4 Aug
2004
4 Aug
'04
4:48 a.m.
Dan, I'll forward your message to the Classic Computer Collector
mailing list at http://www.classiccmp.org/cctalk.html . There are
many people there who might be able to help.
- John
At 07:39 AM 8/4/2004, "Dan Chambers" <dchambers(a)shapemastertool.com>
wrote:
To Whom It May Concern:
I have a PDP-8 that’s down and about all I’m good for is swapping boards. Do
you know anything about these systems or do you know anyone who would. I need to get mine
repaired.
Thanks,
Dan Chambers
Technical Support and Tooling Engineer
Plant 888-PCD-PCBN (723-7226)
Cell 815-766-0775
Fax 815-522-6229
4 Aug
4 Aug
5:43 a.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
I'd love to be able to read, write and archive my old 8 floppies, too.
I'd once day-dreamed of getting a Compaticard and dedicating an old PC
to the task.
But as a file-format geek, I always thought a central part of the
nut to crack was a metafile format. Archiving real-world antique
floppies means some of them are going to have bad sectors. (Let's
leave copy-protection errors aside for a moment.) You need an
archiving file format that can record the fact of the known error.
It would also be handy to have a way to store corresponding info
such as a description of the disk's contents, as if you'd be
able to store the label along with the archived disk image.
- John
6:39 a.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
On Wed, 2004-08-04 at 14:43, John Foust wrote:
You need an
archiving file format that can record the fact of the known error.
Odd, but I was thinking exactly the same thing earlier.
My other random thought was that storage is cheap these days - is it
desirable to include the file format spec itself as part of the file
format? :-)
If you're going to be storing a few hundred KB of data (or tens of KB at
least) on modern hardware, then a few KB of ASCII within the file
explaining the structure is no hardship. Then in x years time when
someone's long since lost any supporting documentation, at least all
they need to do is view the data in a text editor and it'll tell them
the structure. Personally I wouldn't mind a few % of overhead on each
file.
Taking it a step further, if there's room to define the data format
(filesystem) on the original disc too, then all the better!
It would also be handy to have a way to store
corresponding info
such as a description of the disk's contents, as if you'd be
able to store the label along with the archived disk image.
yep, and of course what system it's for, the date the archive was
created, name / (possibly) contact info for the person who the floppy
came from, version of the archive program used to create the archive
etc.
In the days when disk storage is aimed at people saving huge audio and
video files, 'wasteful' metadata for an archived floppy image doesn't
seem to much of a problem to me, not when it might prove useful to
someone in the years to come (possibly long after the hardware itself's
disappeared off the map)
Preferably I'd like something to cope not just with floppy images, but
hard disk images too, ROM images, and possibly even scans of paper
documentation.
Some sort of tagged system springs to mind; the fact that binary and
ACSII data is being mixed suggests that maybe all the binary data should
come toward the end of the file as a continuous block, with some sort of
table as part of the file metadata information defining file offsets /
lengths for different chunks of binary data (whether they be disk
sectors or whatever). No, that's not very editable, but then this is an
archive format and not designed to be changed once created anyway.
cheers
Jules
9:25 a.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, John Foust wrote:
But as a file-format geek, I always thought a central
part of the
nut to crack was a metafile format. Archiving real-world antique
floppies means some of them are going to have bad sectors. (Let's
leave copy-protection errors aside for a moment.) You need an
archiving file format that can record the fact of the known error.
Here's a paper I wrote for a presentation I have at an archaeology
conference in Austria:
http://www.vintage.org/content.php?id=004
The idea was Hans' to begin with and I ran with it. We discussed it to
some length on the list several years back. I hope we can get back to
making this a reality at some point.
It would also be handy to have a way to store
corresponding info
such as a description of the disk's contents, as if you'd be
able to store the label along with the archived disk image.
That's described in the paper.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
5 Aug
5 Aug
11:20 p.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, John Foust wrote:
I'd love to be able to read, write and archive my
old 8 floppies, too.
I'd once day-dreamed of getting a Compaticard and dedicating an old PC
to the task.
I use the onboard FDC on my Asus Pentium 100 board which works fine in
FM, too. Or use any standard HDC/FDC combi card with e.g. WD37C65, DP8374
or the like that are able to handle FM.
But as a file-format geek, I always thought a central
part of the
nut to crack was a metafile format. Archiving real-world antique
floppies means some of them are going to have bad sectors. (Let's
leave copy-protection errors aside for a moment.) You need an
archiving file format that can record the fact of the known error.
It would also be handy to have a way to store corresponding info
such as a description of the disk's contents, as if you'd be
able to store the label along with the archived disk image.
This already exists since more than 10 years now and is called TeleDisk,
also try AnaDisk to analyse foreign disks, both programs can be found
everywhere on the net.
Christian
8 Aug
8 Aug
11:34 a.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
But as a
file-format geek, I always thought a central part of the
nut to crack was a metafile format. Archiving real-world antique
floppies means some of them are going to have bad sectors. (Let's
leave copy-protection errors aside for a moment.) You need an
archiving file format that can record the fact of the known error.
It would also be handy to have a way to store corresponding info
such as a description of the disk's contents, as if you'd be
able to store the label along with the archived disk image.
This already exists since more than 10 years now and is called TeleDisk, also try AnaDisk to analyse foreign disks, both
programs can be found
everywhere on the net.
Only if you happen to run an MS-DOS PC.
-tony
6:31 p.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 21:34:24 +0100 (BST)
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
As far as I know the format of a Teledisk archive file has never been
officially documented. IMHO that makes it totally unsuitable to use as
a portable archibe format. And I don't think it covers things like GCR
recording, sectors with headers recorded at a different density to the
data, hard sectored disks, and so on.
