7 Dec
1998
7 Dec
'98
12:39 p.m.
On Mon, 7 Dec 1998 A_Finney(a)wfi-inc.com wrote:
What??? I think I missed something here [bangs thick
head on desk]. Did
you just say that Linux is 30 years old or do I have barbecue sauce in my
ears? Is this some kind of metaphorical comparison of Linux to something
else? Did you mean just mean Unix in general?
I mean UNIX in general. I consider Linux and UNIX to be similar enough to
say that what I am running right now is as directly descended from
something that ran 30 years ago on that PDP in Bell Labs (IIRC) as any
other version of UNIX.
----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor(a)bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor
7 Dec
7 Dec
12:49 p.m.
On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Max Eskin wrote:
On Mon, 7 Dec 1998 A_Finney(a)wfi-inc.com wrote:
I know it's kind of a petty, splitting-hairs issue to users, but Linux
isn't Unix. It just looks and acts like it....
Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant."
What??? I think I missed something here [bangs
thick head on desk]. Did
you just say that Linux is 30 years old or do I have barbecue sauce in my
ears? Is this some kind of metaphorical comparison of Linux to something
else? Did you mean just mean Unix in general?
I mean UNIX in general. I consider Linux and UNIX to be similar enough to
say that what I am running right now is as directly descended from
something that ran 30 years ago on that PDP in Bell Labs (IIRC) as any
other version of UNIX. 
1:07 p.m.
I know
it's kind of a petty, splitting-hairs issue to users, but Linux
isn't Unix. It just looks and acts like it....
If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and is source code compatible
with a duck.... 
1:15 p.m.
On 8 Dec 1998, Eric Smith wrote:
Whether brand-conscious consumers like it or not, Unix has become a
generic name much like Xerox or Kleenex.
Linux isa Unix isa OS isa software.
SCO UnixWare isa Unix isa OS isa software.
-- Doug
If it looks
like a duck, acts like a duck, and is source code compatible
with a duck....
So by that reasoning you would say that DR-DOS *IS* MS-DOS?
Or that TurboDOS *IS* CP/M?
I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. 
4:51 p.m.
On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:
On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote:
I guess officially, Linux is a POSIX compliant operating system, as is
Unix.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 12/07/98]
I know it's kind of a petty, splitting-hairs
issue to users, but Linux
isn't Unix. It just looks and acts like it....
If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and is source code compatible
with a duck.... 
8 Dec
8 Dec
3:13 a.m.
New subject: (Linux != UNIX) (Was Re: OT HP Vectra Networking)
At 09:39 PM 12/7/98 -0500, Max (in a male persona :-) wrote:
I mean UNIX in general. I consider Linux and UNIX to be
similar enough to
say that what I am running right now is as directly descended from
something that ran 30 years ago on that PDP in Bell Labs (IIRC) as any
other version of UNIX.
Linux isn't UNIX, and it doesn't have its roots in UNIX any more than, say
CP/M. Linus liked MINIX (which is Tannebaum's version of an operating
system that uses many UNIX concepts) but wanted to make it better and did
so, as a model of things he would like it to do he used SunOS (which by
that time was the SystemV/BSD hybrid that was about as UNIX-like as Mach).
There are also some great archived flame wars between Linus and Andrew.
FreeBSD on the other hand is derived from BSD 4.4, which was derived from
BSD 4.x which was derived from Version 7 which goes back to the PDP-11 in
Bell Labs. It _IS_ UNIX with the proprietary bits excised over a period of
years. It, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and BSDI are all "true" UNIXes, if you care to
be a purist.
Then there are the OSes RTEMS and uCOS, both of which run on x86 machines.
--Chuck
3:48 a.m.
New subject: Altair Collectors Association
Hmmm.... Fascinating.
After reading some of the sentiments posted recently, what I'm
hearing is that the price of Altair's is a bubble without
underlying value, that is, they may be somewhat rare but aren't
really great machines, like a Ferarri or whatever, and that
the BASIC software for it wasn't very innovative.
I dunno, maybe there wouldn't be such interest if Micro-soft
hadn't become the juggernaught it is today, and MITS would have
been relegated to the dustbin of history.
