been stored for a long time, and
are not offset print (ink) but are xerox or such printing the pages will
be stuck enough to keep you from using the real full speed of his
scanners. I ended up having to do a sheet by sheet feed with mouse
clicks per page anyway to scan a manual. Admittedly it was a very fast
process, but not that much faster than the above.
Jim
Ethan Dicks wrote:
On 4/14/09, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>
wrote:
only fiddly if you have crappy scanning software. Some have front ends
which show some thought went into actually using the product, and not
just printing on the box that "scanner comes with software".
Epson's rates highest on my scale for generic software.
Jim
I have all of the diag listing on fiche. The
scanner that I have is a bit
difficult to use, so it takes about an hour per sheet to set up and scan.
Wow. That's fiddly. I can understand things being difficult - the
information density on a fiche is rather high.
3:26 p.m.
New subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70)
I know the group has hashed and rehashed fiche
scanning and I don't
mean to re-open that debate. Obviously fiche scanners exist,
reinventing the wheel isn't cost effective, etc, etc. It's
unfortunate that there's so much manual fiddling to get a good scan,
but those letters are awful tiny.
Ethan, there is a way to easily scan these fiches if a normal scanner
with negative/transparency adapter doesn't fit the bill
A digital camera in front of the reader, page after page, in a darkened
room would do miracles. A professional (high-quality, etc) DV camera feeding
directly a computer in front of the reader also would do miracles.
Anyway, is a slow and troublesome way to scan them. Is there an
automatic scanner?
Alexandre, PU1BZZ
3:52 p.m.
New subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70)
Alexandre Souza wrote:
The DEC ones I've seen are extremely high resolution - from memory, something
like 11 x 13 A4 pages on a fiche around 1" x 1.5".
I'm not sure what the current scanner technology is like, but not so long ago
consumer-grade stuff just wouldn't handle that kind of density; even the ones
coming somewhere close were relying on lots of interpolation rather than raw
resolution.
I know the
group has hashed and rehashed fiche scanning and I don't
mean to re-open that debate. Obviously fiche scanners exist,
reinventing the wheel isn't cost effective, etc, etc. It's
unfortunate that there's so much manual fiddling to get a good scan,
but those letters are awful tiny.
Ethan, there is a way to easily scan these fiches if a normal scanner
with negative/transparency adapter doesn't fit the bill Anyway, is a slow and troublesome way to scan them.
Is there an
automatic scanner?
Ones that'll handle the resolution are around, but probably with dollar price
tags in the five-figure range. (Again, it was a few years ago I looked into
this, so my knowledge is a little out of date)
Somewhere in there archives there's a whole thread on this (Bletchley has
many, many boxes of DEC fiche)
cheers
Jules
4:36 p.m.
New subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70)
On 4/14/09, Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:
I think that's still accurate information.
Alexandre Souza wrote:
with
negative/transparency adapter doesn't fit the bill
No. Check the list archives for endless discussion of the issue.
I know
the group has hashed and rehashed fiche scanning and I don't
mean to re-open that debate. Obviously fiche scanners exist,
reinventing the wheel isn't cost effective, etc, etc. It's
unfortunate that there's so much manual fiddling to get a good scan,
but those letters are awful tiny.
Ethan, there is a way to easily scan these fiches if a normal scanner The DEC ones I've seen are extremely high
resolution - from memory,
something like 11 x 13 A4 pages on a fiche around 1" x 1.5".
I don't remember the numbers, but, yes, they are high density and high
resolution.
I'm not sure what the current scanner technology
is like, but not so long
ago consumer-grade stuff just wouldn't handle that kind of density; even the
ones coming somewhere close were relying on lots of interpolation rather
than raw resolution.
I am reasonably certain that the individual letters are small enough
that even "modern" consumer grade scanning gear will make a hash of
things.
Please note that at no time did I ever propose using anything other
than professional grade gear on these fiche. I remember the endless
debates and I wasn't trying to suggest that we've miraculously come
into an era of new techniques.