Not to start a flame-war, but we're talking about methods using various
equipment to archive and/or analyze foreign diskettes. 'Running an
MS-DOS machine' amounts to having one somewhere in the shop you can use
for this kind of specialized work. If you detest Microsoft, use DR-DOS
or FreeDOS or any of the alternatives. Obviously nobody (or barely
anybody) 'runs' an MS-DOS machine as a primary workstation in this day
and age. It would make sense, though, to recognize that a machine like
that is useful for a few occasional purposes and not 'boycott' them for
some high-and-holy reason.
But as a file-format geek, I always thought a central
part of the
nut to crack was a metafile format. Archiving real-world antique
floppies means some of them are going to have bad sectors. (Let's
leave copy-protection errors aside for a moment.) You need an
archiving file format that can record the fact of the known error.
It would also be handy to have a way to store corresponding info
such as a description of the disk's contents, as if you'd be
able to store the label along with the archived disk image.
This already exists since more than 10 years now and is called
TeleDisk, also try AnaDisk to analyse foreign disks, both
programs can be
found everywhere on the net.
Only if you happen to run an MS-DOS PC.
7:45 p.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
On Sun, 8 Aug 2004, Scott Stevens wrote:
On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 21:34:24 +0100 (BST)
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
As far as I know the format of a Teledisk archive file has never been
officially documented. IMHO that makes it totally unsuitable to use as
a portable archibe format. And I don't think it covers things like GCR
recording, sectors with headers recorded at a different density to the
data, hard sectored disks, and so on.
Not to start a flame-war, but we're talking about methods using various
equipment to archive and/or analyze foreign diskettes. 'Running an
MS-DOS machine' amounts to having one somewhere in the shop you can use
for this kind of specialized work. If you detest Microsoft, use DR-DOS
or FreeDOS or any of the alternatives. Obviously nobody (or barely
anybody) 'runs' an MS-DOS machine as a primary workstation in this day
and age. It would make sense, though, to recognize that a machine like
that is useful for a few occasional purposes and not 'boycott' them for
some high-and-holy reason.
Tony's point is very well taken, and you seem to have missed it, and
substituted something else that Tony did not even imply.
First of all, a pure DOS computer is a VERY handy tool to have around. At
least it is for me. There's a lot you can do with a simple DOS box and
some good tools (like ProComm for example).
But to use Teledisk as the de facto standard for archiving floppy disks
would be an awful mistake, not the least of which is because Teledisk, as
Tony rightly pointed out, does not deal at all with GCR disk formats.
Any format that is going to be adopted as the de facto standard for
archiving disks (and other media) must be able to handle ANY format, and
must also be OPEN, DOCUMENTED, and most importantly, NON-PROPRIETARY.
I think this is pretty much what Tony said.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
But as a file-format geek, I always thought a central
part of the
nut to crack was a metafile format. Archiving real-world antique
floppies means some of them are going to have bad sectors. (Let's
leave copy-protection errors aside for a moment.) You need an
archiving file format that can record the fact of the known error.
It would also be handy to have a way to store corresponding info
such as a description of the disk's contents, as if you'd be
able to store the label along with the archived disk image.
This already exists since more than 10 years now and is called
TeleDisk, also try AnaDisk to analyse foreign disks, both
programs can be
found everywhere on the net.
Only if you happen to run an MS-DOS PC.
9 Aug
9 Aug
12:59 p.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
Tony's point is very well taken, and you seem to
have missed it, and
substituted something else that Tony did not even imply.
First of all, a pure DOS computer is a VERY handy tool to have around. At
Agreed. I will admit to running an MS-DOS machine here (actually, I run
several, but most of them are totally non-PC-compatible, things like the
DEC Rainbow, HP110, HP150, etc). And yes, I do use it.
But I don't want to _depend_ on it. In other words while I use it, and
while it is often the most convenient tool to use for what I use it for,
I don't save data in a format that requires that I use a PC to recover
it. I could, in principle, write a program to interpret the file on any
machine that was capable of physically reading the media.
least it is for me. There's a lot you can do with
a simple DOS box and
some good tools (like ProComm for example).
But to use Teledisk as the de facto standard for archiving floppy disks
would be an awful mistake, not the least of which is because Teledisk, as
Tony rightly pointed out, does not deal at all with GCR disk formats.
Does it handle single density disks correctly?
What about controllers at a non-standard address (Modern PC controllers
handle a maximum of 2 drives, but you'd probably want to have at least a
5.25" 40 cylinder (360K), a 5.25" 80 cylinder (probably a high density
one), a 3.5" 80 cylinder, mybe a 35." 40 cylinder (yes they do exist!), 8"
single sided, 8" double sided, 3" single-head 'flippy' , 3" double
head,
and maybe even things like 3.25".
Any format that is going to be adopted as the de facto standard for
archiving disks (and other media) must be able to handle ANY format, and
must also be OPEN, DOCUMENTED, and most importantly, NON-PROPRIETARY.
I think this is pretty much what Tony said.
Indeed it was, even if I didn't express myself clearly.
My objection is not to PCs, it's not that people use PCs (I do so
myself). It is that I don't want to be _forced_ to use a PC. And I
certainly don't want to find a PC in 20 or so years time to recover the data.
If the format is open and documented, then if you, say, want to archive
an Apple ][ disk, then the Apple ][ can read the disk and squirt the
archive data over a serial port to, say, a PC. It can then be saved on
disk there, in a docuemtned format that could either be sent back to
another Apple ][, or used with a software emulator, or used with a
programt that could extract infromation from the archive (say it could
turn a printable text file into a PC text file).
To give some idea of what I mean (and this is no way a universal
solution) you might look at my LIF Utilities for Linux (on the HPCC web
site). This is an ongoing project which started off as a way to archive
HP9114 disk images (the disk drive used with the HP41/HP71/HP75
calculators) on a linux PC. It then grew, with me adding filters to turn
HP LIF1 format text files into normal text files, to produce printable
listings of HP41 programs, and so on. And I'll add more when I have time.
