I believe we're supposed to say 'newly Innovated' bugs... as in "InnoVeeeshin". John A. Now... Windows(tm) "UXB"

I'm a little confused. If this software was developed by NASA to begin with and is unclassified, shouldn't it be in the public domain anyway, having been developed with taxpayer dollars?

Michael Passer wrote: Not necessarily. NASA-developed software does mean it belongs to taxpayers per se, but that doesn't mean that it necessrily is public domain. Some NASA software doesn't even belong in the public domain as it wouldn't be applicable there, due to the prototypical nature of the code. Other code, like utilities and such, do have application to the public domain but there is no contract or task associated with turning the code, developed for and on a NASA project, over to the public. The impetus to make NASA code reusable was so other NASA projects could use existing code. It is THAT work that has made NASA code more easily available to the public domain. Also, NASA satellite data, though much of it is free on web sites and such, actually costs to order it and have it sent to you, etc. I have always found that interesting. I'll have to check out the fee. I suspect that that is part of the task to turn the code over as well as possible distribution cost. Eric

I looked under Spacecraft Navigation... just a lousy sun-tracker... I was kinda hoping for a source listing for the Apollo navigation computer... Anyone find more than the 1 page scan I found ? There is a sourceforge project for it, to recreate and simulate the cpu and dsky, but it's pretty green... regards Heinz From: "Michael Nadeau" <menadeau(a)mediaone.net> http://www.openchannelsoftware.com/NASA_1.html.

Another problem is where to get software. A $5 Apple II found at local thrift shop or newer computer often are found missing the critical software need to boot. Printed DOC's and schematics for repair are gone. With out this that sadly most good old computers just end in the dumpster. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics.

I've frequently found different parts, obviously of the same computer, at different stores of the same thrift chain. That's why I always look askance at computers with a price tag above $10, even when they appear to be complete. The peripherals are often a much better buy at prices above $5. As for Apple][ software, I doubt there's any that you can't get for free. The most expensive Apple software I've bought in the past decade has been a box of diskettes with the OS and a couple of programs, costing $3. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" <jhellige(a)earthlink.net> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 5:25 PM Subject: Re: Price guide for vintage computers

Ernest wrote: Hey this is thrift shop NOT EBAY! Ben. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics.

Since the cat's out of the bag, I should respond to the comments about the vintage computer book I recently completed. First, it is not just a price guide. I call it a field guide that primarily helps you identify a computer and tells you what its key components and options were when new. It does give a value range. This was at the insistence of the publisher. My original proposal was for a 500-600-page vintage microcomputer encyclopedia, like the Catalog of American Cars (actually, I modeled the original proposal on The Complete Encyclopedia of Motorcars by G.N, Georgano and first published in 1968). The publisher thought that it would be a hard sell to the bookstores and distributors. The book would be too expensive for them to take a chance on what would be considered a new genre. For the record, I wrote this book out of an appreciation of computing history and because of the misinformation being distributed about old computers on eBay and elsewhere. I don't buy and sell vintage computers and have no intention of doing so for a living in the future. The book speaks to the enthusiast, not the dealer or speculator. Someone doubted whether a such guide could be successful. I don't expect to sell a lot of copies for now, but this is the type of project that could be sold for years with periodic updates. In the long run, the considerable amount of work that went into it will be rewarded. The book covers microcomputers and portable computers only. It's what I know best. It include more than 700 systems and 350 photos (numbers subject to change). The latest word from my publisher is that is will be available in June next year. I expected publication for late this year, but I was a bit late and their production is backed up. I haven't even had an initial reaction from the editor, so I'm uncomfortable saying any more about the book for now. However, I will reply to a few comments made on the value and wisdom of price guides. --eBay: Using eBay as a price guide works only for common items where you can look at selling prices for, say, 15 Osborne 1's in similar condition and figure an average. It is not good for rare systems where you can't factor out buyer over-exuberance, inaccurate descriptions, deceptive sellers, etc. In fact, there is no good pricing benchmark for most collectible computers where no public record of sales exists. This makes creating a price guide a dicey proposition, and I'm careful to spell out all the dangers of relying too heavily on any guide. And there is no copyright issue with using selling prices from eBay for a pricing guide (I didn't--just one of several data points I used) as long as you don't copy the format in which eBay presents them. The prices are facts, and you can't copyright a fact. --Price guides as evil: If people try to make a living from buying and selling old computers, or purchasing them as an investment, it won't be because of a price guide. From a dealer perspective, price guides work best for frequently bought-and-sold items. In this hobby, that means the C64s, Atari 800s, TRS-80 CoCos, etc.--the perennial low-buck items that dealers can't make any money on. As I said above, there is no data for what people are paying for most vintage computer models, and I expect this to stay the case for the foreseeable future. Dealers and speculators will have to rely on their own observations and gut feelings, as the successful ones tend to do. As for thrift shops, I expect that they will choose to remain ignorant about old computers and I don't see them spending money on price guides. --On dealers and speculators ruining the hobby: You could probably count using the fingers on one hand the number of dealers making a living buying and selling vintage computers exclusively. Old computers are high-overhead in terms of storage, testing, handling, and prepping for sale. It requires a great deal of knowledge and a network of buyers/collectors willing to spend high prices on rare systems. The hobby is too small for more than a few dealers to remain viable. I expect the hobby to grow slowly (price guide or no price guide) for similar reasons. Not everyone has the knowledge or storage capability to fully appreciate vintage computers. I could be wrong, but I don't see the old computer hobby turning into what the old car hobby is today. To me, it's more like the old radio hobby--large but still accessible to the person of average financial means. --On the true value of price guides: Someone mentioned that it was to the collector's advantage if the seller didn't know what a given system was worth. True, but how do you know what that computer is worth? If it's something you're familiar with, then you probably know its value as well as any price guide author, but what if you run across an unfamiliar but interesting system? How do you know then if you're the one taking advantage of someone's ignorance or vice-versa? The buyer is always the final arbiter of value, but a price guide can help keep you from getting burned or clue you in on a great deal. I'll keep everyone on this list posted on the book's progress. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379

