On 3/16/22 16:56, Dave McGuire via cctalk wrote: Ok, it hit $1200, we're out of the running. I hope these systems go to a good home, and don't disappear into the black hole of a private collection. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

Perhaps better than taking offense is to work with those who do a good job in this area and help them do so. Yes, some of us saw the warning signs about the LCM years ago. And I know of various musea doing things contrary to the wishes of their donors, sometimes even with the aid and comfort of the courts. But, with care, it's possible for both private collections and musea to do a good job. The "with care" is the key point, and it applies to every collector. paul

I interpreted "disappear into the black hole of a private collection" as meaning "regrettably unavailable for viewing and/or use by anyone but the collector".? This has nothing to do with how well the systems are preserved. And while the particular choice of words may be somewhat inflammatory (although not to me), I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment. --Jay

On 3/17/22 13:56, Ethan O'Toole wrote: This is absolutely fantastic, but it's very much the exception rather than the rule, especially where big iron is concerned, which is the context here. Anything could happen, but I doubt we'll see those two DG Novas at any festivals. In LSSM's case, it's a wholly-occupied 14,000 square foot commercial storefront building that nobody lives in, in a downtown shopping district, as distinguished from the typical private collection in a garage, basement, etc. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

On 3/17/22 14:19, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: The definition of "museum" is something that is bandied about quite a bit in museum circles, believe it or not. There is no universally-accepted definition. But when standing in someone's garage, basement, storage locker, etc, one can usually make a call that nobody would argue with. I would posit that he does not have a museum; he has a collection and a wish. When and if that wish pans out, and I hope it does, then he will have a museum. But not before. It CAN happen. For decades I had a collection and a wish. Now there's a museum that showcases part of that collection, and parts of others' collections, and things of its own. It's not easy to do, but it is possible. Encourage your friend! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 04:22:27PM -0400, Dave McGuire via cctalk wrote: +1. That's a positive way to look at it. mcl

Some museums are government establishments, but they don't necessarily play any better than any other collector. paul

On 3/17/2022 9:20 AM, Dave McGuire via cctalk wrote: Please don't say that.? Now is the time to thicken the skin and persevere. I appreciate your efforts, as do a lot of other people I suspect. Accordingly, I have just made another donation to the LSSM to help further your cause. --Jay

?> Ok, it hit $1200, we're out of the running.? I hope these systems go I think that next time, you should consider to rephrase this in a more considerate way. There are public museums on both sides of the great pond where stuff is stored in the basements for preservation and does not become accessible for years and years, even if one asks for it. And I am not only meaning hardware or software, I also mean documentation (this is based on personal experience). In my point of view, black holes exist in private as well as public museums, regardless of the different reasons for this. Some do a great job in making their collection accessible in public either for real or online via a website, and some don't. It just depends from case to case and generalising here doesn't seem appropriate. Cheers, Pierre

------ Original Message ------ From: "Dave McGuire via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> To: "P Gebhardt" <p.gebhardt at ymail.com>; "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Thursday, 17 Mar, 2022 At 21:37 Subject: Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA As I've said privately today to three people who have emailed me off-list about this, since starting the LSSM project about ten years ago, I've seen many, probably 25, situations in which widows have junked their dead spouse's prized computer hardware. We've all heard of those situations, but as we've been actively looking for hardware, we see it a lot more, and even I was shocked about just how common this actually is. This is a fate that seems to befall most private collections. That, combined with rodent infestations, rust, etc resulting from the typical garage/barn/shed/basement storage that we've seen over and over, has impacted my opinion of private collections. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA These are all valid concerns, especially since some collectors generally have eyes bigger then their belly, wanting more machines than they have the appropriate storage for. I fear i have been just as guilty (though i generally keep anything of value outside of the rat infested shed) However, there are a great many people who do try and keep their collections indoors and on display. Obviously, this is much easier with machines like the 80's micros than it is with 60's and 70's big iron and minicomputers, which is likely the reason (plus larger production volumes) that so many machines of the 80's and beyond survive and are relatively plentiful. It's also rather unfair to defame private collectors. A lot of them (especially the ones that come out of barns, leaky sheds, garages and basements) were the ones who saved the equipment from the scrappers in the first place. Much of this large system equipment survives (maybe in poor condition) purely because of the private collector. I believe that whilst climate controlled museums are ultimately the best place for functional equipment (where knowledge and skills can easily be pooled), the private collector has an important role in the preservation of equipment as well. Cheers, Josh Rice