However - I do see it as the 'Model-T' of PERSONAL computing -
sure everything had been done before but was usually priced
out of the average joe/jane's reach unless they worked in a
research institute or business, in which case they weren't
always allowed free reign to do whatever they wanted.
Also the Altair was a very open hardware platform, you had
the schematics, you got the educational experience of
actually building and usually repairing it; the more
experienced could add just about anything they could dream
of plus all the published construction articles one could
build on their kitchen table without applying for a govt.
research grant.
I'll yield the floor now but more later ;O
Chuck
cswiger(a)widomaker.com
5:42 a.m.
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12:48 p.m.
New subject: Altair Collectors Association
On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:
Also, forgot to add - the subject 'Altair Collectors Association' is
a little take off on the radio group 'Collins Collector Association'
except that Collins gear is expensive, but darn good radios.
Well, it may just be a case of marketing in a popular journal, but
NONE of the above appeared on my radar screen as a curious teenager
in nowhere West Virginia, USA at that time.
Points well taken.
Chuck
cswiger(a)widomaker.com
After reading some of the sentiments posted recently, what I'm
hearing is that the price of Altair's is a bubble without
underlying value, that is, they may be somewhat rare but aren't
That's basically my view. actually
building and usually repairing it; the more
Sure. But there were other build-it-yourself machines that have not
attracted the prices of the Altair. Things like the 'Hewart Mini 6800'.
or the 'PE CHAMP'. Or the various Elektor computers. Or the Science of
Cambridge MK14 (although that one is somewhat expensive now). Or the
Nascom. All came as kits. Most of them are a few 10s of dollars
9 Dec
9 Dec
5:21 a.m.
New subject: Altair Collectors Association
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6:03 p.m.
New subject: Altair Collectors Association
Well, it may
just be a case of marketing in a popular journal, but
NONE of the above appeared on my radar screen as a curious teenager
A lot of them are UK/European designs -- the MK14 was essentially a
Sinclair product, the Nascom was a UK machine (that begat the Gemini
Now, I don't want to start another silly Europe .vs. USA flamewar. And I
's why I avoid discussions about 'first', 'best' and just stick to
techy facts - and fact is I turned to Europe for support for an
Atari St ( >10yrs ) in the late eighties when support was drying
up here, like ST Format mag - hey, here's the Maastricht treaty
on an St disk, heh. Buying software (Lemmings, Stealth Fighter)
was my first trans-atlantic cc transaction went very smoothly,
thank you.
States. But I am truely suprised that the Altair
should be 2 orders of
magnitude (at least) more valuable than any of the above.
Debates on 'value' is another volitile subject - just look at the
book or radio collectors. Whether a book has a dot on the
'i' on page 39, line 13 or not can grotesquely alter the value
to someone. Most people think that's crazy!
Chuck
cswiger(a)widomaker.com
10 Dec
10 Dec
5:12 a.m.
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9 Dec
9 Dec
9:56 p.m.
New subject: Altair Collectors Association
> > Sure. But there were other build-it-yourself
machines that have not
> > attracted the prices of the Altair. Things like the 'Hewart Mini 6800'.
> > or the 'PE CHAMP'. Or the various Elektor computers. Or the Science of
> > Cambridge MK14 (although that one is somewhat expensive now). Or the
> > Nascom. All came as kits. Most of them are a few 10s of dollars
> Well, it may just be a case of marketing in a
popular journal, but
> NONE of the above appeared on my radar screen as a curious teenager
> in nowhere West Virginia, USA at that time.
A lot of them are UK/European designs -- the MK14 was
essentially a
Sinclair product, the Nascom was a UK machine (that begat the Gemini
Galaxy, which you won't have heard of), PE = Practical Electronics, a UK
magazine, and the Champ was a 4040-based machine + EPROM programmer that
they published and Elektor is a Dutch magazine thats sold across Europe.
Now, I don't want to start another silly Europe
.vs. USA flamewar. And I
am not suprised that a lot of those machines didn't make it to the
States. But I am truely suprised that the Altair should be 2 orders of
magnitude (at least) more valuable than any of the above.