Consumer-grade hardware has gotten lots cheaper (my first scanner was
$800), but the quality has bottomed-out to "adequate to make copies
for later reprinting". Slide scanners are pretty good these days, but
they are optimized for a 35mm frame, and even then the attention is on
color reproduction and dust/scratch elimination, not resolving details
a few hundred microns across.
Anyway, is a
slow and troublesome way to scan them. Is there an
automatic scanner?
Ones that'll handle the resolution are around, but probably with dollar
price tags in the five-figure range. (Again, it was a few years ago I looked
into this, so my knowledge is a little out of date) Somewhere in there archives there's a whole
thread on this (Bletchley has
many, many boxes of DEC fiche)
Yep. Anyone who wants to make a "suggestion" should check the
archives to see what was already proposed before.
-ethan
7:17 p.m.
New subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec'sfor 11/70)
The DEC ones I've seen are extremely high
resolution - from memory,
something
like 11 x 13 A4 pages on a fiche around 1" x 1.5".
I'm not sure what the current scanner technology is like, but not so long
ago
consumer-grade stuff just wouldn't handle that kind of density; even the
ones
coming somewhere close were relying on lots of interpolation rather than
raw
resolution.
There IS something that can be done, although very troublesome.
You have the reader. It projects a fairly good image on the screen. Why
not turn the lamp of the scanner off and scan the screen? :o)
15 Apr
15 Apr
12:04 p.m.
New subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec'sfor 11/70)
On Tue, 2009-04-14 16:17:26 -0300, Alexandre Souza <alexandre-listas at
e-secure.com.br> wrote:
Today's consumer grade scanners seem to not work that way. About a
year ago, I removed the glass of my (IIRC) Canon CanoScan LiDE 60.
Without the glass, I didn't get anything out of the scanner except
a complete solid black page...
MfG, JBG
--
Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481
Signature of: ...und wenn Du denkst, es geht nicht mehr,
the second : kommt irgendwo ein Lichtlein her.
The DEC ones
I've seen are extremely high resolution - from
memory, something like 11 x 13 A4 pages on a fiche around 1" x
1.5". I'm not sure what the current scanner technology is like,
but not so long ago consumer-grade stuff just wouldn't handle that
kind of density; even the ones coming somewhere close were relying
on lots of interpolation rather than raw resolution.
You have the reader. It projects a fairly good image on the screen.
Why not turn the lamp of the scanner off and scan the screen? :o) 
12:23 p.m.
New subject: Addon Microsystems information...
Hi,
Sorry if this is a second post. I posted this question last week
to the list, but never saw it get posted out for all to read.
I am looking for any information or contact info for a small company
from around 82-84 called Addon Microsystems, they were
a CA. company
that developed a CP/M box for Atari.
Thanks,
Curt
12:28 p.m.
New subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70)
On Tue, 2009-04-14 10:52:00 -0500, Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at
gmail.com> wrote:
The DEC ones I've seen are extremely high resolution - from memory,
something like 11 x 13 A4 pages on a fiche around 1" x 1.5".
If this is right, then there's a scale factor of about 1:90 to 1:100
involved. That should tell everybody why even a good consumer-grade
scanner will not do the job. To get the equivalent of a 300dpi scan,
you'd need to have about 30000dpi. Nothing any el-cheapo scanner could
handle. (Let alone the problem of getting the sheet properly into the
light's focus.)
MfG, JBG
--
Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481
Signature of: Gib Dein Bestes. Dann ?bertriff Dich selbst!
the second :
12:53 p.m.
New subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70)
Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote:
On Tue, 2009-04-14 10:52:00 -0500, Jules Richardson
<jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:
you are confusing linear pixel density with areal pixel density.
the 11"x13" fitting in 1"x1.5" implies a 11:1 scaling in density, so
300
dpi would be 3300 dpi. still very high for typical consumer grade
scanners. I believe 2400 dpi actual (not interpolated) is available on
decent models, though.
The DEC ones I've seen are extremely high
resolution - from memory,
something like 11 x 13 A4 pages on a fiche around 1" x 1.5".
If this is right, then there's a scale factor of about 1:90 to 1:100
involved. That should tell everybody why even a good consumer-grade
scanner will not do the job. To get the equivalent of a 300dpi scan,
you'd need to have about 30000dpi. Nothing any el-cheapo scanner could
handle. (Let alone the problem of getting the sheet properly into the
light's focus.)
