19 Jun
2005
19 Jun
'05
9:27 a.m.
And I will still endeavor to take care of the PDP-10 software
archives, the DECUS PDP-11 and PDP-10 collections, etc. It's been
years since any software was donated to those archives so I haven't
put a lot of effort into them. But it's good to know that there a
are a couple of PDP-10's around the world that are now usefully
"up" thanks to the archives.
--
I need to see about completely cloning trailing-edge. There were a few
cgi scripts there that made using wget difficult when I tried to copy
it to bitsavers.
I've made a few attempts to break into the professional archiving
world w.r.t. digital media, but so far I've been universally ignored.
Of course, those who ignore me would rather just talk about the
problem rather than solve it. So maybe that's why I don't register
on their radar. You have seen and probably will see me rant and
rave on this subject occasionally!
--
Given another 10 years it won't be an issue, since after the next
round of corporate failures/mergers there won't be any old software
to recover, and as you've discovered, people don't seem to be very
concerned about recovering/preserving what exists now.
I've been ranting for a while now that people are saving the iron,
but not the software that ran on it. It's surprising how little is
even left from late 60's IBM 360s (incl the systems themselves),
which was the most popular large computing system, and how MUCH has
been saved from DEC (thanks to the efforts of collectors and CHM).
I'm starting to think that there is going to be a pretty strange
view of computer software in the future, since there is so MUCH
that was saved from DEC, and almost nothing from Burroughs,
UNIVAC, NCR, and Honeywell (the last member of the BUNCH, CDC,
seems to have a fair amount saved, though)
19 Jun
19 Jun
11:01 a.m.
At 9:27 AM -0700 6/19/05, Al Kossow wrote:
I've been ranting for a while now that people are
saving the iron,
but not the software that ran on it. It's surprising how little is
Don't forget it's not just software, the people tend to toss the
manuals as well.
I'm starting to think that there is going to be a
pretty strange
view of computer software in the future, since there is so MUCH
that was saved from DEC, and almost nothing from Burroughs,
UNIVAC, NCR, and Honeywell (the last member of the BUNCH, CDC,
seems to have a fair amount saved, though)
How much of this though is due to availability of the systems, and
where they were actually used? Didn't the DEC systems tend to be
used in much more open environments where the software could get out?
I was lucky to have saved the GCOS-8 manuals I've got, there is
absolutely *NO WAY* I could have gotten copies of the software, even
if I'd have considered doing such a thing at the time. How many of
these systems (and everything that went with them) were on lease, and
as a result had to go back to the manufacturer for destruction?
Let's not forget that there are huge chunks of DEC software that is
lost or virtually lost. Who has Pre-V4 VAX/VMS? While it might seem
like there is a lot of PDP-10 software, in reality, most of it's
gone. The early PDP-11 OS's, as well as most Layered Products are
largely missing as well (of these RT-11 has best been archived). I
honestly don't know about the state of PDP-8 software, but I know
there are definitely holes. Other than those systems, most of the
PDP's have little or no software that has been archived.
Zane
--
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
6:16 p.m.
Zane H. Healy wrote:
At 9:27 AM -0700 6/19/05, Al Kossow wrote:
Jerome Fine replies:
With regard to RT-11, I have saved both Qbus hardware,
manuals and the software. There is a (complete?) set of
binary RT-11 distributions available at:
http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/
The file is the compressed image of a CD that can be burned:
RT11DV10.ISO.zip
This CD image contains 13 binary RT-11 distributions from
V01-15 to V05.03 of RT-11. A later CD (RT11V50.ISO)
is available for RT-11 users who are legally licensed to use
V05.07 of RT-11. This later CD contains 11 more binary
RT-11 images from V05.04 to V05.07 of RT-11.
Some of the early RT-11 binary images are probably incomplete,
in particular prior to V04.00 of RT-11.
The (UnZipped) file, RT11DV10.ISO can be legally used as
a container file with SIMH (as far as I know) to run V05.03
of RT-11. While the individual files on the first RT-11 partition
are mostly either RK05 or RL02 bootable images (truncated
to remove trailing blocks of all zeros), the complete CD also
contains an RT-11 file directory, in additional the the ISO9660
file directory, and the image file of the CD can be used under
SIMH (RT11DV10.ISO) via:
ATTACH RQ0: RT11DV10.ISO
SET RQ0: LOCK
BOOT RQ0:
I also have a sets of DOCs available for both V05.03 and V05.07
of RT-11.