Value is still depending - Its the same with the PET hype
in the US - The people like to have what they dreamed of
(or what they once had) and Pascal Microengines or Nascoms
(I'm still looking for a Nascom I system ...) have just
been special to the time - Like cars - take a Glas 2500 -
a german car from the 60s - comaparable to any italian
sports car but unknown to most common peoples - if you
know the later BMW csi models, you might imagine a Glas,
since BMW bought Glas and took their modern technology
to rebuild the company (at this time BMW had only pre
war designs ...). Glas went bankrupt becuse they couldn't
get new money into the company but instead the banks closed
the credit line (One truly unconnected fact was that the
major lending bank was also the 'house bank' of BMW and
controlled by the owner family of BMW). The 50s and 60s
have been a quite turbulent time in car busines over here :)
Gruss
Hans
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
8 Dec
8 Dec
9:41 a.m.
New subject: Altair Collectors Association
cswiger wrote:
Hmmm.... Fascinating.
After reading some of the sentiments posted recently, what I'm
hearing is that the price of Altair's is a bubble without
underlying value, that is, they may be somewhat rare but aren't
really great machines, like a Ferarri or whatever, and that
the BASIC software for it wasn't very innovative.
I dunno, maybe there wouldn't be such interest if Micro-soft
hadn't become the juggernaught it is today, and MITS would have
been relegated to the dustbin of history.
However - I do see it as the 'Model-T' of PERSONAL computing -
sure everything had been done before but was usually priced
out of the average joe/jane's reach unless they worked in a
research institute or business, in which case they weren't
always allowed free reign to do whatever they wanted.
The Model-T systems of computers were the TRS-80, the Apple-2 and
(hate to say it) the Pet. Something that could be bought by a
common citizen and made to work -- the computer buyer didn't have
to be a serious programmer, the buyer of a Ford T didn't have to
be a full-time mechanic. While I know there were MITS-equivalent
automobile projects published a century ago, none of the names
seem to stand out. Thinking on it, the Ford Model A was the
equivalent of a TRS-80 Model One, the Model T was the equivalent
of a Model 3. The Volkswagen was the equivalent of an IBM PC,
right down to the fascist overseers of the design. (For Ferarri
parallels, go for Cromemco or Xerox).
--
Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/>
WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.
9 Dec
9 Dec
4:54 a.m.
New subject: Altair Collectors Association
> However - I do see it as the 'Model-T' of
PERSONAL computing -
> sure everything had been done before but was usually priced
> out of the average joe/jane's reach unless they worked in a
> research institute or business, in which case they weren't
> always allowed free reign to do whatever they wanted.
The Model-T systems of computers were the TRS-80, the
Apple-2 and
(hate to say it) the Pet. Something that could be bought by a
common citizen and made to work -- the computer buyer didn't have
to be a serious programmer, the buyer of a Ford T didn't have to
be a full-time mechanic. While I know there were MITS-equivalent
automobile projects published a century ago, none of the names
seem to stand out. Thinking on it, the Ford Model A was the
equivalent of a TRS-80 Model One, the Model T was the equivalent
of a Model 3.
Exact my point, but
The Volkswagen was the equivalent of an IBM PC,
right down to the fascist overseers of the design.
here I get some problems.
First of all I would compare the C64 to the Volkswagen -
Already low end and overpriced when the production started,
outdated way before any production record and still sold
when _any_ other computer available was already better.
The VW was designed in the 30's but not build until the
'50s, to expensive at the start, and only a _very_ basic
car. And in the high time around 1960 to '75 the car was
completly outclassed - but sold in millions. Same for the
C64 - dat first only a fast developed simple machine to
be sold for less than a year, with only a minimum to run
and extremly expensive (thru the first year an Apple ][+
compatible syswtem was cheaper than any C64). Even, only
to use the build in features you had to get add on software.
When the sales roared, any other home computeer was already
better, but anyone was buying the C64 - like the Volkswagen ...
The IBM-PC (and all the folowing PCs) are in my view well
comperable to todays Volkswagen or Crysler cars - do one
design and add badges with brand names as needed (e.g.
Volkswagen creates a design and it is build as VW, Audi,
SEAT or Skoda).
Second, I can't catch the meaning of your words:
right down to the fascist overseers of the design.
I can't see any 'facist' design around the Volkswagen.
