11 Dec
2008
11 Dec
'08
2:29 p.m.
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:57:08 +0100 (CET)
From: Christian Corti <cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>
Subject: RE: USB Model M
<snip>
what should I say... don't trust them.
...
IBM has never called the keyboard model M
<snip>
Christian
----------Reply:
Really? Odd, mine all say IBM in big letters on the front and back,
and "Model M" quite clearly on the back (M2 on the newer ones).
I wonder; do you suppose someone else printed that on there?
Maybe they're counterfeit...
Can I trust what *you* say?
;-)
Or did I misunderstand something?
m
11 Dec
11 Dec
2:29 p.m.
M H Stein wrote:
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:57:08 +0100 (CET)
From: Christian Corti <cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>
Subject: RE: USB Model M
<snip>
what should I say... don't trust them.
...
IBM has never called the keyboard model M
<snip>
Christian
----------Reply:
Really? Odd, mine all say IBM in big letters on the front and back,
and "Model M" quite clearly on the back (M2 on the newer ones).
Hmm, mine* (IBM p/n 1390120) says "Model M" on the underside label - maybe
they dropped it for later ones though (mine's a 1986 and I believe a 'first
generation'; it lacks the status LEDs)
* Thanks again, Bill :)
(I wonder why they were called Model M - anyone know?)
cheers
Jules
5:59 p.m.
Jules Richardson wrote:
M H Stein wrote:
Mine (IBM p/n 139-1406) doesn't say Model M anywhere, although it does
say "IBM" on the top and "Lexmark" on the bottom...
Gordon
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:57:08 +0100 (CET)
From: Christian Corti <cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>
Subject: RE: USB Model M
<snip>
what should I say... don't trust them. ...
IBM has never called the keyboard model M
<snip>
Christian
----------Reply:
Really? Odd, mine all say IBM in big letters on the front and back,
and "Model M" quite clearly on the back (M2 on the newer ones).
Hmm, mine* (IBM p/n 1390120) says "Model M" on the underside label -
maybe they dropped it for later ones though (mine's a 1986 and I believe
a 'first generation'; it lacks the status LEDs)
12 Dec
12 Dec
1:12 p.m.
(Re: Christian's message about real Model M's)
I've got other Model M's with different part numbers--the Wang model
has "double" keycaps, each with an outer shell., presumably for easy
customization. They all say "Model M".
But to the point of "real" Model M's, have a look at the
clickykeyboard exhibits:
http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/
9230
There you have Model M's from early 1986. In every case, the label
on the underside identifies it clearly as "Model M". Perhaps only
the versions of this keyboard produced in the UK lack the
appellation.
For all I know, "Model M" in British English might refer to an off-
color(colour) joke and so was omitted. Or the person designing the
label for the UK model thought that "Model M" was unnecessary. But
all of the USA-made units that I've seen all say "Model M" on the
label.
Cheers,
Chuck
2:05 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
For all I know, "Model M" in British English
might refer to an off-
color(colour) joke and so was omitted. Or the person designing the
label for the UK model thought that "Model M" was unnecessary.
Well... there was presumably a change in the internal keyboard layout to
accommodate a 102 (rather than US 101) key design. If that fab was done by IBM
outside of the US then it seems entirely possible that they retained important
bits (s/n, p/n and "IBM" text) but that the "Model M" name became lost
somewhere.
(I believe that the 102-key layout was sufficiently generic for most non-US
markets, so it wouldn't surprise me if other non-US Model M's lack the
branding too)
I can't think of a reason why "Model M" would either have been frowned upon
in
the UK or infringed on some other keyboard-related territory that involved the
name. I suspect it's pure fate (and not even a screw-up).
2:34 p.m.
On 12 Dec 2008 at 13:05, Jules Richardson wrote:
Well... there was presumably a change in the internal
keyboard layout to
accommodate a 102 (rather than US 101) key design. If that fab was done by IBM
outside of the US then it seems entirely possible that they retained important
bits (s/n, p/n and "IBM" text) but that the "Model M" name became
lost somewhere.
Wandering around the clickykeyboards site, it's quite apparent that
for the keyboards manufactured in the UK, the "Model M" labeling is
missing. US-manufactured ones seem to all have the "Model M" tag,
regardless of 101- or 102-key-edness or date of manufacture.
See, for example, the Spanish examples here:
http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/
11067/endrw/12
I suppose we could say that keyboards manufactured in the UK are not
"real" model M's, but that would open another can of worms...
Cheers,
Chuck
11 Dec
11 Dec
6:24 p.m.
On 11 Dec 2008 at 22:59, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote:
Mine (IBM p/n 139-1406) doesn't say Model M
anywhere, although it does
say "IBM" on the top and "Lexmark" on the bottom...
Mine says "IBM" on the bottom ((c) IBM Corp. 1984) and "Wang" on the
top.
Cheers,
Chuck
10:10 p.m.
Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote:
Mine (IBM p/n 139-1406) doesn't say Model M
anywhere, although it does
say "IBM" on the top and "Lexmark" on the bottom...
One of my many model Ms has no labels on it and has "PENIS" written on
it in magic marker.
There were a *lot* of revisions and end-user mods.
Peace... Sridhar
10:25 p.m.
On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 9:10 PM, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote:
One of my many model Ms has no labels on it and has
"PENIS" written on it in
magic marker.
There were a *lot* of revisions and end-user mods.
