At 12:32 PM 8/26/02 -0700, Ross wrote: That's true but most products are still cheaper here than in the UK. Explain that one! Joe

Joe wrote: I didn't know that was the case. Given that's true, I bet your answer is actually pretty complicated. Could be like the U.S. Change Bank, which makes no money on each transaction but makes up for this lack of profitability with large volumes. :) (Saturday Night Live reference.) :) No, Seriously. Given how much farmland is set aside for growing in the US (huge acreage), generally more sunshine (AZ and TX and CA and NM get a lot of sun!) and cheaper land in the great open spaces, along with a lot of farming technology used by big agribusiness, not to mention farmer subsidies, might start to explain why food at least is cheaper in the States. Not sure about other goods. Have no idea what percentage of goods are imports in UK vs. US, and whether protective import tariffs are more a factor on one side of the pond than the other. Also don't know if the UK subsidises farmers like the US does, or as much. I doubt most people think about these subsidies when they price corn or milk at the grocery store. A lot of times energy costs end up being a big factor in the cost of finished goods too. That might be tax-related, or could reflect actual higher oil prices there than here. Bottom line is it's probably a whole bunch of factors.

Stan Barr wrote: Hmm, I think my French farm neighbours might have something to say about that.... Agreed, but you do seem to be hit on all sides in the UK... Here in Fracne VAT is 19.6%, what is important is the total take of the government not how that booty is divided. Here in France the gov gets between 40% and 50% of GDP, it is lower inthe UK and much lower in the US. Ahem, I think you converted the wrong way, 104 pounds is closer to 150 dollars, don't know the price of beer in the US so can't comment on your beer conversion. -- hbp

----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" &lt;rigdonj(a)cfl.rr.com&gt; To: &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [OT] UK TV Licenses (was Re: These darned old computers) <snip> Explain that one! We also had the 'pleasure' of a "Broadcast Listeners License' until the Govt realised, that Aussies being Aussies, wouldn't pay for it unless they absolutely had to, which meant sending Radio Inspectors to do the rounds. This was costing more than the potential revenue, and was an unpopular job, especially in view of the fines that were levied as a consequence. At least some of the RI's took the initiative of having blank forms with them and would issue licenses on the spot (which they weren't supposed to do) rather than issuing a fine, which could provoke some rather severe reactions from the lower end of the social scale, who were also more likely not to have a license. In the end the Govt decided to give it away as a bad joke, and got stuck into CB licensing instead. If anything this was even more blithely ignored than the BCL and even harder to enforce, despite the RI's best efforts, they ultimately made CB a free class license as well and saved a fortune on Radio Inspectors wages. Where'd the money go? Most of it went to enforcing the licensing, some supposedly found it's way to the ABC (OZ equiv to BBC) but the standard of programming then was mostly documentary stuff, and the odd movie, with some current affairs stuff thrown in. With a few (mostly British) BBC series thrown in (remember Z Cars?) The ABC is still Govt funded, and the programming has iimproved somewhat, but it's not the sort of thing you watch all day if you have a choice. I can't speak to the British experience, but the 'pay me' licence didn't really work as far as ensuring quality progarmming. Commercial TV did and still does beat it hands down. Pay tv is another story. I've noted that it's now laced with commercials, which I find offensive considering we pay to see them. Bit like spam really. Geoff in Oz

At 11:42 AM 8/27/02 +0100, Phil wrote: BINGO! Like I said to begin with, it's all about government revenue! Joe

On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote: In *many* respects the US is pretty backward. But that would take this WAY off-topic... Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

Actually it came from Canada your neighbor on the north where the Bush administration is doing everything in it's power to wipe out our economy and social programs like health-care for his corporate sponsors, not to mention the opposition to the KYOTO Accords as our lakes and country are being wiped out by acid rain and pollution drifting north from a corporate friendly administration denying there's a problem. Jack Vallenti the Hollywood lobbyist has virtually wiped out our independent film culture, and our media was forced to accept US publications like Time on par with Canadian ones back in the Kennedy era. Yes, and many Canadians have little critical perceptions and watch the same TV programs you do. The US cultural behemoth is like the Borg. You WILL be assimilated Due to NAFTA our manufacturing industry is a fading memory, and even our resource industries like lumber are under attack by powerful US industries, ignoring the provisions of NAFTA. Under NAFTA we are sued if we prohibit certain chemicals in US products known to be dangerous to public health. Inflated US subsidies to agriculture are decimating our farmers, and on and on. Fortunately we aren't an enemy cause our government more or less toes the US corporate line. I guess it could be worse. Thank Gods for corporate- sponsored democracy. Self-defense ? Oh c'mon. That's laughable coming from the most powerful country in the world. At present in most countries the US is simply a bully using it's economic and military strength much as Britian did in the 19th century. Is it just an accident that Americans are despised the world over ? Just envy ? Both my parents were born in the US, I lived for a couple of years in the Boston area, my former wife is a US citizen and I could have likely claimed dual-citizenship. I have many US friends, my argument isn't with them, it's with brain-dead US firsters. As far as social programs for those not fortunate enough to have a big paycheck, the small farmers, the migrant workers who put produce on your table, the homeless, the hi-crime impoverished ghettoes, try comparing them to every major industrialized nation. Try approaching it without flag-waving, read Michael Harrington. Studs Terkel, and many, many US authors that love the US but not it's business-oriented government (maybe read one that isn't US Amerrican), especially both the last two administrations. Watch less indoctrinating spindoctor releases on mainstream TV. Ask why the US was the last country to accept commonly available social programs in all the major industrialized nations. I avoided the Phrase "brainwashed by monetary interests". My apologies to the list. This is no place for this sort of rant but the gross assumptions of some US list members is too often ignored and repeated. I'll not respond to further provocations on this thread. Lawrence lgwalker(a)mts.net bigwalk_ca(a)yahoo.com