OK, I used a linux PC _but I documented everything_ (and open-sourced the
progrmas for that matter). If you don't like linux, well, don't expect me
to write a version for your chosen OS or computer. But I have given you
the information to write it yourself -- the file formats are all
documented.
-tony
2:04 p.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
On Mon, Aug 09, 2004 at 10:59:10PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
maybe a 3.5" 40 cylinder (yes they do exist!)...
Yee-Data 600? At SRC, we had some blocky 3.5" drive that is twice as tall as
"modern" 3.5" drives on one of our own proprietary
routerish-terminalserverish
boxes that never hit the market (architected by Dr. John Goltz of CompuServe,
no less). I'm pretty sure it was a Yee-Data drive, and it was old enough
(c. 1983 or 1984) that it might not have been an 80 track drive. I still have
one or two up in the attic from when we scrapped the project (along with the
motherboards, etc... it was 68000-based, with a 68451 MMU... not a common part)
Fun boxes - kinda of a next-generation version of what CompuServe tied their
network together with. Given the timeframe that it was under development,
it might have made an impact in the market had it been released. We did the
software prototyping on some Godbout S-100 boxes (long since been given away
to a new home).
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 09-Aug-2004 22:50 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -84.9 F (-64.9 C) Windchill -126.1 F (-87.90 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 11.6 kts Grid 055 Barometer 673.1 mb (10888. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
2:50 p.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
On Mon, 9 Aug 2004, Tony Duell wrote:
What about controllers at a non-standard address
(Modern PC controllers
handle a maximum of 2 drives, but you'd probably want to have at least a
5.25" 40 cylinder (360K), a 5.25" 80 cylinder (probably a high density
one), a 3.5" 80 cylinder, mybe a 35." 40 cylinder (yes they do exist!),
The 3.5" 40 cylinder drives certainly exist.
They were available for the Epson Geneva PX-8 (3.5" DS 40 cyl)
Also, IIRC, the first "portable disk drive" for the Tandy 100 was
40 cylinder (but NOT MFM)
8"single sided, 8" double sided, 3"
single-head 'flippy' , 3" double head,
and maybe even things like 3.25".
The only machine that I've seen that came with a 3.25"
(not retrofitted later) was Seequa Chameleon 325.
Dysan bet the company on 3.25" and LOST. Most of the
really major software was available on 3.25", but not
computers that used them.
If you use software that accesses the drive at the BIOS level,
or below, then you can hook up a LOT of drives (2 at a time)
with a rotary switch on the drive select lines.
--
Fred Cisin cisin(a)xenosoft.com
XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com
12:46 p.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
also try AnaDisk to analyse foreign disks, both
programs can be
found everywhere on the net.
Only if you happen to run an MS-DOS PC.
MS-DOS machine' amounts to having one somewhere in
the shop you can use
for this kind of specialized work. If you detest Microsoft, use DR-DOS
or FreeDOS or any of the alternatives. Obviously nobody (or barely
anybody) 'runs' an MS-DOS machine as a primary workstation in this day
and age. It would make sense, though, to recognize that a machine like
that is useful for a few occasional purposes and not 'boycott' them for
some high-and-holy reason.
So what happens in 20 years time when you want to recover the data from
one of these Teledisk archive files, and when there are no suitable PCs
left running (PC hardware is notoriosuly badly docuemnted and therefore
difficult to maintain -- have you ever seen official schematics to a PC
later than a 286?). Sorry, but if I want to achive data, I want the
format of the archive to be fully documented so that I can recover it on
whatever machine I have access to.
-tony
10 Aug
10 Aug
2:46 a.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
At 10:46 PM 8/9/04 +0100, you wrote:
Not to start a flame-war, but we're talking about methods using various
equipment to archive and/or analyze foreign diskettes. 'Running an
AFAIK, Teledisk only handles 'standard' disk controllers. It wouldn't
work with a Catweasel card, for example. Which immediately limits the
disks it can be used with.
I'm no expert on disk but IIRC there's NO software for the Catweasel
except what you write yourself so why does the make Teledisk any less
appealing?
I have a 20+ plus year old PC that runs just fine. I've passed up
HUNDREDs more that also worked fine. In fact, I've seen almost none that
didn't work.
(PC hardware is notoriosuly badly docuemnted and therefore
also try
AnaDisk to analyse foreign disks, both programs can be
found everywhere on the net.
Only if you happen to run an MS-DOS PC.
MS-DOS machine' amounts to having one
somewhere in the shop you can use
for this kind of specialized work. If you detest Microsoft, use DR-DOS
or FreeDOS or any of the alternatives. Obviously nobody (or barely
anybody) 'runs' an MS-DOS machine as a primary workstation in this day
and age. It would make sense, though, to recognize that a machine like
that is useful for a few occasional purposes and not 'boycott' them for
some high-and-holy reason.
So what happens in 20 years time when you want to recover the data from
one of these Teledisk archive files, and when there are no suitable PCs
left running difficult to maintain
Bah! The PC is probably THE best documented computer out there. Name
another company that produced as thorough a Tech Ref as IBM. Name another
comany that has produced and PUBLICLY sold as many service and parts
manuals as IBM has for the PC AND ALL OF IT'S ACCESSORIES AND PERIPHERALS.
Name another computer with as many choices of OS and as many versions,
including third party and public domain OSs. Name another computer that has
had THOUSANDS of third party books written about it. Name another computer
that has as much third party hardware and software support. List another
computer that you can go to ANY school in the modern world and take classes
on. Name another computer that was build with all standard TTL parts like
the original PC was. Finally name another computer that was sold in the
huge quantities and that you can find on EVERY continent like you can a PC.