I have many, but I don't have that one. Nor do I have a Spacesaver
model. But I did find one with APL keycaps :)
10:48 p.m.
Jason T wrote:
I have one of the spacesavers, but not one of the APL ones.
Peace... Sridhar
One of my many
model Ms has no labels on it and has "PENIS" written on it in
magic marker.
There were a *lot* of revisions and end-user mods.
I have many, but I don't have that one. Nor do I have a Spacesaver
model. But I did find one with APL keycaps :) 
6:15 p.m.
On Mon, 15 Dec 2008, Alexandre Souza wrote:
How about Mmmmmmm. I splashed solder on mine. Currently I have one
completely stripped until I can get a USB driver board worked out that I
like. Talking to the two guys who already made USB boards, implementing a
USB 2.0 hub is beyond the capabilities of AVR microcontrollers. Anyone
know of an easily-obtainable USB 2.0 chip that's not a pain to solder?
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
(I wonder why
they were called Model M - anyone know?)
M de "iMdestructible" or M de "MACHO" :)
This is a very MACHO keyboard :oD
What was the biggest abuse you took with your M? :o)
16 Dec
16 Dec
2:58 p.m.
David Griffith wrote:
Well, my PS/2-USB adapter just arrived in the mail. Plugged it in, and it Just
Worked (tm) - I don't think I've ever had anything do that in Linux before :-)
The adapter's pretty small, but I can't find a suitable socket bit in my
toolbox that's slimline enough to use to take the Model M case apart so I can
see if it'll fit inside comfortably.
Re. Model M itself - it's nice to be typing on one; I've suffered a laptop
keyboard for far too long! My only criticism of it is that the right-hand
shift key seems to require fairly central pressing in order to work (i.e. I
can't just reach across from the cursor keys and tap the end) - does anyone
know if they changed this (i.e. added a metal travel-assist bar as with the
spacebar, keypad enter key etc.) on the later models?
cheers
Jules
(basking in clicky goodness)
What was
the biggest abuse you took with your M? :o)
How about Mmmmmmm. I splashed solder on mine. Currently I have one
completely stripped until I can get a USB driver board worked out that I
like.
4:24 p.m.
Jules Richardson wrote:
David Griffith wrote:
Well, my PS/2-USB adapter just arrived in the mail. Plugged it in, and
it Just Worked (tm) - I don't think I've ever had anything do that in
Linux before :-)
You tend to find that with USB devices in Linux - they either Just Plain
Work, or are totally unsupported.
I know a lot of people in here don't seem to like USB, but it reduces
all the device-to-host interfacing to a Small Matter Of Programming.
None of this tedious mucking about with IO ports, and interrupts, and
getting the timing absolutely bang on - you just read packets off the
interface ;-)
Gordon
What
was the biggest abuse you took with your M? :o)
How about Mmmmmmm. I splashed solder on mine. Currently I have one
completely stripped until I can get a USB driver board worked out that I
like. 
4:36 p.m.
I love USB devices, so easy to use and (in my experience so far) absolutely no drivers
required (on Windows 2K atleast), just plug and play :)
However, it sucks when I want (or need) to use said devices with my classic Amiga's.
Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk
--- On Tue, 16/12/08, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ <gordonjcp at gjcp.net> wrote:
You tend to find that with USB devices in Linux - they either Just Plain Work,
or are totally unsupported.
I know a lot of people in here don't seem to like USB, but it reduces all
the device-to-host interfacing to a Small Matter Of Programming. None of this
tedious mucking about with IO ports, and interrupts, and getting the timing
absolutely bang on - you just read packets off the interface ;-)
Gordon
4:59 p.m.
Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote:
I know a lot of people in here don't seem to like
USB, but it reduces
all the device-to-host interfacing to a Small Matter Of Programming.
None of this tedious mucking about with IO ports, and interrupts, and
getting the timing absolutely bang on - you just read packets off the
interface ;-)
I have a small uC device that I made that uses an FTDI USB->TTL
converter. I wish USB was as straight-forward as you describe. I'm
currently running into problems when transferring, very quickly, some
data from the uC to the PC. The problems are related to overrunning the
PC, where the PC isn't scheduling reads from the device fast enough to
prevent drops. At least interrupt-based I/O can "demand" attention from
the cpu at any time, where USB is at the mercy of being scheduled.
I'm now implementing an xmodem-like ACK/NAK block based protocol on top
of USB, in addition to setting USB read-size to the precise size of a
block to obtain more efficient usage.
Gordon
Keith
7:19 p.m.
On 16 Dec 2008 at 16:59, Keith wrote:
I have a small uC device that I made that uses an FTDI
USB->TTL
converter. I wish USB was as straight-forward as you describe. I'm
currently running into problems when transferring, very quickly, some
data from the uC to the PC. The problems are related to overrunning the
PC, where the PC isn't scheduling reads from the device fast enough to
prevent drops. At least interrupt-based I/O can "demand" attention from
the cpu at any time, where USB is at the mercy of being scheduled.
I'm probably stating what you are already aware of, but on the off-
chance that it sheds some light...
Don't those things have a FIFO--something like 384 bytes?
Regardless, there are two basic modes of operation on those things--
the first is single-character "comm port" type transfer; the second
is block-mode transfer (as you'd see in a storage device). Single-
mode transfers have considerable overhead, severely limiting the
speed. Unfortunately, most of the FTDI development kits include
drivers for only the former mode and not the block mode.