I've been ranting for a while now that people
are saving the iron,
but not the software that ran on it. It's surprising how little is
Don't forget it's not just software, the people tend to toss the
manuals as well. I'm
starting to think that there is going to be a pretty strange
view of computer software in the future, since there is so MUCH
that was saved from DEC, and almost nothing from Burroughs,
UNIVAC, NCR, and Honeywell (the last member of the BUNCH, CDC,
seems to have a fair amount saved, though)
How much of this though is due to availability of the systems, and
where they were actually used? Didn't the DEC systems tend to be used
in much more open environments where the software could get out? I was
lucky to have saved the GCOS-8 manuals I've got, there is absolutely
*NO WAY* I could have gotten copies of the software, even if I'd have
considered doing such a thing at the time. How many of these systems
(and everything that went with them) were on lease, and as a result
had to go back to the manufacturer for destruction? Let's not forget that there are huge chunks of DEC
software that is
lost or virtually lost. Who has Pre-V4 VAX/VMS? While it might seem
like there is a lot of PDP-10 software, in reality, most of it's
gone. The early PDP-11 OS's, as well as most Layered Products are
largely missing as well (of these RT-11 has best been archived). I
honestly don't know about the state of PDP-8 software, but I know
there are definitely holes. Other than those systems, most of the
PDP's have little or no software that has been archived.
As mentioned above, I have attempted to preserve
all of the RT-11 binary distributions. While the
binary versions starting with V04.00 (February 1980)
are probably faithfully preserved, prior versions
are less well archived. In addition, since I had
access to only about 2/3 of the 17 RT-11 versions
on RL02 media from V05.00 to V05.07, I required one
individual who provided most of the remaining versions.
Since I wish to keep a low profile and I do not in
any manner consider myself the owner of the collection
just because I put them all into one CD image, I have
never associated my name with the collection and will
continue to operate in that manner - unless I receive
official recognition that the collection is officially
sanctioned. In any case, the collection will always
be available without charge for all hobby users who
wish to sample RT-11.
Since I have never received a single inquiry about the
CD, I have not made V2-0 a high priority. V2-0 will
eventually contain layered products released prior to
V05.04 of RT-11 which may also be legally used under
SIMH. V6-0 will contain all layered products which I
can find and may also include some commented source
code distributions as well.
Eventually, I wish to release a Y2K set of bug fixes
for V05.03 of RT-11 unless Mentec first makes V05.07
available for hobby use. Eventually, I also wish to
release a set of Y9K bug fixes for both V05.03 and
V05.07 of RT-11 along with many other enhancements,
especially to V05.07 if Mentec allows hobby use of
this version. If that is the case, the enhancements
would also be freely available for commercial use
without charge - although if there were any bugs that
commercial users wanted fixed, and I am still around
to do the work, ...
At present the enhancements will include:
(a) SL: (Single Line Editor)
(b) BINCOM
(c) ANSI support for escape sequences on the keypad during type ahead
(d) MSCP support to boot all 64 active RT-11 partitions
(e) Increase enhanced device support to 256 active RT-11 devices
A number of bug fixes are also planned, some of which
cause RT-11 to crash. Y9K support is also considered
a bug fix.
Any discussion of this e-mail is appreciated, especially
the previous two paragraphs.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
--
If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail
address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk
e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be
obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the
'at' with the four digits of the current year.
12:37 p.m.
> how MUCH has been saved from DEC (thanks to the
efforts of collectors
> and CHM).
Is there an index somewhere of the CHM collection, and what parts of
it have been recovered? My question is specifically targeted towards
software not hardware. (I think they have a halfway decent web-accesible
index of hardware.)
Tim.
20 Jun
20 Jun
7:24 a.m.
>>>> "Al" == Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> writes:
Al> I've been ranting for a while now that people are saving the
Al> iron, but not the software that ran on it. It's surprising how
Al> little is even left from late 60's IBM 360s (incl the systems
Al> themselves), which was the most popular large computing system,
Al> and how MUCH has been saved from DEC (thanks to the efforts of
Al> collectors and CHM).
Perhaps because DEC computers were fun and 360s were not?