Of course, the car was used as a propaganda instrument,
but the design was just top class of the '30s - right
among the top designs of the same time in the US - just
a bit smaler and simpler (like the C64 always remind me
of some IBM keyboards :)
(For Ferarri parallels, go for Cromemco or Xerox).
I'm still looking for a Monteverdi type computer :)
Gruss
Hans
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
4:07 a.m.
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5:36 a.m.
New subject: Altair Collectors Association
::First of all I would compare the C64 to the
Volkswagen -
::Already low end and overpriced when the production started,
::outdated way before any production record and still sold
::when _any_ other computer available was already better.
HEY!
The 64 beat all contenders with the SID chip, and the
VIC-II was definitely
par with the other computers out there with the possible exception of the
Atari 8-bits (ANTIC still has an edge with that wonderful display list). And
the price plummeted quickly -- it didn't stay at US$595 MSRP very long.
???
Shure, par at the time it was introduced, but I said
'still sold when _any_ other computer available was already better'
Or would you realy take a C64 above any lets say Amiga ?
And even when new, the hardware of competitors (like the
mentioned Ataris) where at least equal and the '''OS'''
didn't match the Hardware at all.
And for the price, it took more than a year to get the
C64 down to 600 Mark (the price of an Atari).
Gruss
Hans
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
5:11 a.m.
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9:56 p.m.
New subject: Altair Collectors Association
::And for the price, it took more than a year to get
the
::C64 down to 600 Mark (the price of an Atari).
In the States, it took less than a year. The 64 was
introduced at Winter CES
1982, according to my data, and during 1983 (probably no more than six months
later) dropped to US$199 MSRP -- street sales were even lower.
Maybe Germans are just more willingly victims of blood sucking ...
At the start a C64 with floppy and CRT wasa about 2200 Mark,
while an Apple ][+ compatible computer with dual drives cost
only 1600 Mark ... But the people bought the C64 ... The slice
sales practice of commodore was just better ...
Slice sales means 'You just needs a C64 at 1100 Mark and
Tape at 100 Mark and use your TV set - so it's only 1200
Mark, compared to 1600 for a dual floppy Apple clone' and
the people did belive ... I'm still mad about this. I had
to go thru this with a collegue of mine - a veritable /370
programmer and Hardwar technican, but instead of buying
a clone, he did go for the C64 ... Only the computer and
the Tape ... haha ... it took only 2 month until he bought
a floppy ... and only some more weeks for the CRT ... and
no software available at this time, hile I had zillions
(ok, lets say some 300) of disks.
Gruss
Hans
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
8 Dec
8 Dec
10:13 a.m.
New subject: Altair Collectors Association
On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, cswiger wrote:
However - I do see it as the 'Model-T' of
PERSONAL computing - sure
everything had been done before but was usually priced out of the
average joe/jane's reach unless they worked in a research institute or
business, in which case they weren't always allowed free reign to do
whatever they wanted.
As you probably know, the Scelbi-8H came well before the Altair and had a
similar price. But the Altair got a cover story in Popular Electronics,
and the Scelbi didn't. Of course, the Mark-8 got an even earlier cover
story in Radio Electronics, but you couldn't buy a kit like you could with
the Altair.
And don't forget that once you added memory, storage, and a TTY to your
Altair, you were talking Big Bucks, and something like an HP 9830 (1972)
starts to look like a very attractive alternative (assuming you knew they
existed -- HP didn't run ads in Popular Electronics, for example).
I think the infatuation with the Altair today is due to reporters and
popular writers repeating each other over and over that the Altair was
"the first personal computer", which is nonsense. Low-priced personal
computers for education and experimentation have been available since 1950
or so. They were basically toys, but so was the Altair when it came out.
I don't even buy the idea that the Altair started the Hobbyist Movement.
It seems there were quite a few newsletters and computer clubs that
pre-dated the Altair, and they discussed both 8008-based machines and
surplus DEC stuff.
Also the Altair was a very open hardware platform, you
had the
schematics, you got the educational experience of actually building and
usually repairing it; the more experienced could add just about anything
they could dream of plus all the published construction articles one
could build on their kitchen table without applying for a govt.
research grant.
Yes, I think accessibility was the key. That's why the Altair bus was so
quickly cloned, and it's probably also why a weenie like Gates latched
onto the machine as a target for his "quality software".