FWIW,
Chuck
18 Dec
18 Dec
2:44 a.m.
I have a small uC device that I made that uses an FTDI
USB->TTL
converter. I wish USB was as straight-forward as you describe. I'm
currently running into problems when transferring, very quickly, some
data from the uC to the PC. The problems are related to overrunning the
PC, where the PC isn't scheduling reads from the device fast enough to
prevent drops. At least interrupt-based I/O can "demand" attention from
the cpu at any time, where USB is at the mercy of being scheduled.
I do that at 921kbps and had no issues.
20 Dec
20 Dec
6:29 p.m.
Alexandre Souza wrote:
I have just finished a project with a PIC32 (MIPS32 core) working as a
voice codec and talking to a linux PC over the USB buss. We got it up to
310 kBytes/s and not dropping a single package during hours of running.
The communication on the PIC side is solved by constantly polling the
USB bus to catch every event.
We had problems with package dropped every ten seconds or so but we
traced it back to a iproute cache flush that the kernel was doing.
The USB bus is fast but with standard hardware it isn't hard to get the
speed up. If you have problem with overruns, check if the PC is doing
some periodic maintainancy or there are any other devices using the bus.
Sorry for being a bit OT but just to add a bit of nostalgia to my post,
my next hobby project will be a transputer link to USB interface.
:-)
/G?ran
I have a small
uC device that I made that uses an FTDI USB->TTL
converter. I wish USB was as straight-forward as you describe. I'm
currently running into problems when transferring, very quickly, some
data from the uC to the PC. The problems are related to overrunning
the PC, where the PC isn't scheduling reads from the device fast
enough to prevent drops. At least interrupt-based I/O can "demand"
attention from the cpu at any time, where USB is at the mercy of
being scheduled.
I do that at 921kbps and had no issues. 
17 Dec
17 Dec
1:39 p.m.
I know a lot of people in here don't seem to like
USB, but it reduces
Well, i object to the name for a start. It's not Universal (in that of
the 200 or so computers I own, not one of them has a USB port or can have
a USB port). It is serial. It's not a bus , at least not electrically. I
guess one aout of 3 is not too bad :-(
all the device-to-host interfacing to a Small Matter
Of Programming.
For suitable values of 'small'. It's a lot harder to send/.recive data on
a USB port (both in terms of hardware and software) than to use any of
the 'classic interfaces' like RS232, Centronics, GPIO, HPIB, etc.
None of this tedious mucking about with IO ports, and
interrupts, and
That is something that's never bothered me. And anyway, the main reason
for all that faffing about is that the PC architcture was broken. It's a
lot easier on other systems.
-tony
11:23 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
For suitable values of 'small'. It's a lot
harder to send/.recive data on
a USB port (both in terms of hardware and software) than to use any of
the 'classic interfaces' like RS232, Centronics, GPIO, HPIB, etc.
Amen to that. From a hobbyist interfacing standpoint, there is quite a
bit of HW nwoledge needed to handle USB devices, ignoring the
programming aspects.
Consistency demands that I not reject USB, but I do hope none of the
older interface standards die out, because many of them are easier to
understand from the beginner's perspective.
18 Dec
18 Dec
8:24 a.m.
Jim Brain wrote:
Consistency demands that I not reject USB, but I do
hope none of the
older interface standards die out, because many of them are easier to
understand from the beginner's perspective.
For me it's more that the older interfaces do what they do very well. I hate
having to change technology just for the sake of it, particularly if that
involves a leap in complexity along the way.
2:13 p.m.
For me it's more that the older interfaces do what
they do very well. I hate
having to change technology just for the sake of it, particularly if that
involves a leap in complexity along the way.
That's much my attitude too, and not just about interfaces. I see no
reason at all to replace a solution that works with one that's untested
(at least by me) which may or may not have advantages (and often, alas,
has problems). If I have something that does the job I want it to, then
I'll stick with it.
-tony
2:51 a.m.
Well, i object to the name for a start. It's not
Universal (in that of
the 200 or so computers I own, not one of them has a USB port or can have
a USB port). It is serial. It's not a bus , at least not electrically. I
guess one aout of 3 is not too bad :-(
It is universal since you can create a usb host interface for anything
you have :)
For suitable values of 'small'. It's a lot
harder to send/.recive data on
a USB port (both in terms of hardware and software) than to use any of
the 'classic interfaces' like RS232, Centronics, GPIO, HPIB, etc.
It depends of what you are using. I have a FT-232 here and it is
transparent to me as a serial port. Electricaly it is a bit complicated, but
clearly possible to do bitbanging and creating a usb slave. Look for
igorplug on the net, and see a totally software solution for that.
:o)
Alexandre
16 Dec
16 Dec
4:31 p.m.
On Tue, 16 Dec 2008, Jules Richardson wrote:
David Griffith wrote:
Well, my PS/2-USB adapter just arrived in the mail. Plugged it in, and it Just
Worked (tm) - I don't think I've ever had anything do that in Linux before :-)
The adapter's pretty small, but I can't find a suitable socket bit in my
toolbox that's slimline enough to use to take the Model M case apart so I can
see if it'll fit inside comfortably.
Re. Model M itself - it's nice to be typing on one; I've suffered a laptop
keyboard for far too long! My only criticism of it is that the right-hand
shift key seems to require fairly central pressing in order to work (i.e. I
can't just reach across from the cursor keys and tap the end) - does anyone
know if they changed this (i.e. added a metal travel-assist bar as with the
spacebar, keypad enter key etc.) on the later models?