You just don't like PCs and MS-DOS! You've told me that face to face
personally. Sure there are other computers that are smaller, bigger,
faster, that do X better, etc, etc, etc but in terms of just plain
availability and usefullness I'd pick a PC everytime.
-- have you ever seen official schematics to a PC
later than a 286?).
Then don't use a "later than 286" PC. That's one of the beauties of
the
PC family, it IS a family and there are many specific models to choose
from. Not only are there different models within IBM but there are many
different brands to choose from and they're all compatible with the
exception of a relatively few early machines.
Sorry, but if I want to achive data, I want the
format of the archive to be fully documented so that I can recover it on
whatever machine I have access to.
Yeah, like you're really going to get full documentation for that
CatWeasel card!
Joe
Joe
-tony
5:53 a.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
Name another computer with as many choices of OS and
as many
versions, including third party and public domain OSs.
Public domain? While admittedly I haven't specifically looked, I don't
think I've ever seen a public domain OS for anything, even for values
of "OS" as marginal as MS-DOS. (Not to detract from your basic point,
which I agree with - if there are public domain OSes out there, I would
expect most of them to be for peecees....)
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6:23 a.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
What about FreeDOS? Or they just call it that for kicks? There's also
Minux and Linux which may not technically public domain but they're
certainly free. I'm not sure about the older versions of DR-DOS but but I
seem to recall that they're in the public domain now too and I believe CPM
also is. Anybody know the status of CPM-86? The last that I heard MPM was
still being sold commercially but I expect that it may end up in the public
domain before long.
Joe
At 10:53 AM 8/10/04 -0400, you wrote:
Name another
computer with as many choices of OS and as many
versions, including third party and public domain OSs.
Public domain? While admittedly I haven't specifically looked, I don't
think I've ever seen a public domain OS for anything, even for values
of "OS" as marginal as MS-DOS. (Not to detract from your basic point,
which I agree with - if there are public domain OSes out there, I would
expect most of them to be for peecees....)
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7 a.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
Name another computer with as many choices of OS and
as many
versions, including third party and public domain OSs.
Public domain? While
admittedly I haven't specifically looked, I
don't think I've ever seen a public domain OS for anything,
9:12 a.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
At 12:00 PM 8/10/04 -0400, you wrote:
What about
FreeDOS? Or they just call it that for kicks?
I imagine they call it that because it's free, for some value of free.
While I was unable to find an explicit license in a brief poke around
the freedos pages, I pulled over their boot floppy image, and it's
certainly got enough copyright notices embedded in it. (This is rather
disturbing, since if it's copyrighted but with no license grant, it is
probably illegal to do anything with it in most jurisdictions.)
That's not my understanding. I've seen several pieces of software where
the author specificly stated the software was free but he also stated that
he had copyrighted it in order to keep people from making modifications and
then selling it as their own work. Wheather or not it's copyrighted
ultimatly has nothing to do with it's cost. It can be "freeware",
"shareware" or regular commercail software no matter what the copyright
status is.
Name another
computer with as many choices of OS and as many
versions, including third party and public domain OSs.
Public domain? While
admittedly I haven't specifically looked, I
don't think I've ever seen a public domain OS for anything,
Note that "public domain" is a specific legal term with a specific
meaning, and does not equal "free" for any of the common meanings of
"free" as applied to software.
I don't agree with the last part of your statement. To most people
Public Domain equates to free. "Public domain" means the "public" owns
it
legally but it's still free in that anyone can use it for free.
Joe
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9:19 a.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
(This is
rather disturbing, since if it's copyrighted but with no
license grant, it is probably illegal to do anything with it in most
jurisdictions.)
That's not my understanding. I've seen several pieces of
software
where the author specificly stated the software was free but he also
stated that he had copyrighted it in order to keep people from making
modifications and then selling it as their own work. Wheather or not it's copyrighted ultimatly has
nothing to do with
it's cost.
Oh, I wasn't talking about cost. If it's not in the public domain and
the copyright holder has not granted a license to do something with it,
then the only things it is legal to do with it are the things covered
by the fair use exemption, which are pretty specific and limited.
Note that
"public domain" is a specific legal term with a specific
meaning, and does not equal "free" for any of the common meanings of
"free" as applied to software.
I don't agree with the last part of
your statement. To most people
Public Domain equates to free. "Public domain" means the "public"
owns it legally but it's still free in that anyone can use it for
free.
9:55 a.m.
New subject: public domain v free (was: 8" floppy project
I don't agree with the last part of your
statement. To most people
Public Domain equates to free. "Public domain" means the "public"
owns it legally but it's still free in that anyone can use it for
free.
Yes, "public domain" (relinquishment of copyright ownership) is free.
But free is not necessarily public domain. There do exist some
things that are copyrighted, but available to the public for free.
Consider Richard Stallman. None of his stuff is public domain.
He retains copyright on it so that he can make restrictions on it.
Consider Shareware. Every shareware author who understands
the laws retains copyright. One major reason is that there
have been numerous cases of others hijacking the revenue stream!
Sometimes it is a case where somebody makes enhancements, and
then directs the donations/fees/payments to themselves -
consider S.E.A v Phil Katz.
Other times, there have been people who have done nothing more
than change the splash screen to redirect the money.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
1:34 p.m.
New subject: public domain v free (was: 8" floppy project
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, Fred Cisin wrote:
I am not so sure about that, Fred. Consider the case of the
shareware author who has 'withdrawn his product from shareware',
(someone likened it 'unringing the bell') declined to accept
further registrations, or provide support for the product, yet
made no active effort to remove it from general availability.
Has he not essentially abandoned his rights to any control over
usage of the product? The law has a principle Laches which
implies that if you wait too long to defend your rights you have
essentially lost them. There is also the principal of Estoppel
which is essentially 'you waited too long, quit your bitching'!