-- Doug
10:44 a.m.
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11:35 a.m.
New subject: Altair Collectors Association
On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:
Not really. As long as their are fools like us to set things straight
then the true history of computing will survive. Interest in computer
history is growing (I see it in this part of the country at least) and
reporters will hopefully become more savvy of the real history of the
microcomputer revolution as they start to write more in depth articles,
rather than the basic re-hashed lame-o story that you always see
(Altair->Apple->IBM->Microsoft). Also, as more and more computer museums
are established (The Computer Museum History Center over here in Mountain
View finally found a location to build their permanent musuem) and start
getting better funding for research, new texts will be written that go
more into detail about the early days of the microcomputer boom and stuff
that went on before the Altair will start to come to light. In fact, I
just thought it would be great to make next year's VCF theme "Before the
Altair: The Evolution of the Microcomputer".
I think the
infatuation with the Altair today is due to reporters and
popular writers repeating each other over and over that the Altair was
"the first personal computer", which is nonsense. Low-priced personal
I think that's _exactly_ the reason. And it's worrying, mainly because
history is being massively distorted by this. Looking at the UK electronics magazines for the early
1970's, it's clear
that there was going to be a homebuilt computer pretty soon. There were
designs for analogue machines, assorted robotic projects (mostly, again,
This is where it comes in handy having old timers like Allison around to
tell us stories of their early days.
Us: Auntie Allison, tell us about the early days of microcomputing.
Allison: Well, in my day, we didn't have these fancy GUIs and Plug n Play.
We had to write our own operating systems! And we had to haul ASR-33
terminals across bridges just so we could type in our programs. That is,
if you were lucky enough to find a terminal! Usually we had to build our
own from lights & switches...
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 12/07/98]
11:50 a.m.
New subject: Altair Collectors Association
On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Sam Ismail wrote:
In fact, I just thought it would be great to make next
year's VCF theme
"Before the Altair: The Evolution of the Microcomputer".
I thought that was this year's theme. BTW, define microcomputer, so we
can argue about which was first (wait, by your definition, the F14 was
the first microcomputer, right? :-)
If you drop "microcomputer" out of your theme, we might acutally be able
to exhibit some theme machines.
-- Doug
1:26 p.m.
New subject: Altair Collectors Association
On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:
This year didn't really have a theme. No, I take that back. This year's
theme was "Old Computers are Cool!"
In fact, I
just thought it would be great to make next year's VCF theme
"Before the Altair: The Evolution of the Microcomputer".
I thought that was this year's theme. BTW, define microcomputer, so we can argue about which was first (wait, by your
definition, the F14 was
the first microcomputer, right? :-)
Um, yeah! Depending on how you define microcomputer, the F14A CADC
definitely takes thi honor. However, I've finally gotten that info on the
Four Phase AL1 I've been talking about and that may add some new fuel to
the controversy.
If you drop "microcomputer" out of your
theme, we might acutally be able
to exhibit some theme machines.
Ok, fine. "Before the Altair: Computers That Didn't Suck"
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 12/07/98]
1:51 p.m.
New subject: Altair Collectors Association
Ok guys, Tomb it may concern in the Altair Collectors Association:
Today I got home, genuflect before the Golden Altair, made some
clean dumps of some BASIC programs and converted them to MP3 files,
largely for proof of concept, but also to see if these are small
enough for swapping via the Internet. A "Startrek" version came
out about 1.3Mb. They play very clearly and load w/o problem here.
If anyone else can get software into this format I'd love to
hear about it, as I only have one known good tape and don't like
typing in listings.
Results posted at http://www.widomaker.com/~cswiger
Std. Disclaimer.
Chuck
cswiger(a)widomaker.com
1:08 p.m.
New subject: Altair Collectors Association
On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:
As you probably know, the Scelbi-8H came well before
the Altair and had a
similar price. But the Altair got a cover story in Popular Electronics,
and the Scelbi didn't. Of course, the Mark-8 got an even earlier cover
A Mark-8 is on my list of things to watch out for - as I, like many
others, attempted it but failed - but I'm not holding my breath. It
would be interesting to run the Scelbi 8008 BASIC on (SCELBAL).