My Model Ms have a travel-assist bar only for the space bar. The
right-hand shift spans two studs and uses the second stud for smooth
actuation no matter where you press.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
What
was the biggest abuse you took with your M? :o)
How about Mmmmmmm. I splashed solder on mine. Currently I have one
completely stripped until I can get a USB driver board worked out that I
like.
4:45 p.m.
On 16 Dec 2008 at 13:58, Jules Richardson wrote:
Re. Model M itself - it's nice to be typing on
one; I've suffered a laptop
keyboard for far too long! My only criticism of it is that the right-hand
shift key seems to require fairly central pressing in order to work (i.e. I
can't just reach across from the cursor keys and tap the end) - does anyone
know if they changed this (i.e. added a metal travel-assist bar as with the
spacebar, keypad enter key etc.) on the later models?
Hmmm, the right shift on all my model M keyboards is just fine. But
they're all the 101-key models. Is yours perchance a 102-key
version?
Cheers,
Chuck
6:45 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 16 Dec 2008 at 13:58, Jules Richardson wrote:
Nope, it's a 101 - I expect it's just 20 years' worth of age! I'll try
Sridhar's suggestion and give it a light oiling with something.
(I'm typing next to the wife at the mo - I'm surprised she hasn't mentioned
about the noise yet :-)
cheers
Jules
Re. Model M itself - it's nice to be typing
on one; I've suffered a laptop
keyboard for far too long! My only criticism of it is that the right-hand
shift key seems to require fairly central pressing in order to work (i.e. I
can't just reach across from the cursor keys and tap the end) - does anyone
know if they changed this (i.e. added a metal travel-assist bar as with the
spacebar, keypad enter key etc.) on the later models?
Hmmm, the right shift on all my model M keyboards is just fine. But
they're all the 101-key models. Is yours perchance a 102-key
version?
3:23 p.m.
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008, Alexandre Souza wrote:
I pop the keys off and blow out the cruft that way. Works for me. I
stripped one because it was in ten years of continuous service. It was
quite filthy when I opened it.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
Nope, it's
a 101 - I expect it's just 20 years' worth of age! I'll try
Sridhar's suggestion and give it a light oiling with something.
BTW, anyone with a clue how to keep this beast clean? Mine gets dirty 1 to
3 months after throughout cleaning :( 
5:29 p.m.
Fred Cisin wrote:
YOU CAN"T USE THAT ... YOU COOK YOUR FISH IN A DISWASHER
(oldwives tale)
BTW,
anyone with a clue how to keep this beast clean? Mine gets dirty 1
to 3 months after throughout cleaning :(
dishwasher
Get a spare Model M for the cats -
a model M is to cats what a beaded seat cushion is to a taxi driver.
I thought that was any tall rack, with a warm computer hiding in it.
6:37 p.m.
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote:
No, you cook on the exhaust manifold (Sorry, Jay)
and use a Pentium to singe grill marks
combine the two and the cat may decide that you deserve to live
dishwasher
YOU CAN"T USE THAT ... YOU COOK YOUR FISH IN A DISWASHER
(oldwives tale) a model M is
to cats what a beaded seat cushion is to a taxi driver.
I thought that was any tall
rack, with a warm computer hiding in it. 
7:38 p.m.
When considering one of our lab environments when I was at Microsoft, I interjected into
the discussion of cooling: "Let's boil the wort on the P100s, and mash on top of
the drive arrays!" That's the day our PM and I (the test manager) bonded.... --
Ian
________________________________________
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
Fred Cisin [cisin at xenosoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 3:37 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: USB Model M
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote:
No, you cook on the exhaust manifold (Sorry, Jay)
and use a Pentium to singe grill marks
combine the two and the cat may decide that you deserve to live
dishwasher
YOU CAN"T USE THAT ... YOU COOK YOUR FISH IN A DISWASHER
(oldwives tale) a model M is
to cats what a beaded seat cushion is to a taxi driver.
I thought that was any tall
rack, with a warm computer hiding in it.
5:46 p.m.
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008, Fred Cisin wrote:
No! Look here instead: http://www.preater.com/modelm/
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
BTW,
anyone with a clue how to keep this beast clean? Mine gets dirty 1
to 3 months after throughout cleaning :(
dishwasher
19 Dec
19 Dec
2:24 p.m.
Get a spare Model M for the cats -
a model M is to cats what a beaded seat cushion is to a taxi driver.
What is it about classic computer enthusiasts and cats :-)
Pentina, the cat who choses to live with me, has a love of anything HP.
Given a few piles of manuals, he'll curl up on top of the HP ones.
Unfortunately (for me) there's a heck of a lot of HP stuff around here...
-tony
16 Dec
16 Dec
5:46 p.m.
Jules Richardson wrote:
Re. Model M itself - it's nice to be typing on
one; I've suffered a
laptop keyboard for far too long! My only criticism of it is that the
right-hand shift key seems to require fairly central pressing in order
to work (i.e. I can't just reach across from the cursor keys and tap the
end) - does anyone know if they changed this (i.e. added a metal
travel-assist bar as with the spacebar, keypad enter key etc.) on the
later models?
I know for a fact that they didn't. Try a mild lubricant.