- don
I don't
agree with the last part of your statement. To most people
Public Domain equates to free. "Public domain" means the "public"
owns it legally but it's still free in that anyone can use it for
free.
Yes, "public domain" (relinquishment of copyright ownership) is free.
But free is not necessarily public domain. There do exist some
things that are copyrighted, but available to the public for free.
Consider Richard Stallman. None of his stuff is public domain.
He retains copyright on it so that he can make restrictions on it.
Consider Shareware. Every shareware author who understands
the laws retains copyright. One major reason is that there
have been numerous cases of others hijacking the revenue stream!
Sometimes it is a case where somebody makes enhancements, and
then directs the donations/fees/payments to themselves -
consider S.E.A v Phil Katz.
Other times, there have been people who have done nothing more
than change the splash screen to redirect the money. --
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
9:27 a.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
On Tuesday 10 August 2004 13:12, Joe R. wrote:
Again, "free" as applied to software a la "Free Software Foundation"
normally means "libre" not 0-cost. If you're equating "public
domain"
to "free," you haven't been paying attention to the movement started by
things like GNU, Linux, and *BSD.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
At 12:00 PM 8/10/04 -0400, you wrote:
I imagine they call it that because it's free, for some value of
free. While I was unable to find an explicit license in a brief
poke around the freedos pages, I pulled over their boot floppy
image, and it's certainly got enough copyright notices embedded in
it. (This is rather disturbing, since if it's copyrighted but with
no license grant, it is probably illegal to do anything with it in
most jurisdictions.)
That's not my understanding. I've seen several pieces of software
where the author specificly stated the software was free but he also
stated that he had copyrighted it in order to keep people from making
modifications and then selling it as their own work. Wheather or not
it's copyrighted ultimatly has nothing to do with it's cost. It can
be "freeware", "shareware" or regular commercail software no matter
what the copyright status is.
That statement is called a "license grant". You seem to be ignoring the
meaning of "free" that der Mouse is referring to -- free as in freedom
("libre"), not free as in 0-cost. "Free software" is not freeware,
shareware, or proprietary ("commercial") software. Public domain is
essentially "free software," as you can do whatever you want with it.
> Name another computer with as many choices of OS
and as many
> versions, including third party and public domain OSs.
Public domain? While admittedly I haven't specifically looked, I
don't think I've ever seen a public domain OS for anything,
What about FreeDOS? Or they just call it that for kicks? Note that
"public domain" is a specific legal term with a specific
meaning, and does not equal "free" for any of the common meanings of
"free" as applied to software.
I don't agree with the last part of your statement. To most people
Public Domain equates to free. "Public domain" means the "public"
owns it legally but it's still free in that anyone can use it for
free.
9:53 a.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
Pat,
I understand all that but go back and read the original statement which
specificly said "public domain". It never said free. You and mouse have
taken this whole thing well away from the original discussion and intent.
Joe
At 01:27 PM 8/10/04 -0500, you wrote:
On Tuesday 10 August 2004 13:12, Joe R. wrote:
Again, "free" as applied to software a la "Free Software Foundation"
normally means "libre" not 0-cost. If you're equating "public
domain"
to "free," you haven't been paying attention to the movement started by
things like GNU, Linux, and *BSD.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
At 12:00 PM 8/10/04 -0400, you wrote:
That's not my understanding. I've seen several pieces of software
where the author specificly stated the software was free but he also
stated that he had copyrighted it in order to keep people from making
modifications and then selling it as their own work. Wheather or not
it's copyrighted ultimatly has nothing to do with it's cost. It can
be "freeware", "shareware" or regular commercail software no matter
what the copyright status is.
That statement is called a "license grant". You seem to be ignoring the
meaning of "free" that der Mouse is referring to -- free as in freedom
("libre"), not free as in 0-cost. "Free software" is not freeware,
shareware, or proprietary ("commercial") software. Public domain is
essentially "free software," as you can do whatever you want with it.
>>
Name another computer with as many choices of OS and as many
>> versions, including third party and public domain OSs.
>
> Public domain? While admittedly I haven't specifically looked, I
> don't think I've ever seen a public domain OS for anything,
What about FreeDOS? Or they just call it that for kicks?
I imagine they call it that because it's free, for some value of
free. While I was unable to find an explicit license in a brief
poke around the freedos pages, I pulled over their boot floppy
image, and it's certainly got enough copyright notices embedded in
it. (This is rather disturbing, since if it's copyrighted but with
no license grant, it is probably illegal to do anything with it in
most jurisdictions.) Note that
"public domain" is a specific legal term with a specific
meaning, and does not equal "free" for any of the common meanings of
"free" as applied to software.
I don't agree with the last part of your statement. To most people
Public Domain equates to free. "Public domain" means the "public"
owns it legally but it's still free in that anyone can use it for
free. 
10:05 a.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
Back to 8" floppy drives...
I have a Shugart 851 8" drive (unknown condition, but was supposed
to be good last time it was used many years ago). Looks ok mechanically,
door opens/closes, moter can be turned, dusty. I have no way of testing
it further. It's just been sitting on a shelf for many years.
I have no use for it, so what is a fair price (+postage), and does
anyone want one?
12:43 p.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
Name another computer with as many choices of OS
and as many
versions, including third party and public domain OSs.
Public domain? While admittedly I haven't specifically looked, I don't
think I've ever seen a public domain OS for anything, even for values 
3:07 p.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell
<ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> writes:
> > Name another computer with as many choices of
OS and as many >
> versions, including third party and public domain OSs.
>
> Public domain? While admittedly I haven't specifically looked, I
> don't think I've ever seen a public domain OS for anything, even
> for values
Tony> Cheating a bit, but how about FIGforth? I believe it is truely
Tony> public domain, and as it runs on the bare metal, it could be
Tony> claimed to include the OS. I assume there was/is a version of
Tony> the 8088.
