9 Nov
1998
9 Nov
'98
2:53 a.m.
Members:
Project success: Rescued a working binary of ALtair 4K
basic off the old cassette tape (after much diddling with
volume and tone controls) so you can be sure we're going
to make a fresh dump direct to a sound card and audio CD
for preservation.
Wish I could find the original docs. Sure does add a lot
of value to the machine to have easy floating point and
flow control! Next level: Startrek (and other rudimentary
games). Can't do much without strings tho. Hmmm, might
have 8K basic here somewhere...
Curious what the copyright situation on BASIC (or related
products) is? Certainly Gate's hasn't released it into
public domain.
Chuck
cswiger(a)widomaker.com
9 Nov
9 Nov
6:10 a.m.
cswiger <cswiger(a)wilma.widomaker.com> wrote:
Curious what the copyright situation on BASIC (or
related
products) is? Certainly Gate's hasn't released it into
public domain.
No, and he got pretty upset about people redistributing it without
authorization. But that was a few years ago; maybe he's mellowed out
by now. :-)
6:30 a.m.
At 08:10 PM 11/9/98 -0000, Eric Smith wrote:
cswiger <cswiger(a)wilma.widomaker.com> wrote:
See Claus Giloi's Altair / IMSAI emulator on my web page at
<http://www.threedee.com/jcm/emu8080/index.html>. He was (is?)
a Microsoft employee. Offhand, I'd guess that Gates would be
very interested in an emulation that could run the old BASIC.
There's no reason for him to surrender the copyright; we could
merely ask for permission to redistribute. I think the PR aspect
would be a two-edged sword, though - the open source movement
would have a field day with the notion that Gates finally came
around and now allows free distribution of one of his products,
yet I'm sure Microsoft's PR agency could get some mileage from
his benevolence to the classic computer community.
- John
Curious what the copyright situation on BASIC (or
related
products) is? Certainly Gate's hasn't released it into
public domain.
No, and he got pretty upset about people redistributing it without
authorization. But that was a few years ago; maybe he's mellowed out
by now. :-) 
10 Nov
10 Nov
2:57 p.m.
Date sent: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 14:30:31 -0600
Send reply to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
From: John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Saved Altair 4K BASIC
There's no reason for him to surrender the
copyright; we could
merely ask for permission to redistribute. I think the PR aspect
would be a two-edged sword, though - the open source movement
would have a field day with the notion that Gates finally came
around and now allows free distribution of one of his products,
yet I'm sure Microsoft's PR agency could get some mileage from
his benevolence to the classic computer community.
My experience (and knowledge gained from talking to Bob Cringely) is that
Bill's PR machine is trained from birth to say "No." and "I'm
sorry, but there's
no way in hell you can talk to Bill."
You can try, but I'm pretty sure your requests will go through several layers of
filtering and firewalls and end up in "File 13" without anyone actually reading
it
or bringing it to Chairman Bill's attention. I'm pretty sure that goodwill to the
computer hobbyist is the furthest thing from his mind.
Good luck.
Paul Braun
NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you.
nerdware(a)laidbak.com
www.laidbak.com/nerdware
9 Nov
9 Nov
7:34 a.m.
New subject: Elf99 - rebirth of a classic
To all 1802 enthisiasts:
I have been in discussion with some folks about 1802's and the possibility
of producing a modern PCB for the Popular Electronicss Elf design. Hans
Franke seems to think that there would be some interest in Germany for
a few units, enough to make me consider burning a board. I would be
curious to hear what other list members though about price, features, etc.
The good news is that Harris still makes the 1802 for less than $10, and
the TIL311 displays that the Elf calls for are available for less than $10
each, used.
How authentic should a modern Elf be? Try to use 1822/2101 RAM or use
cheaper 6264 SRAM chips? Add space for an optional 1861 video chip,
a-la the fourth part of the orginal Elf article? Add space for a 1854
UART? Add an I/O port? Add nothing to the Quest PCB layout? Remove
nothing? (There was a socket for a 16-pin PROM and room for onboard 7805
regulator as well as optional memory battery backup).
How much would anyone pay for such a thing? The PCB would probably come
as a double-sided, plated thru-hole fiberglass board to the same dimensions
as the Quest board (I have one to compare it to). It would be in the
neighborhood of $40-$50, depending on how many extras and the order size.
If I got lots of orders, that price would plummet. I'm looking to make
25 on the first run, which is expensive in terms of startup costs. I
have ordered boards before (I make the GG2 Bus+ for the Amiga). Jobbing
out PCBs is no strange task to me.
Another question, perhaps more on topic - would this count as a classic?
It could be authentic as far as operation is concerned (toggle switches
and 256 bytes of accessible RAM), but it would still be on a modern
board, made recently. In short, does form or function denote "classic"?
Yes, anyone who wants can still breadboard an 1802 together. It's a
pain. I never would have finished my Elf if I hadn't had the PCB
to stuff. The Elf99 would be a echo of the former classic, but a
fully working one.
Classic clones, anyone?
-ethan
9:25 a.m.