1:11 p.m.
New subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70)
On Wed, 2009-04-15 07:53:25 -0500, Jim Battle <frustum at pacbell.net> wrote:
Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote:
I don't--but I'm reading the initial comment different than you.
I'm reading: "On the fiches, they fit 11x13 (=143) A4 pages into an
area of 1"x1.5"=1.5in?."
So in the top-bottom direction, we have:
(11 * 297mm) : 1.5" = 3267mm : 38.1mm ? 85.75 : 1
...and for the left-right direction:
(13 * 210mm) : 1" = 2730mm : 25.4mm ? 107.48 : 1
MfG, JBG
--
Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481
Signature of: 23:53 <@jbglaw> So, ich kletter' jetzt mal ins Bett.
the second : 23:57 <@jever2> .oO( kletter ..., hat er noch Gitter vorm Bett, wie
fr?her meine Kinder?)
00:00 <@jbglaw> jever2: *patsch*
00:01 <@jever2> *aua*, wof?r, Gedanken sind frei!
00:02 <@jbglaw> Nee, freie Gedanken, die sind seit 1984 doch aus!
00:03 <@jever2> 1984? ich bin erst seit 1985 verheiratet!
On Tue, 2009-04-14 10:52:00 -0500, Jules
Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:
you are confusing linear pixel density with areal pixel density.
the 11"x13" fitting in 1"x1.5" implies a 11:1 scaling in density, so
300 dpi would be 3300 dpi. still very high for typical consumer
grade scanners. I believe 2400 dpi actual (not interpolated) is
available on decent models, though. The DEC ones I've seen are extremely high
resolution - from
memory, something like 11 x 13 A4 pages on a fiche around 1" x
1.5".
If this is right, then there's a scale factor of about 1:90 to
1:100 involved. That should tell everybody why even a good
consumer-grade scanner will not do the job. To get the equivalent
of a 300dpi scan, you'd need to have about 30000dpi. Nothing any
el-cheapo scanner could handle. (Let alone the problem of getting
the sheet properly into the light's focus.) 
1:59 p.m.
New subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec'sfor 11/70)
Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote:
could
I think the confusion is in: 'on a fiche around 1" x 1.5"'
J-B read that as the size of the whole fiche (with lots of A4 images on it). I think you
actually meant that each page image is that size.
The truth is most likely in between: page images (on DEC fiche at least) are a bit smaller
than that, and also they are usually images of line printer size pages (A3, not A4). So a
2400 dpi scanner is about a factor 3x too low for acceptable quality. (And yes, that
ignores other issues like ability to hold the fiche flat enough and focus well enough.)
paul
On Tue, 2009-04-14 10:52:00 -0500, Jules
Richardson
<jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:
The DEC
ones I've seen are extremely high resolution - from memory,
something like 11 x 13 A4 pages on a fiche around 1" x 1.5".
If this is right, then there's a scale factor of about 1:90 to 1:100
involved. That should tell everybody why even a good consumer-grade
scanner will not do the job. To get the equivalent of a 300dpi scan,
you'd need to have about 30000dpi. Nothing any el-cheapo scanner handle. (Let alone the problem of getting the
sheet properly into the
light's focus.)
you are confusing linear pixel density with areal pixel density.
the 11"x13" fitting in 1"x1.5" implies a 11:1 scaling in density, so
300
dpi would be 3300 dpi. still very high for typical consumer grade
scanners. I believe 2400 dpi actual (not interpolated) is available on
decent models, though. 
14 Apr
14 Apr
3:53 p.m.
New subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70)
Alexandre Souza wrote:
Anyway, is a slow and troublesome way to scan them.
Is there an
automatic scanner?
Yes, there are step and repeat scanners made by companies like Canon
and Mekel. They are expensive. I have a first generation model Mekel
that I paid over 10 thousand dollars for (which is a fraction of its
new price). DEC used very small frames which require a lot of fiddling
to get the parameters set correctly. Scanning services exist, but the
test scans I got from them were not well aligned.