Al> I'm starting to think that there is going to be a pretty strange
Al> view of computer software in the future, since there is so MUCH
Al> that was saved from DEC, and almost nothing from Burroughs,
Al> UNIVAC, NCR, and Honeywell (the last member of the BUNCH, CDC,
Al> seems to have a fair amount saved, though)
True. Is there even an emulator for the B-6700 series?
Then again, there are even darker spots. Some time ago I went looking
for documentation about some Philips computer and found absolutely
nothing -- not just for the model I wanted, but nothing for any model
at all. About the only thing I could find was a picture of a cover
page of some manual (in the Google cache, though the website itself no
longer had it).
Given that a fair number of CC contributors are European, this is
slightly surprising. Not that Philips ever was a particularly
impressive computer maker, but they did have some interesting
machines. The EL-X8 is historically very significant indeed (for
reasons of software, not hardware). And there were some other
interesting machines; I remember a minicomputer with 24-bit words and
French opcode mnemonics.
paul
8:03 a.m.
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 10:24 -0400, Paul Koning wrote:
One thing we find here is that it's a struggle to get anything from the
late 60's / early 70's that isn't DEC. Bear in mind that most of our
bigger systems tend to come from companies who have retired systems
lurking in storage, not from invididuals.
I don't know why, but generally it's only the DEC stuff that's survived
>>>> "Al" == Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> writes:
Al> I've been ranting for a while now that people are saving the
Al> iron, but not the software that ran on it. It's surprising how
Al> little is even left from late 60's IBM 360s (incl the systems
Al> themselves), which was the most popular large computing system,
Al> and how MUCH has been saved from DEC (thanks to the efforts of
Al> collectors and CHM).
Perhaps because DEC computers were fun and 360s were not? from that era (of the large machines). Maybe it's
that other companies
of the time disappeared whereas DEC kept on going and continued
to
supply hardware - and so there was less incentive to hang on to the old
hardware "just in case" when systems were upgraded?
We were lucky to get that PR1ME 750 recently; it's the only large PR1ME
I've known of in the last couple of years - yet they must have been
*reasonably* common at one point.
We do have various 60's / 70's hardware (Elliott / Digico / Marconi /
BCL) (and a BCL Susie and a Norsk Data system on the way at some point)
but non-DEC stuff is hard to come by.
Even bigger stuff is even worse, although it's possible that some
financial houses and defence places still have large ICL mainframes and
the like tucked away in storage.
Al> I'm starting to think that there is going
to be a pretty strange
Al> view of computer software in the future, since there is so MUCH
Al> that was saved from DEC, and almost nothing from Burroughs,
Al> UNIVAC, NCR, and Honeywell (the last member of the BUNCH, CDC,
Al> seems to have a fair amount saved, though)
On that front, we are more fortunate with documentation - we've got a
*lot*, including non-DEC stuff, for that sort of era (but typically just
fragments that people have hung onto as souvenirs, not complete doc
sets). It's just a shame that so much of the non-DEC hardware seems to
have vanished. Given the crowded nature of the UK, I doubt much of it is
lurking in the hands of private collectors.
Then again, there are even darker spots. Some time
ago I went looking
for documentation about some Philips computer and found absolutely
nothing -- not just for the model I wanted, but nothing for any model
at all. About the only thing I could find was a picture of a cover
page of some manual (in the Google cache, though the website itself no
longer had it).
Yep, that's been my experience too when I was looking for info on my
P3800 - there's nothing out there for Philips at all it seems (at least
not for their larger machines) :-(
cheers
Jules
9:38 a.m.
Perhaps because DEC computers were fun and 360s were
not?
Yes, that is it. However, Univacs were apparently "fun" as well.
Given that a fair number of CC contributors are
European, this is
slightly surprising. Not that Philips ever was a particularly
impressive computer maker, but they did have some interesting
machines.
Yes, but Phillips was never even a dream close to being part of the BUNCH
or IBM.
"Interesting" does not always mean "historically significant", as
well. There are many "firsts" in the field of computering that did not
amount to a hill of beans - often the "seconds" are the ones that
matter. History tends to be defined by the common stuff, basically.
William Donzelli
aw288 at osfn.org
9:55 a.m.