I think there are some old OSs that are public domain, presumably
unintentionally, because no copyright assertion was made at the time.
(That was when you had to do so to retain copyright -- something that
as I understand it is no longer true.)
CDC's first 6000 operating system COS (Chippewa OS) is apparently an
example of this.
paul
5:57 p.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
Tony Duell wrote:
Cheating a bit, but how about FIGforth? I believe it
is truely public
domain, and as it runs on the bare metal, it could be claimed to include
the OS. I assume there was/is a version of the 8088.
Yes, but try and find it today. Fig forth is for the 8080 and 6502 with I/O
supplied by the user and ASM source. While I suspect you can get a
version for the 8088 I don't expect you can get the source for it.
Read keyboard, test keyboard ready, print to screen, read disk block,
write disk block I think is all that is needed.
Ben.
PS did the Jupiter Ace ever have floppy disk?
6:13 p.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, ben franchuk wrote:
Yes, but try and find it today. Fig forth is for the
8080 and 6502 with I/O
supplied by the user and ASM source. While I suspect you can get a
version for the 8088 I don't expect you can get the source for it.
Read keyboard, test keyboard ready, print to screen, read disk block,
write disk block I think is all that is needed.
If that's all that you need, we can do it trivially with calls
to the BIOS ROM at Int16h, 16h, 10h, 13h, and 13h.
6:12 p.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
Fred Cisin wrote:
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004, ben franchuk wrote:
But then again is not the whole point is it not to bypass the BIOS?
Also I suspect fig-forth is limited to the tiny model on the 8088 with about
32k for the basic system.
Yes, but try and find it today. Fig forth is for
the 8080 and 6502 with I/O
supplied by the user and ASM source. While I suspect you can get a
version for the 8088 I don't expect you can get the source for it.
Read keyboard, test keyboard ready, print to screen, read disk block,
write disk block I think is all that is needed.
If that's all that you need, we can do it trivially with calls
to the BIOS ROM at Int16h, 16h, 10h, 13h, and 13h.
10:45 p.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
Hi,
ben franchuk <bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca> said:
Tony Duell wrote:
Versions of FIGForth were available for quite a few processors.
I've got it running on simh emulating a PDP-11 and I'll copy it
to my Micro 11/73 as soon as I can persuade it to read floppys
written by putr. I'm running it under RT-11 but it can be compiled
to run stand-alone.
It's quite possible that FigUK may have a FIG listing in their library
and I've possibly got a TRS-80 version somewhere.
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
Cheating a bit, but how about FIGforth? I believe
it is truely public
domain, and as it runs on the bare metal, it could be claimed to include
the OS. I assume there was/is a version of the 8088.
Yes, but try and find it today. Fig forth is for the 8080 and 6502 with I/O
supplied by the user and ASM source. While I suspect you can get a
version for the 8088 I don't expect you can get the source for it.
Read keyboard, test keyboard ready, print to screen, read disk block,
write disk block I think is all that is needed.
Ben.
11 Aug
11 Aug
4:25 a.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
>>>> "ben" == ben franchuk
<bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca> writes:
ben> Tony Duell wrote:
> Cheating a bit, but how about FIGforth? I believe
it is truely
> public domain, and as it runs on the bare metal, it could be
> claimed to include the OS. I assume there was/is a version of the
> 8088.
ben> Yes, but try and find it today. Fig forth is for the 8080 and
ben> 6502 with I/O supplied by the user and ASM source. While I
ben> suspect you can get a version for the 8088 I don't expect you
ben> can get the source for it. Read keyboard, test keyboard ready,
ben> print to screen, read disk block, write disk block I think is
ben> all that is needed.
I wonder if I still have the source on-line (I do have it on paper).
There's also ColorForth, which unfortunately doesn't seem to want to
boot on my modern PCs...
paul
1:41 p.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
Tony Duell wrote:
What did happen to all the FIGforth source listings? I am very suprised
they're not on an ftp site somewhere (but yes, I have looked :-()
Cheating a bit, but how about FIGforth? I believe
it is truely public
domain, and as it runs on the bare metal, it could be claimed to include
the OS. I assume there was/is a version of the 8088.
Yes, but try and find it today. Fig forth is for the 8080 and 6502 with I/O supplied by the user and ASM source. While I suspect
you can get a
It ran on a darn sight more than those 2 processors. There was certainly
a Z80-specific version (I bought the listing for that), a 6809 version, a
PDP11/LSI11 version, and probably a lot more.
PS did the Jupiter Ace ever have floppy disk?
Not offiically, but I wouldn't be suprised if somebody had hacked one on.
-tony
10 Aug
10 Aug
12:41 p.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
AFAIK, Teledisk
only handles 'standard' disk controllers. It wouldn't
work with a Catweasel card, for example. Which immediately limits the
disks it can be used with.
I'm no expert on disk but IIRC there's NO software for the Catweasel
except what you write yourself so why does the make Teledisk any less
appealing? So what happens
in 20 years time when you want to recover the data from
one of these Teledisk archive files, and when there are no suitable PCs
left running
I have a 20+ plus year old PC that runs just fine. I've passed up HUNDREDs more that also worked fine. In fact, I've
seen almost none that
didn't work.
You nave been _very lucky_
(PC hardware is notoriosuly badly docuemnted and
therefore
OK, trivial...
If you want both hardware and software documentation (i.e. schematics
_and ROM source code_) then the obvious ones are :
Apple : Apple ][ and Apple //e (and maybe other machines in that family).
I am told the IBM PC Techref was modelled on the Apple manuals.
HP : HP71B. I am sure you've read the complete IDS (I certainly have,
it's excellent). Incidentally, do you have the HP71 Forth IMS (Internal
Maintenance Specification)? It's very interesting.