Peace... Sridhar
6:42 p.m.
Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Jules Richardson wrote:
Yep, will do. If that doesn't work then I can just get used to it I think,
it's not really *that* big a deal.
cheers
Jules
Re. Model M itself - it's nice to be typing
on one; I've suffered a
laptop keyboard for far too long! My only criticism of it is that the
right-hand shift key seems to require fairly central pressing in order
to work (i.e. I can't just reach across from the cursor keys and tap
the end) - does anyone know if they changed this (i.e. added a metal
travel-assist bar as with the spacebar, keypad enter key etc.) on the
later models?
I know for a fact that they didn't. Try a mild lubricant.
17 Dec
17 Dec
1:47 p.m.
Jules Richardson wrote:
Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Well, sewing machine oil's the lightest stuff I had to hand, and that actually
makes things worse (in that the key likes to not return from the down position
if oiled). Clock/watch oil might be better if I order some in...
There's no obvious signs of wear on the shift key mechanism (as compared to
other keys) or on the keyboard itself (i.e. the pillars that support the key)
or other debris which might be fouling things up.
If I put the Ctrl key where the shift key is then I can press that on the
right-hand edge and it works fine (although it doesn't extend out to the right
quite as far as the shift key does). I suspect that it's the 'unsprung'
support on the left hand side of the shift key that's fouling - pressing the
shift key makes it rotate slightly and jam up in the left support.
(I'm not yet sure how the little white plastic inserts on the unsprung key
supports come out, but as a test maybe I can swap one of those in from
elsewhere and see if things improve)
cheers
Jules
Jules Richardson wrote:
Yep, will do. If that doesn't work then I can just get used to it I
think, it's not really *that* big a deal. Re. Model M itself - it's nice to be typing
on one; I've suffered a
laptop keyboard for far too long! My only criticism of it is that the
right-hand shift key seems to require fairly central pressing in
order to work (i.e. I can't just reach across from the cursor keys
and tap the end) - does anyone know if they changed this (i.e. added
a metal travel-assist bar as with the spacebar, keypad enter key
etc.) on the later models?
I know for a fact that they didn't. Try a mild lubricant.
2:18 p.m.
On 17 Dec 2008 at 12:47, Jules Richardson wrote:
Well, sewing machine oil's the lightest stuff I
had to hand, and that actually
makes things worse (in that the key likes to not return from the down position
if oiled). Clock/watch oil might be better if I order some in...
I think that a dry silicone spray lube might be the best choice. I
hope that oil hasn't really gummed things up.
Cheers,
Chuck
3:08 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 17 Dec 2008 at 12:47, Jules Richardson wrote:
No, no harm done to the mechanism... and you might be right about the dry
silicone; maybe that's a good thing to try (I must say that I'm always
reluctant to oil anything which wasn't ever oiled in the first place!)
cheers
Jules
Well, sewing machine oil's the lightest stuff
I had to hand, and that actually
makes things worse (in that the key likes to not return from the down position
if oiled). Clock/watch oil might be better if I order some in...
I think that a dry silicone spray lube might be the best choice. I
hope that oil hasn't really gummed things up. 
11:27 p.m.
Jules Richardson wrote:
Chuck Guzis wrote:
I read somewhere to use PTFE dry lube spray....
I've not located any yet in my few casual attempts to pick some
up however.
Anyone ever use this on a keyboard ?
-- Curt
On 17 Dec 2008 at 12:47, Jules Richardson wrote:
No, no harm done to the mechanism... and you might be right about the
dry silicone; maybe that's a good thing to try (I must say that I'm
always reluctant to oil anything which wasn't ever oiled in the first
place!) Well, sewing machine oil's the lightest stuff
I had to hand, and
that actually makes things worse (in that the key likes to not
return from the down position if oiled). Clock/watch oil might be
better if I order some in...
I think that a dry silicone spray lube might be the best choice. I
hope that oil hasn't really gummed things up.
cheers
Jules
11:30 p.m.
On Wednesday 17 December 2008 11:27:28 pm Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote:
Jules Richardson wrote:
Have you tried an auto parts store? I'm not remembering anything specific
offhand but for some reason that comes to mind.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
I read somewhere to use PTFE dry lube spray....
I've not located any yet in my few casual attempts to pick some
up however. On 17 Dec 2008 at 12:47, Jules Richardson wrote:
No, no harm done to the mechanism... and you might be right about the
dry silicone; maybe that's a good thing to try (I must say that I'm
always reluctant to oil anything which wasn't ever oiled in the first
place!) Well, sewing machine oil's the lightest stuff
I had to hand, and
that actually makes things worse (in that the key likes to not
return from the down position if oiled). Clock/watch oil might be
better if I order some in...
I think that a dry silicone spray lube might be the best choice. I
hope that oil hasn't really gummed things up. Anyone ever use this on a keyboard ?
I've not tried it here yet, but then the two model M keyboards I have here
aren't giving me any grief.
BTW, are you still receiving emails from this direction?
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
11:51 p.m.
On 17 Dec 2008 at 23:27, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote:
I read somewhere to use PTFE dry lube spray....
I've not located any yet in my few casual attempts to pick some
up however.
Probably any dry aerosol used to lubricate locks would be fine, but
not graphite. I find several brands of silicone aerosol at the local
hardware store. I haven't looked for PTFE spray, but I'm not
enthusiastic about the PTFE lubricants that I've used that were
suspensions in an oil base.