>>>> "William" == William
Donzelli <aw288 at osfn.org> writes:
> Given that a fair number of CC contributors are
European, this is
> slightly surprising. Not that Philips ever was a particularly
> impressive computer maker, but they did have some interesting
> machines.
William> Yes, but Phillips was never even a dream close to being part
William> of the BUNCH or IBM.
William> "Interesting" does not always mean "historically
William> significant", as well. There are many "firsts" in the field
William> of computering that did not amount to a hill of beans -
William> often the "seconds" are the ones that matter. History tends
William> to be defined by the common stuff, basically.
True. But other computer makers of even lower stature have shown up
on the CC list, and in bitsavers. Apart from the big ones, it seems
to be just a random process that determines which machines appear and
which ones do not. For example, I can't think of any other reason why
Varian would show up in Al's archive and Philips would not...
paul
11:04 a.m.
True. But other computer makers of even lower stature
have shown up
on the CC list, and in bitsavers. Apart from the big ones, it seems
to be just a random process that determines which machines appear and
which ones do not. For example, I can't think of any other reason why
Varian would show up in Al's archive and Philips would not...
I doubt there were ever more than 100 Phillips machines in the US at any
given time. Perhaps in Europe they were more popular, but here they were
effectively not even a tiny speck in the minicomputer industry.
William Donzelli
aw288 at osfn.org
11:38 a.m.
From: "William Donzelli" <aw288 at osfn.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: My classiccmp non-retirement :-)
I only know about a few of Philips' types : the 400/4000 series and the
800/6000 series.
The 400 series was basically an office computer, obsolet around 1984/85. It
was superseded by the 4000, which could be programmed in Cobol (I've done
that myself), and supported a number (6?) of terminals.
The 800 was mainly (in Denmark) used for medical purposes, but never very
popular.
The 6000's basic hardware was identical to the 800's, but improved by the
Swedish subsidiary, PEAB (Philips Elektronikindustri AB) in Stockholm. It
was very popular in banks, for front- and backoffice operations.
In Denmark, there were 3 main uses :
- a local authority system, so they could enter bills to be paid, write
checks, do social security, enter year-end declarations, off-line printer
(*), concentrator / line multiplexor (*)
- a front office system for the railways' seat reservation (including car
ferry reservation) and the printing of reservation receipts. the "big iron"
was a Siemens mainframe
- a data entry system for the postal authorities
Then there was an attempt to enter the ATM marked, based on a Diebold cash
dispenser (my project)
(*) the 6000's were connected to an IBM mainframe at Kommunedata, which is a
servicebureau for the local authorities. They would generate print files
during the night, which would then be sent automatically. This enabled the
authorities to do full-speed printing, as the max line speed was 9.600 bps,
and as Kommunedata had some terrible response times, the printer would stop
and start endlessly.
I do have most of the software from this period, including the system
software.
And then there was the 7000, which was a bastard collected from a number of
hardware vendors. The tape drive was Pertec, the disks were Control Data, as
were the floppy drives (8"). The CPU was some mini (not the DG Nova), but I
cant remember which one it was. In fact, we used to joke about the bastard,
as apart from the CPU, it was obviously identical to the Regnecentralen
4000, a danish system.
Nico
For example, I
can't think of any other reason why
Varian would show up in Al's archive and Philips would not...
I doubt there were ever more than 100 Phillips machines in the US at any
given time. Perhaps in Europe they were more popular, but here they were
effectively not even a tiny speck in the minicomputer industry.
2:41 p.m.
On 20 Jun, 2005, at 14:04, William Donzelli wrote:
Philips (which is an entirely different company from Phillips) were
much more imporant as makers of embedded computers than as makers of
computers people know about.
My cousin used to work as an instructor in the norwegian navy, and he
said the Philips computers were used in most of our Missile Torpedo
Boats.
I suppose embedded systems easily end up as the forgotten branch of
computers, even though they probably are both more numerous and more
important than standalone boxes.
--
-bv
True. But
other computer makers of even lower stature have shown up
on the CC list, and in bitsavers. Apart from the big ones, it seems
to be just a random process that determines which machines appear and
which ones do not. For example, I can't think of any other reason why
Varian would show up in Al's archive and Philips would not...
I doubt there were ever more than 100 Phillips machines in the US at
any
given time. Perhaps in Europe they were more popular, but here they
were
effectively not even a tiny speck in the minicomputer industry. 