Research Machines : RML380Z. It's a separate hardware 'Information File'
giving schematics, etc and a COS (Cassette Operating System) Source
listing. Admittedly I've never seen the latter (it was an optional
purchase), but it existed.
DEC : PDP11. The PDP11/45 CPU technical manual and printset (schematics)
are much better than the IBM Techref. You could get a source license for
the OS if you could afford it, too.
DEC : PDP8. I am not sure about the OS sources, but the hardware manuals,
at least for the 8/e are again excellent.
HEath/Zentih : H89/Z90. The manuals I got with my Z90 had schematics and
ROM source listings in them.
If you just want hardware docs (i.e. full schematics) and the programming
interface (i.e. not full ROM sources) then also :
HP : Portable+ , HP150, etc (and I assume the HP110). There are excellent
technical manuals for these machines
Acorn : BBC Micro, Archimedes, etc. Again, schematics are easy to obtain
either in 'Advanced User Guides' or service manuals
Raido Shack : All TRS-80s had service manuals available to anyone who
wanted to order them. And many had technical reference manuals available
as well.
Need I go on?
difficult to maintain
Bah! The PC is probably THE best documented computer out there. Name
another company that produced as thorough a Tech Ref as IBM. Name another comany that has produced and PUBLICLY sold as many
service and parts
manuals as IBM has for the PC AND ALL OF IT'S ACCESSORIES AND PERIPHERALS.
IBM service manuals (at least the Hardware Maintenance and Service manual
i have for my PC/AT) are boardswapper guides. They're pretty useless now,
they are totally useless when there are no more boards to swap.
Name another computer with as many choices of OS and
as many versions,
This has nothing to do with being able to maintain the machine.
including third party and public domain OSs. Name
another computer that has
had THOUSANDS of third party books written about it. Name another computer
And most of those books are not worth the paper they're printed on!
that has as much third party hardware and software
support. List another
computer that you can go to ANY school in the modern world and take classes
And do any of said classes actually cover the hardware at the chip level?
on. Name another computer that was build with all
standard TTL parts like
the original PC was. Finally name another computer that was sold in the
Firstly the PC wasn't built entirely from TTL. There are some standard
Intel chips (CPU, DMA controller, interrupt controller, etc). And of
course programemd ROMs.
If we allow those, then a partial list would be Apple ][, TRS80 Model 1,
Model 3, Model 4, Sinclair ZX80, Nascom, HH Tiger, TRS-80 CoCo 1, Dragon
32, Sage 2, Apricot, Sirius, etc, etc, etc
If you allow PALs, then you could even add the early Apple Macs to that
list, along with the PERQ 3a, Torch XXX, etc
If you want to move the goalposts and not allow LSI processors, then how
about PDP8/e, PDP11/10, PDP11/34, PDP11/45, (etc), Philps P850, Philips
P854. PERQs (all except for the 3a, although admittedly there are LSI
chips -- but not custom ones -- things like a Z80, NEC 765, etc -- on the
I/O card), HP9810/20/30, and many, many, more.
huge quantities and that you can find on EVERY
continent like you can a PC.
You just don't like PCs and MS-DOS! You've told me that face to face
Correct...
personally. Sure there are other computers that are
smaller, bigger,
faster, that do X better, etc, etc, etc but in terms of just plain
availability and usefullness I'd pick a PC everytime.
Fine... You use a PC, that's yuor choice. However, I am not so arrogant
as to want to impose my choices on the rest of the world. In other words,
the whole point of a universal archive format (let's not forget what this
thread is really about) is that you don't have to use a particular
machine. If you want to use a PC, fine, use a PC. You can write software
to create and process that archive format. If I want to use a PERQ, well,
I expect to have to write the software myself, but I can still do it. If
Sellam wants to use his Apple ][ (and can therefore read disks that
neither the PC or the PERQ can read) then he can do that.
Sorry, but if I
want to achive data, I want the
format of the archive to be fully documented so that I can recover it on
whatever machine I have access to.
Yeah, like you're really going to get full documentation for that
CatWeasel card!
7:40 p.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
In fact,
I've seen almost [no PCs] that didn't work.
You nave been _very lucky_
21 Aug
21 Aug
5:20 a.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:41:57 +0100 (BST)
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
(*trimmed*)
(PC hardware
is notoriosuly badly docuemnted and therefore
OK, trivial...
If you want both hardware and software documentation (i.e. schematics
_and ROM source code_) then the obvious ones are :
Apple : Apple ][ and Apple //e (and maybe other machines in that
family). I am told the IBM PC Techref was modelled on the Apple
manuals.
HP : HP71B. I am sure you've read the complete IDS (I certainly have,
it's excellent). Incidentally, do you have the HP71 Forth IMS
(Internal Maintenance Specification)? It's very interesting.
Research Machines : RML380Z. It's a separate hardware 'Information
File' giving schematics, etc and a COS (Cassette Operating System)
Source listing. Admittedly I've never seen the latter (it was an
optional purchase), but it existed.
DEC : PDP11. The PDP11/45 CPU technical manual and printset
(schematics) are much better than the IBM Techref. You could get a
source license for the OS if you could afford it, too.
DEC : PDP8. I am not sure about the OS sources, but the hardware
manuals, at least for the 8/e are again excellent.
HEath/Zentih : H89/Z90. The manuals I got with my Z90 had schematics
and ROM source listings in them.
If you just want hardware docs (i.e. full schematics) and the
programming interface (i.e. not full ROM sources) then also :
HP : Portable+ , HP150, etc (and I assume the HP110). There are
excellent technical manuals for these machines
Acorn : BBC Micro, Archimedes, etc. Again, schematics are easy to
obtain either in 'Advanced User Guides' or service manuals
Raido Shack : All TRS-80s had service manuals available to anyone who
wanted to order them. And many had technical reference manuals
available as well.