I know that the firearms crowd uses various dry lubricants (Dri-
Slide, Eezox, Tetra) but I don't know how they'd work in this
application. Moly disulfide lube like Dri-Slide might be messy,
though.
I'd steer clear of any oil, even watch oil--it'll just attract dirt.
If the crud in my own keyboard is any indication, that's not
something that you'd want.
Cheers,
Chuck
11:54 p.m.
On Wed, 17 Dec 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 17 Dec 2008 at 23:27, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote:
Perhaps the spray lubes often used by Rubik's Cube people will do well.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
I read somewhere to use PTFE dry lube spray....
I've not located any yet in my few casual attempts to pick some
up however.
Probably any dry aerosol used to lubricate locks would be fine, but
not graphite. I find several brands of silicone aerosol at the local
hardware store. I haven't looked for PTFE spray, but I'm not
enthusiastic about the PTFE lubricants that I've used that were
suspensions in an oil base.
I know that the firearms crowd uses various dry lubricants (Dri-
Slide, Eezox, Tetra) but I don't know how they'd work in this
application. Moly disulfide lube like Dri-Slide might be messy,
though.
I'd steer clear of any oil, even watch oil--it'll just attract dirt.
If the crud in my own keyboard is any indication, that's not
something that you'd want.
18 Dec
18 Dec
8:43 a.m.
David Griffith wrote:
Does Rubik's cube lube come in a tube? :-)
I think I'm wary of anything used by the gun and automotive crowd just because
the fact that it works on metal doesn't necessarily mean that it won't harm
plastics - but something that says it works with plastics is probably the best
bet.
I do think the problem I'm having is the key binding due to twisting when
pressed - the right shift key does appear to be the longest key that has an
additional unsprung support and yet doesn't have a travel bar beneath, so on
an old keyboard (that's potentially seen a lot of use) it's probably not
surprising that it's the first to have problems.
It's fine if pressed in the middle 50%. The left 25% feels a little less
smooth, but still doesn't bind - it's only when pressed on the right 25% (i.e.
anywhere to the right of the spring center) that it's prone to not going down
(or, once in a while, going down and then sticking in the down position).
I'll see what I can find for dry lubes anyway - if no luck there then I'll
investigate adding a travel bar to the underside of the key...
cheers
Jules
I'd steer
clear of any oil, even watch oil--it'll just attract dirt.
If the crud in my own keyboard is any indication, that's not
something that you'd want.
Perhaps the spray lubes often used by Rubik's Cube people will do well.
17 Dec
17 Dec
5:57 p.m.
On Tuesday 16 December 2008 02:58:39 pm Jules Richardson wrote:
David Griffith wrote:
Well, my PS/2-USB adapter just arrived in the mail. Plugged it in, and it
Just Worked (tm) - I don't think I've ever had anything do that in Linux
before :-)
I recently switched from a slightly older laptop to the one I'm using now,
and the difference is that the older one had a PS2 port and a single USB
connector, while the newer one has only a couple of USB connectors and _no_
PS2 port. A visit to my local computer junk shop and less than $5 of expense
got me one, I plugged it in, and it's worked just fine ever since. Under
linux, yeah. The only odd behavior is that every now and then I'll hit a
key and nothing happens, but that may be the keyboard, I dunno (and yes,
it's a Model M).
What
was the biggest abuse you took with your M? :o)
How about Mmmmmmm. I splashed solder on mine. Currently I have one
completely stripped until I can get a USB driver board worked out that I
like. The adapter's pretty small, but I can't find a
suitable socket bit in my
toolbox that's slimline enough to use to take the Model M case apart so I
can see if it'll fit inside comfortably.
This one's about an inch square by about half an inch thick. Does both
keyboard and mouse, as I'm not fond of that little "pointing device" built
into the laptops, either of them.
Socket bit? Oh, I see what you mean. I've never had this apart and never
took notice of that. Good quality tools are generally thinner metal for any
given size, I like Snap-On for that. :-)
Re. Model M itself - it's nice to be typing on
one; I've suffered a laptop
keyboard for far too long!
I can't imagine trying to do any significant amount of typing on one. A bit
here and there, yeah, but not much...
My only criticism of it is that the right-hand shift
key seems to require
fairly central pressing in order to work (i.e. I can't just reach across
from the cursor keys and tap the end) - does anyone know if they changed
this (i.e. added a metal travel-assist bar as with the spacebar, keypad
enter key etc.) on the later models?
cheers
Jules
(basking in clicky goodness)
(Clickety-click... :-)
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
6:57 p.m.
Roy J. Tellason wrote:
Yeah, I have an external USB mouse (Microsoft, of all people) that I normally
use. I can handle a trackpad for about 5 minutes and then it drives me nuts.
I kind of got used to it I suppose - the keys are rather squishy, but that's
true of 90% of full-sized modern PC keyboards anyway. It was the layout which
bugged me (no right-hand ctrl key, for instance), and then when one of the
dogs decided to hop on the desk and trample it it was Game Over :-)
cheers
Jules
On Tuesday 16 December 2008 02:58:39 pm Jules
Richardson wrote:
Yep, that was my situation (well, 3 USB ports, but no "proper" connectivity :-)
David Griffith wrote:
Well, my PS/2-USB adapter just arrived in the mail. Plugged it in, and it
Just Worked (tm) - I don't think I've ever had anything do that in Linux
before :-)
I recently switched from a slightly older laptop to the one I'm using now,
and the difference is that the older one had a PS2 port and a single USB
connector, while the newer one has only a couple of USB connectors and _no_
PS2 port. What
was the biggest abuse you took with your M? :o)
How about Mmmmmmm. I splashed
solder on mine. Currently I have one
completely stripped until I can get a USB driver board worked out that I
like. linux, yeah. The only odd behavior is that every now
and then I'll hit a
key and nothing happens, but that may be the keyboard, I dunno (and yes,
it's a Model M).