I have fiche for most of the RSX and VMS releases up through 5.0, and
several sets of the blue FE fiche kits, layered products, etc, etc but
it takes a VERY long time to do anything with them. Since I can scan
thousands of pages of paper per day, guess what gets done?
The "low cost" (ie. 1000$) scanners are modified desktop fiche readers
that work like the xerographic fiche printers (mirror which flips to
a drum) and are manual positioning.
As I've found with paper scanners, the low-cost ones are barely usable.
You need to find a "pro" one used to get any sort of throughput, then
enjoy expensive or non-existant hardware support (the Panasonic KV-S3065
I'm using now is the first scanner I've had that I was able to get a real
service manual for) and expensive software (the blueprint scanning software
cost as much as I paid for the scanner).
5:11 p.m.
New subject: Fiche scanning
Al Kossow wrote:
...
Yes, there are step and repeat scanners made by
companies like Canon
and Mekel. They are expensive. I have a first generation model Mekel
that I paid over 10 thousand dollars for (which is a fraction of its
new price). DEC used very small frames which require a lot of fiddling
to get the parameters set correctly. Scanning services exist, but the
test scans I got from them were not well aligned.
This might be way off base since I don't know the particulars, but is it
not possible to overscan each page and then crop after it is in digital
form? Why spend a long time fiddling trying to center and align each
page optically?
Also, I'd be willing to kick into a fund to hire a kid to sit and do the
fiddly stuff, and I bet others would too. There is no reason for you to
spend your time doing monkey work, Al. Sitting around listening to
music doing a non-taxing work for $10/hr would be a dream job, it seems,
for a typical 14 year old.
5:56 p.m.
On Tue, 14 Apr 2009, Alexandre Souza wrote:
Ethan, there is a way to easily scan these fiches if
a normal scanner with
negative/transparency adapter doesn't fit the bill
A digital camera in front of the reader, page after page, in a darkened
room would do miracles. A professional (high-quality, etc) DV camera feeding
directly a computer in front of the reader also would do miracles.
I've had this done for me for some historical fiche for something I'm
writing. The photo's were taken with a 6MP Nikon D70s. It works, but it is
far from ideal. Still it is preferable to the cost of printing out the
individual sheets if you have someone that will be visiting a library with a
copy of the fiche you need. Room illumination would have been standard for
the library the fiche was at.
To do it right, even this solution isn't cheap. You need a good camera with
either a remote, or wired trigger, and the camera needs to be on a tripod.
I have my doubts this would work well for anything like source code fiche.
DEC fiche tends to be very small.
Zane
3:54 p.m.
New subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70)
On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 9:09 AM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
On 4/14/09, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>
wrote:
Even a decent, older fiche scanner can bring over $15kUS for the
complete package, with brand new models going anywhere from $30k to
$50k or higher for one with moderate bells and whistles. But they're
built to do a paritcular job, and they do it well. The data density
on microfiche ranges from moderate, say 100 8.5x11 source pages per
fiche, up to several hundred pages per fiche. To be able to scan such
a broad range and still pick out the characters reliably is quite a
feat.
A big part of the problem with scanning tech docs from fiche lies in
the fact that it's difficult to lays hands on high quality duplicates.
Silver originals or even silver duplicates would be the best case
scenario, but don't really see them being made available for scanning.
Companies are reluctant enough to release master copies for first
generation duplication.
All of that having been said, I do have direct access to a fiche
scanner. Given decent, consistant fiche, it takes just over a minute
to scan a full fiche, at 300dpi (original. Scan an 8.5x11 image from
a fiche, print it back out at 300dpi, and you'll have an 8.5x11
document), bitonal. Greyscale takes a bit longer, but is sometimes
well worth the extra time investment. If anyone is interested, I can
entertain work requests as side-jobs. However, I cannot do it for
free. I still have to pay a use fee to my company for use of the
equipment.
If anyone is interested, contact me at this email address (
wulfcub at gmail.com )
--Shaun
--
"If you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be a hundred minus
one day, so I never have to live without you." -- Winnie The Pooh
http://www.lungs4amber.org
I have all of the diag listing on fiche. The
scanner that I have is a bit
difficult to use, so it takes about an hour per sheet to set up and scan.