Need I go on?
difficult to maintain
Bah! The PC is probably THE best documented computer out there.
Name
another company that produced as thorough a Tech Ref as IBM. Name
another comany that has produced and PUBLICLY sold as
many service and parts
manuals as IBM has for the PC AND ALL OF IT'S ACCESSORIES AND
PERIPHERALS.
IBM service manuals (at least the Hardware Maintenance
and Service
manual i have for my PC/AT) are boardswapper guides. They're pretty
useless now, they are totally useless when there are no more boards to
swap.
The IBM PC/XT and PC/AT Technical Reference manuals include complete
schematics, and they include complete, commented source code listings
for the BIOS. Similar documents exist for some of the 'clone' machines,
i.e. the Compaq Deskpro and the AT&T 6300.
This is sadly not the case for most of the modern (modern meaning
anything newer than the XT/AT generations) 'PeeCee' hardware, but it is
the case with the earlier systems. It's definitely the case with the
machines from the era of most of the other hardware you listed, i.e. the
Apple II, HP71B.
Times have changed, but times have changed all over.
1:01 p.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
comany that has produced and PUBLICLY sold as many
service and parts
manuals as IBM has for the PC AND ALL OF IT'S ACCESSORIES AND
PERIPHERALS.
IBM service manuals (at least the Hardware
Maintenance and Service
manual i have for my PC/AT) are boardswapper guides. They're pretty
useless now, they are totally useless when there are no more boards to
swap.
The IBM PC/XT and PC/AT Technical Reference manuals include complete
schematics, and they include complete, commented source code listings for the BIOS. Similar documents exist for some of the
'clone' machines,
i.e. the Compaq Deskpro and the AT&T 6300.
This is sadly not the case for most of the modern (modern meaning
anything newer than the XT/AT generations) 'PeeCee' hardware, but it is
Hence my origianl comment that modern PCs are difficult to maintain.
the case with the earlier systems. It's
definitely the case with the
machines from the era of most of the other hardware you listed, i.e. the
Apple II, HP71B.
The suprise is the HP75C. There is a service manual for it, and AFAIK it
was available to anyone who wanted to order it. The supported repair
method is board-swapping (keyboard/top case, CPU board, memory board,
display IIRC). However, the manual includes full schsmatics and PCB
layouts and an _excellent_ theory-of-operation section.
The 75C ROM listing exists too, but it wasn't an official HP product. It
was sent to PPC (User group) under the NOMAS scheme (NOt MAnufacturer
Suported -- you could read/copy the listing, but you couldn't bother HP's
technical support about it). It is suprisingly hard to find now.
Times have changed, but times have changed all over.
Not round here they haven't :-)
-tony
24 Aug
24 Aug
10:50 a.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
> The IBM PC/XT and PC/AT Technical Reference
manuals include complete
> schematics, and they include complete, commented source code listings
In fact they're so good, I've kept my very early IBM PC Technical
Reference Manual even though I have zero (0) interest in the Beige Era.
Man I spent a lot of time working with that ROM BIOS code.
12 Aug
12 Aug
12:34 p.m.
New subject: 8" floppy project
On Mon, 2004-08-09 at 14:46, Tony Duell wrote:
So what happens in 20 years time when you want to
recover the data from
one of these Teledisk archive files, and when there are no suitable PCs
left running (PC hardware is notoriosuly badly docuemnted and therefore
difficult to maintain -- have you ever seen official schematics to a PC
later than a 286?). Sorry, but if I want to achive data, I want the
format of the archive to be fully documented so that I can recover it on
whatever machine I have access to.
I'd go further than Tony and say I'd want the meanings of the symbols
used in the data stream to be defined. For example, everything converted
to an ASCII character stream. You'll stop laughing when you need to
recreate antique data JUST ONCE from some wacko
futuristic-scheme-of-the-past and find the data stored in a stupid,
inane, and trivial-to-decode format. File size is not a valid objection.
4 Aug
4 Aug
5:49 a.m.
New subject: Classic Book...
"TV Typewriter Cookbook by Don Lancaster (1976)"
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=51…
rd=1
7:27 a.m.
New subject: Classic Book...
In message
<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAC6RJHIx+0kSwesJ7EUMCZcKAAAAQAAAAfTj6dGMpMk+1kqs5JRGgeAEAAAAA(a)optonline.net>
"David V. Corbin" <dvcorbin(a)optonline.net> wrote:
"TV Typewriter Cookbook by Don Lancaster
(1976)"
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=51…
rd=1
"Ships to: United States Only."
Bah.
Oh well, at least I can take some comfort in the fact that I've just managed
to find a (rather tatty) copy of the book "Electronic Prototype Construction"
by Stephen Kasten. Hm, "AT&T Bell Library Network" sticker stuck to the
inside front cover... Still, all the pages are there and the binding is
intact, even if the covers aren't :)
Later.
--
Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... I've got a mind like a... a... what's that thing called?
9:31 a.m.
New subject: Classic Book...
On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Philip Pemberton wrote:
Try Alibris or ABE (www.alibris.com or www.abebooks.com respectively).
There are a few copies available for very little and I'm sure the sellers
will ship to the UK.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
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"TV
Typewriter Cookbook by Don Lancaster (1976)"
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=51…
rd=1
"Ships to: United States Only."
Bah.
7267
days inactive
7287
days old
39 comments
19 participants
participants (19)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
cc＠corti-net.de -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dickset＠amanda.spole.gov -
donm＠cts.com -
dvcorbin＠optonline.net -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk -
kth＠srv.net -
mouse＠Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
philpem＠dsl.pipex.com -
pkoning＠equallogic.com -
rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com -
sastevens＠earthlink.net -
stanb＠dial.pipex.com -
tomj＠wps.com -
vcf＠siconic.com