What age of Model M, out of interest? I wonder if they added USB support into
the hardware on the later ones (so they'd work with the "dumb" PS/2-USB
adapters), or if you got lucky and found a cheap "intelligent" adapter...
The
adapter's pretty small, but I can't find a suitable socket bit in my
toolbox that's slimline enough to use to take the Model M case apart so I
can see if it'll fit inside comfortably.
This one's about an inch square by about half an inch thick. Does both
keyboard and mouse, as I'm not fond of that little "pointing device" built
into the laptops, either of them. Socket bit? Oh, I see what you mean. I've never
had this apart and never
took notice of that. Good quality tools are generally thinner metal for any
given size, I like Snap-On for that. :-)
Heh, I hear ya. I've got a nice set currently in storage back in the UK so I'm
reluctant to go out and buy a nice set here in the US too. Maybe I'll borrow a
bit from someone as I'm itching to see inside this thing just because I can't
resist taking things apart :-)
Re. Model M
itself - it's nice to be typing on one; I've suffered a laptop
keyboard for far too long!
I can't imagine trying to do any significant amount of typing on one. A bit
here and there, yeah, but not much... 
9:45 p.m.
At 04:57 PM 12/17/2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote:
Under linux, yeah. The only odd behavior is that
every now and then I'll hit a
key and nothing happens, but that may be the keyboard, I dunno (and yes,
it's a Model M).
Funny you mention that. I'm using an older keyboard, AT-style,
running the AT to a dumb PS/2 converter, then to a mouse-and-keyboard
PS/2 to USB converter of today's $5 variety. Mine does the same thing
now and then. It seems to eat four-five chars or just stop sending
once or twice a day when I'm moving fast. Maybe it's due to weak
handling of rollover. This is under WinXP.
- John
10 p.m.
On Wednesday 17 December 2008 09:45:52 pm John Foust wrote:
At 04:57 PM 12/17/2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote:
XP exists on this machine, but I haven't used it enough to note the problem
there. Mostly I'm running under Slackware. :-)
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
Under linux, yeah. The only odd behavior is that
every now and then I'll
hit a key and nothing happens, but that may be the keyboard, I dunno
(and yes, it's a Model M).
Funny you mention that. I'm using an older keyboard, AT-style,
running the AT to a dumb PS/2 converter, then to a mouse-and-keyboard
PS/2 to USB converter of today's $5 variety. Mine does the same thing
now and then. It seems to eat four-five chars or just stop sending
once or twice a day when I'm moving fast. Maybe it's due to weak
handling of rollover. This is under WinXP. 
18 Dec
18 Dec
3:26 a.m.
It was thus said that the Great John Foust once stated:
At 04:57 PM 12/17/2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote:
I use a Model M with a PS/2-USB adaptor on both Linux and Mac (through a
Belkin 8-port KVM---hey, it was free!) without any problems.
-spc (Who has a stockpile of Model-M keyboards and won't give them
up ... )
Under linux, yeah. The only odd behavior is that
every now and then I'll hit a
key and nothing happens, but that may be the keyboard, I dunno (and yes,
it's a Model M).
Funny you mention that. I'm using an older keyboard, AT-style,
running the AT to a dumb PS/2 converter, then to a mouse-and-keyboard
PS/2 to USB converter of today's $5 variety. Mine does the same thing
now and then. It seems to eat four-five chars or just stop sending
once or twice a day when I'm moving fast. Maybe it's due to weak
handling of rollover. This is under WinXP.
6:48 p.m.
At 04:57 PM 12/17/2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote:
Under linux, yeah. The only odd behavior is that
every now and
then I'll hit a
key and nothing happens, but that may be the keyboard,
I dunno
(and yes,
it's a Model M).
That can be fixed. Simply add one of these in front of the converter
to supply those missing keystrokes:
http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/electronic/ae83/
Cheers,
Chuck
7:50 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
At 04:57 PM 12/17/2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote:
That's clever. How's about one for Windows systems which moves the mouse to
the start menu, invokes the 'run' option, and does <annoying thing of your
choice>...
Under linux, yeah. The only odd behavior is
that every now and
then I'll hit a
key and nothing happens, but that may be the
keyboard, I dunno
(and yes,
it's a Model M).
That can be fixed. Simply add one of these in front of the converter
to supply those missing keystrokes:
http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/electronic/ae83/ 
19 Dec
19 Dec
12:36 a.m.
A quick question - where can one get a cable for a Model M. I have a couple
of Model M's but no cables. Haven't really searched, but the discussion
reminded me.
Martin
1:53 a.m.
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008, Martin Marshall wrote:
A quick question - where can one get a cable for a
Model M. I have a couple
of Model M's but no cables. Haven't really searched, but the discussion
reminded me.
Right here: http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/cabdetmin.html
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
2:55 a.m.