I think the infatuation with the Altair today is due to reporters and
popular writers repeating each other over and over that the Altair was
"the first personal computer", which is nonsense. Low-priced personal
Now I'm scared - me and the popular press agree! That is, it was
MY first personal computer, which is a fact. As you well know, once
people start into 'whose on first', distinctions start to blur -
"No, Charlie Babbage had the 'first' personal computer', 'No! - it
was Yang Lin's Abacus that was the 'first' personal computer', heheh.
It would be just as arbitrary so say a club of 5 people with
machine 'X' don't count, but suddenly a group of 2000 with machine
'Y' makes 'Y' the 'first'.
Anyway, back to saving data... :))
Chuck
cswiger(a)widomaker.com
9 Dec
9 Dec
2:15 a.m.
New subject: Altair Collectors Association
However - I do see it as the 'Model-T' of
PERSONAL computing -
sure everything had been done before but was usually priced
out of the average joe/jane's reach unless they worked in a
research institute or business, in which case they weren't
always allowed free reign to do whatever they wanted.
Hmm I don't know - the Modell T ?
I guess this one goes to Apple, Commodore and Tandy.
Gruss
Hans
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
8 Dec
8 Dec
6:43 a.m.
New subject: (Linux != UNIX) (Was Re: OT HP Vectra Networking)
On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Chuck McManis wrote:
Linux isn't UNIX [...]
My point was that words change their meaning. Unix isn't Unix anymore.
For that matter, Linux != Linux. When most people talk about Linux, do
you think they're talking about a kernel? I read an interview of Richard
Stallman in which he whined a bit about how the collection of GNU stuff
combined with a Linux kernel is called "Linux." There's probably more GNU
code than Linus code in any given Linux distribution.
-- Doug
9:23 a.m.
New subject: (Linux != UNIX) (Was Re: OT HP Vectra Networking)
Doug Yowza wrote:
On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Chuck McManis wrote:
Yup. Linux Ain't Unix. It Ain't Minix. It ain't GNU, though it uses
Stallman's Copyleft. Yes, every Linux distribution uses gagloads of
GNU material, properly attributed, all source available, and Stallman
has nothing to complain about except that people have been making
money selling free software. (That's free as in something other than
the price -- Open Source).
--
Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/>
WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.
Linux isn't UNIX [...]
My point was that words change their meaning. Unix isn't Unix anymore.
For that matter, Linux != Linux. When most people talk about Linux, do
you think they're talking about a kernel? I read an interview of Richard
Stallman in which he whined a bit about how the collection of GNU stuff
combined with a Linux kernel is called "Linux." There's probably more GNU
code than Linus code in any given Linux distribution.
9:34 a.m.
New subject: (Linux != UNIX) (Was Re: OT HP Vectra Networking)
On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
Yup. Linux Ain't Unix. It Ain't Minix. It
ain't GNU, though it uses
Stallman's Copyleft. Yes, every Linux distribution uses gagloads of
GNU material, properly attributed, all source available, and Stallman
has nothing to complain about except that people have been making
money selling free software. (That's free as in something other than
the price -- Open Source).
AFAIK, Stallman never had a problem with people selling "free" software,
or making money from it in other ways such as Cygnus support. FSF used to
make money themselves by selling tapes or CD-ROMs with hefty margins.
They still offer "deluxe" packages for $5K and CD-ROMs for $240 to corps
and $60 to peons, but I doubt they sell very well.
According to the interview I read (from 1996), Stallman considers Linux to
be the fullfillment of his mission to make Unix free, but he might be a
bit unhappy that Linus is seen as the creator of something that couldn't
have been pulled off without his help. Linux would be a sorry joke
without GNU.
-- Doug
9 Dec
9 Dec
3:19 a.m.
New subject: (Linux != UNIX) (Was Re: OT HP Vectra Networking)
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A_Finney＠wfi-inc.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
ckaiser＠oa.ptloma.edu -
cmcmanis＠freegate.com -
cswiger＠wilma.widomaker.com -
dastar＠ncal.verio.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
gram＠cnct.com -
Hans.Franke＠mch20.sbs.de -
kurtkilg＠geocities.com -
spc＠armigeron.com -
yowza＠yowza.com