Wow. That's fiddly. I can understand things being difficult - the
information density on a fiche is rather high. 
5:11 p.m.
New subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70)
I have fiche of the System/34 SSP. I keep wanting to make an emulator
with it someday. I gather it isn't rare because it came from a service
bureau.
On Apr 14, 2009, at 9:09 AM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
On 4/14/09, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>
wrote:
I have all of the diag listing on fiche. The
scanner that I have is
a bit
difficult to use, so it takes about an hour per sheet to set up and
scan.
Wow. That's fiddly. I can understand things being difficult - the
information density on a fiche is rather high.
Speaking of fiche scanning, I was going through some boxes last week
and ran across the source fiche for VMS 2.0. I know it's far from the
only copy in the world, but it did make me wonder if anyone has an
electronic copy. It'd be a hell of an OCR project (or an interesting
Captcha dataset), but even scans could be interesting to read through.
What I have is one 3-ring binder with a special fiche-storage insert -
you can read the top 1/4" to see that you have the right fiche, and
the lower 90% is protected from dust and scratches. There's at least
20 fiche to a "page" in the notebook, and it's one or two
"pages".
Elsewhere, I know I have VMS 4.0 and probably other versions of source
fiche. Of course, I do have a reader (more than one), but looking at
things on a modern machine without having to go to where the gear is,
make room to set the reader up, etc., means that most of the time, the
fiche just sit - no casual browsing and no easy way to share or
preserve the contents.
I know the group has hashed and rehashed fiche scanning and I don't
mean to re-open that debate. Obviously fiche scanners exist,
reinventing the wheel isn't cost effective, etc, etc. It's
unfortunate that there's so much manual fiddling to get a good scan,
but those letters are awful tiny.
If I were on the left coast, I might consider volunteering to drive
the scanner just to be able to share the results. I have a pile of
fiche myself, mostly from the late 1970s through the mid-1980s, IBM
and DEC docs primarily, and it would be great to know that it's not
only accessible as slivers of film.
-ethan
15 Apr
15 Apr
12:08 p.m.
New subject: Fiche scanning (was Re: [Simh] Listings of XXDP test and maindec's for 11/70)
On Tue, 2009-04-14 10:09:20 -0400, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
On 4/14/09, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>
wrote:
I've just checked out a nearby University's web site. They *seem* to
offer access to a microfilm/-fiche scanner that can output to USB
(whatever that means)--without any cost. As my girlfriens gives lectures
there, I'll have a look at what they actually offer.
MfG, JBG
--
Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481
Signature of: 23:53 <@jbglaw> So, ich kletter' jetzt mal ins Bett.
the second : 23:57 <@jever2> .oO( kletter ..., hat er noch Gitter vorm Bett, wie
fr?her meine Kinder?)
00:00 <@jbglaw> jever2: *patsch*
00:01 <@jever2> *aua*, wof?r, Gedanken sind frei!
00:02 <@jbglaw> Nee, freie Gedanken, die sind seit 1984 doch aus!
00:03 <@jever2> 1984? ich bin erst seit 1985 verheiratet!
I have all of the diag listing on fiche. The
scanner that I have is a bit
difficult to use, so it takes about an hour per sheet to set up and scan.
Wow. That's fiddly. I can understand things being difficult - the
information density on a fiche is rather high.
Speaking of fiche scanning, I was going through some boxes last week
and ran across the source fiche for VMS 2.0. I know it's far from the
only copy in the world, but it did make me wonder if anyone has an
electronic copy. It'd be a hell of an OCR project (or an interesting
Captcha dataset), but even scans could be interesting to read through.
5747
days inactive
5748
days old
17 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
alexandre-listas＠e-secure.com.br -
curt＠atarimuseum.com -
dseagrav＠lunar-tokyo.net -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
frustum＠pacbell.net -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jbglaw＠lug-owl.de -
jules.richardson99＠gmail.com -
jws＠jwsss.com -
Paul_Koning＠Dell.com -
wulfcub＠gmail.com