4:40 p.m.
Then again, there are even darker spots. Some time
ago I went looking
for documentation about some Philips computer and found absolutely
For the record, I have some manuals for some P850 series machines. From
memory :
P850 (TTL-based CPU): User manual (which includes the instruction set,
bootstrap listing, etc), CPU technical manaul (schematics of the CPU and
PSU bits, nothing on memory or I/O)
P851 (Philips custom bitslice) : User manual (also with instruction set,
etc), 2 volume techncial manual (schematics of the CPU, PSU, memory, some
I/O), Floppy disk system technical manual (with the CDC floppy drive
manual as well), etc
P854 (AM2900 bit slice) : CPU technical manual (preliminarly edition,
alas withot the microcode source), PSU manual (a very good manual for an
SMPSU, with schematics, waveforms, etc).
Some other stuff. I think I have a mnaul for a 4-port serial card that
includes schemaatics, ROM source, etc.
nothing -- not just for the model I wanted, but
nothing for any model
at all. About the only thing I could find was a picture of a cover
page of some manual (in the Google cache, though the website itself no
longer had it).
Given that a fair number of CC contributors are European, this is
slightly surprising. Not that Philips ever was a particularly
Well, I may have a few manuals, but I have no way to scan them...
-tony
21 Jun
21 Jun
7:01 a.m.
My Philips computer dream is to emulate an EL-X8 and run THE on it.
That's likely to be impossible... even if the machine specs could be
found, digging up a copy of the THE OS would be tough.
paul
8:09 a.m.
Paul Koning wrote:
My Philips computer dream is to emulate an EL-X8 and
run THE on it.
That's likely to be impossible... even if the machine specs could be
found, digging up a copy of the THE OS would be tough.
paul
Here's what has worked for me, twice. Back when I started my Sol archive, there
was very little on the web. So I put up a web page and posted the little
information I had. I scoured ebay and did a lot of googling and posted many
emails to people who might remember the Sol. Pretty soon people started
emailing me and I had more and more for my web site. The more that was on there
the more people sent me.
Although my Sol web site is more developed, my main interest lies in the Wang
2200. I had made little progress on that front, so I tried the same trick: I
posted a web site and before long, former Wang FAE's and sales people and an
assortment of people who had used it contacted me. 95% just say "thanks," but
those few others send something or on occasion (like the former wang fae who
kept many dozens of schematics) you hit the jackpot.
So go and build the world's most comprehensive web site on the EL-X8 and THE,
even if it is one page. Be sure it is very easy to get your email address from
the page. It might take a year or two, but you'll find things that way.
11 a.m.
New subject: My classiccmp non-retirement , now Philips
Am dinsdag, 21.06.05, um 16:01 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Paul Koning:
My Philips computer dream is to emulate an EL-X8 and
run THE on it.
That's likely to be impossible... even if the machine specs could be
found, digging up a copy of the THE OS would be tough.
paul
You could try these people :
http://www.grande-dixence.ch/en/gd_hydraulique/potentiel.php
They started off with an Elektrologica X8 for control of their dam,
In my workplace they used Philips ( one l please , not two...) P856 and
P857
16 bit minicomputers to test watch IC's. All these minis were dumped,
I rescued just one , plus some spare boards to keep it running.
No software could be found to for them.
Jos Dreesen
4:23 p.m.
New subject: My classiccmp non-retirement , now Philips
In my workplace they used Philips ( one l please , not
two...) P856 and
P857
16 bit minicomputers to test watch IC's. All these minis were dumped,
I rescued just one , plus some spare boards to keep it running.
No software could be found to for them.
I got some 8" floppies with my P851 and P854 machines, at least one of
which is claimed to be an OS boot disk. I've not done anything with them
yet, but they are safe.
A fried wrote a monitor program from the P850, which loads from paper
tape. I should still have the source and binary around. I would have to
ask him what the copyright situation is, but I can't believe he would
object to another enthusiast running it.
-tony
7126
days inactive
7127
days old
15 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
aw288＠osfn.org -
bv＠norbionics.com -
frustum＠pacbell.net -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jhfinexgs2＠compsys.to -
jos.mar＠bluewin.ch -
julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk -
nico＠FARUMDATA.DK -
pkoning＠equallogic.com -
shoppa_classiccmp＠trailing-edge.com