Thanks - done
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 11:53 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: USB Model M
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008, Martin Marshall wrote:
A quick question - where can one get a cable for
a Model M.
I have a
couple of Model M's but no cables.
Haven't really
searched, but the
discussion reminded me.
Right here: http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/cabdetmin.html
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
18 Dec
18 Dec
6:07 a.m.
On Dec 17, 2008, at 5:57 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote:
You guys are using the wrong laptops. I've written tens (if not
hundreds) of thousands of lines of code on an Apple 17" Aluminum
PowerBook. That keyboard is so good that I went out and found a
desktop keyboard with the same mechanism. Now, I LOVE the venerable
Model M, but I can absolutely fly on one of these Al PowerBook (and
similar) keyboards.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Re. Model M
itself - it's nice to be typing on one; I've suffered
a laptop
keyboard for far too long!
I can't imagine trying to do any significant amount of typing on
one. A bit
here and there, yeah, but not much...
8:32 a.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
On Dec 17, 2008, at 5:57 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote:
You guys are using the wrong laptops.
I can think of a million design faults with mine - I'll never buy Dell again,
that's for sure (but I'll get my desktop machine over here at some point
anyway, so won't have to use a laptop so much then, thankfully).
cheers
J.
Re. Model
M itself - it's nice to be typing on one; I've suffered a
laptop
keyboard for far too long!
I can't imagine trying to do any significant amount of typing on one.
A bit
here and there, yeah, but not much...
5:03 p.m.
I like my Dell laptop!
The only thing I hated was the dreaded 'mouse drift', caused by the silly little
mouse stick (not sure what it's called) that lerks between the G,H and B keys. I soon
fixed that by going into the setup menu on bootup (I actually had a problem with my HD
that meant I had to go in there, presumably some trojan or whatsit had corrupted an
important portion of it, which was fixed once settings were resaved).
Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk
--- On Thu, 18/12/08, Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:
I can think of a million design faults with mine - I'll never buy Dell
again, that's for sure (but I'll get my desktop machine over here at
some point anyway, so won't have to use a laptop so much then, thankfully).
cheers
J.
5:48 p.m.
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008, Andrew Burton wrote:
The only thing I hated was the dreaded 'mouse
drift', caused by the
silly little mouse stick (not sure what it's called) that lerks between
the G,H and B keys.
"clitoris"
But many blue-nosed companies have come up with other names:
"trackpoint"
"track-stick"
"touchstyk"
"isometric joystick"
6:02 p.m.
silly little mouse stick (not sure what it's
called) that lerks between
the G,H and B keys.
Wikipedia lists a few more names:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_stick#Naming_and_brands
19 Dec
19 Dec
9:20 p.m.
Thanks for that.
The recalibration didn't work on my laptop, but that's fine because I prefer a
mouse anyway.
Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk
--- On Thu, 18/12/08, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
Subject: Re: USB Model M
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Date: Thursday, 18 December, 2008, 11:02 PM
silly little mouse stick (not sure what it's
called) that lerks between
the G,H and B keys.
Wikipedia lists a few more names:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_stick#Naming_and_brands
21 Dec
21 Dec
10:21 p.m.
On Thursday 18 December 2008 06:07:26 am Dave McGuire wrote:
On Dec 17, 2008, at 5:57 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote:
You guys are using the wrong laptops. I've written tens (if not
hundreds) of thousands of lines of code on an Apple 17" Aluminum
PowerBook. That keyboard is so good that I went out and found a
desktop keyboard with the same mechanism. Now, I LOVE the venerable
Model M, but I can absolutely fly on one of these Al PowerBook (and
similar) keyboards.
Well, if you have any extra of "the right ones" by all means feel free to
send 'em in my direction...
:-)
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
Re. Model
M itself - it's nice to be typing on one; I've suffered
a laptop keyboard for far too long!
I can't imagine trying to do any significant amount of typing on
one. A bit here and there, yeah, but not much...
15 Dec
15 Dec
7:08 p.m.
On Mon, 15 Dec 2008, Alexandre Souza wrote:
Are they rated for LART use?
Howzbout for use on college administrators? (additiona toxicity issues)
(I wonder why
they were called Model M - anyone know?)
M de "iMdestructible" or M
de "MACHO" :)
This is a very MACHO keyboard :oD
What was the biggest abuse you took with your M? :o)
7:18 p.m.
On Mon, 15 Dec 2008, Alexandre Souza wrote:
Are they rated for LART
use?
Sure, and you can hit them HARD.
(I wonder
why they were called Model M - anyone know?)
M de "iMdestructible" or
M de "MACHO" :)
This is a very MACHO keyboard :oD
What was the biggest abuse you took with your M? :o) Howzbout for use on college administrators? (additiona
toxicity issues)
It can stand anything. The Model "M" is the keyboard of Chuck Norris!!!
:oO
5691
days inactive
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days old
68 comments
23 participants
participants (23)
-
alexandre-listas＠e-secure.com.br -
aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
axelsson＠acc.umu.se -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
brain＠jbrain.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu -
dm561＠torfree.net -
gordonjcp＠gjcp.net -
IanK＠vulcan.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jules.richardson99＠gmail.com -
keithvz＠verizon.net -
martinm＠allwest.net -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
ploopster＠gmail.com -
rescue＠hawkmountain.net -
rtellason＠verizon.net -
silent700＠gmail.com -
spc＠conman.org -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com