New subject: Elf99 - rebirth of a classic
On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Ethan Dicks wrote:
How much would anyone pay for such a thing? The PCB
would probably come
as a double-sided, plated thru-hole fiberglass board to the same dimensions
as the Quest board (I have one to compare it to). It would be in the
neighborhood of $40-$50, depending on how many extras and the order size.
If I got lots of orders, that price would plummet. I'm looking to make
25 on the first run, which is expensive in terms of startup costs. I
have ordered boards before (I make the GG2 Bus+ for the Amiga). Jobbing
out PCBs is no strange task to me.
The interesting aspect of this is that it would be the first commercially
produced replication of a vintage computer, and that in itself might make
it highly collectable :) But yeah, if it could be made with a profit
margin for you for under $30 I would be interested in buying one to use as
a hands-on demonstration unit to allow people to see how real hobbyists
computed in the early days of hobbyist computing.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 11/02/98]
3:35 p.m.
New subject: Elf99 - rebirth of a classic
On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Ethan Dicks wrote:
I did think of that, in the sense that with Altairs going through the
roof on ePay, it's no longer absurd to contemplate replica classics,
at least simple ones. I have *no* interest in replicating anything more
complex than a 70's micro up to and including the battery-powered PDP-8
on a card, the Intersil Intercept, Jr.
How much would anyone pay for such a thing
[replica 1802]?
The interesting aspect of this is that it would be the first commercially
produced replication of a vintage computer, and that in itself might make
it highly collectable :) But yeah, if it could be made with a profit
margin for you for under $30 I would be interested in buying one to use as
a hands-on demonstration unit to allow people to see how real hobbyists
computed in the early days of hobbyist computing.
That's my basic feeling, too. After all, I already have an Elf and a VIP,
but I still think that the 1802 is one of the coolest microprocessors around.
I mean, who knows when you are going to need a rad hardened 256 byte computer?
I'll put you down, too. So far, this is the closest thing I've seen to
a price limit. I'm sure I can move 10 or 20 of these things, depending
on price. If I can't do it for under $99, I won't. That said, I can't
imagine that it would be that much unless I really get boned on switches
and incidentals. I would still like to know how much a repro Elf is worth
to people. You can spare the list and mail me at erd(a)infinet.com. I'll
collect all comments.
Thanks,
-ethan
10 Nov
10 Nov
2:42 p.m.
Date sent: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:53:04 -0500 (EST)
Send reply to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
From: cswiger <cswiger(a)wilma.widomaker.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Saved Altair 4K BASIC
<<snip>>
Curious what the copyright situation on BASIC (or
related
products) is? Certainly Gate's hasn't released it into
public domain.
Considering that BASIC was a language developed and written by somebody
else, and that Gates & Allen simply took someone else's language and
adapted it for a specific machine (like, say, for example, QDOS) (OK, they paid
a little for it. But it started out as someone else's..) it still seems kinda odd that
he would get so bent out of shape about somebody stealing a copy of the
program that he himself stole.
But who are we to question. He managed to turn that skill into a tidy sum.
I love the comment someone on the list made about hiring 10,000 programmers
and deluging the market with bad software. The only problem is, everyone just
said "OK, Bill. Here's my checking account. Don't worry about fixing the bugs
--
kinda gives your software 'character'."
Paul Braun
NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you.
nerdware(a)laidbak.com
www.laidbak.com/nerdware
11 Nov
11 Nov
4:03 p.m.
On 10 Nov 98 at 22:42, Paul Braun wrote:
Date sent: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:53:04 -0500 (EST)
Send reply to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
From: cswiger <cswiger(a)wilma.widomaker.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Saved Altair 4K BASIC
<<snip>>
Lest some of the younger people assume BG wrote BASIC , it was around since
being developed in 1963 at Dartmouth. To quote Paul Friedman from "Basic ....."
"As long as you stick with the "core" statements of BASIC. you can move
your
programs from computer to computer with relative ease." MS Basic was just one
version of an extended BASIC. ANSI Minimal BASIC was set up to try and
standardize BASIC. His MSBASIC was no great feat except that it became the most
used and familiar.
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
Curious what the copyright situation on BASIC (or
related
products) is? Certainly Gate's hasn't released it into
public domain.
Considering that BASIC was a language developed and written by somebody
else, and that Gates & Allen simply took someone else's language and
adapted it for a specific machine (like, say, for example, QDOS) (OK, they paid
a little for it. But it started out as someone else's..) it still seems kinda odd
that
he would get so bent out of shape about somebody stealing a copy of the
program that he himself stole.
But who are we to question. He managed to turn that skill into a tidy sum.
I love the comment someone on the list made about hiring 10,000 programmers
and deluging the market with bad software. The only problem is, everyone just
said "OK, Bill. Here's my checking account. Don't worry about fixing the
bugs --
kinda gives your software 'character'."
12 Nov
12 Nov
12:34 a.m.
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9535
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10 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
a.kotsenos＠rca.ac.uk -
ckaiser＠oa.ptloma.edu -
cswiger＠wilma.widomaker.com -
dastar＠ncal.verio.com -
erd＠infinet.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
lwalker＠mail.interlog.com -
nerdware＠laidbak.com