Yes, I had hoped for a January/Feb. release date. But, a guide is just a guide. The numbers may or may not change for some items between now and when the book comes out, but the relative values should stay consistent. Again, the book is much more than a price guide and should be well worth its cover price (not set in stone yet, but the publisher wants it to be as affordable as possible). I thought about self-publishing, but decided against it because there is no easy way for someone like me to reach all the potential readers. I would have had to spend too much time and money on promotion, advertising, etc. I hope it was the right decision. You are probably thinking of the Blue Book guides (www.bluebook.com), which are not aimed at the collector/enthusiast market at all. They are, as you described, guides for trade-in value for electronics dealers. --Mike --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 3:41 AM Subject: Re: Price guide for vintage computers (long) in bit would shows, kind

We have a bunch of computer museum people on this list, I am curious if any of their related organizations plan on doing a coffee table picture book of old computers? It would be nice if something REALLY comprehensive was available. Does anyone even have a "list" of all the computers ever made? That might be a pretty good start, an all text web page with every computer and model in a long list, then make it links to more data, etc. etc. Hmmm, I just may know someone.... (they do software for people who sell memory with the selector thing)

This link still seems to be up though: http://members.fortunecity.com/pcmuseum/complist.html Thanks, DaveB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 12:56 PM Subject: Re: Picture books of old computers Festival ---- http://www.vintage.org

On Sat, 3 Nov 2001, Hans B Pufal wrote: I hope you don't continue to pay them... -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss(a)subatomix.com

Hi, Tom. The book covers microcomputers only (loosely defined), starting with systems tried to get as many models from that era and into the beginning of the PC era as possible. After that I was more selective. Only a few systems from the late 1980s and early 1990s are covered. Portable micros from luggables to notebooks are also included. Sorry, the Imlac isn't in the book. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Uban" <uban(a)ubanproductions.com> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 8:41 AM Subject: Re: Price guide for vintage computers (long) when Again, cover affordable no I which available channels self

Frankly, I don't really care at this point. I don't do it to make money. I have never bought a piece because I thought it might be a good long term financial investment. ??? Of course I want better deals. Go figure, eh? I don't want classic computers to be a "market" at all. I would rather think of them as something that is traded, not bought and sold like a commodity. I get the feeling though, that the money IS the important part for you, and maybe that's why this guide is so important to you. I think that an informational guide is a great idea but including prices/values is the part that I question. If I can't take it with me, why would I care? OK, that isn't fair. Yes, I would like my collection to at least retain it's value, in real money but I believe that would happen anyway, with or without a price guide.

Instead of a price guide, how bout a spotting/indentification guide with info on identifying computers and components and options without any pricing info? -Bob bbrown(a)harper.cc.il.us #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace

I remember purchasing a book by Dr. Tom Haddock that was a price guide for Personal Computers. The book came out about 10 years ago. Has there been any discussion about this book on this list? Eric Bryan Pope wrote:

Iggy Drougge wrote: Is that because this is your hobby or are you adverse to markets all together? I wish my house didn't cost me as much as it did either. But on the same token when I go to sell, I'll be happy that an actual market exists all the same. And hopefully I'll be able to sell it for more than I paid for it. Why can't it be both? And what makes you think that collecting INHERENTLY isn't an investment? I mean given the nature of collecting things and others having the same interest, whether you like it or not, it will BECOME a competitive market. At one level its a flea market, but go out and try to buy an Apple I. You will see that it becomes a big-time auction or the like. I am not talking about artificial prices. That's bunk. I am speaking of real values. Check the value of the IMSAIs, Altairs and other systems of that era on eBay over the last year. Several complete, clean and otherwise nice systems have fetched several thousands of dollars. I'd hardly call that a flea market. Now a Commodore 64 is a flea market item, especially if you have to get a power supply from a separate deal. I won't argue that one way or the other. I have seen Vaxes end up in the hands of scrap dealers too. Certainly you would hope that the value of a Vax is more than scrap if for no other reason for it NOT to end up recycled. I sure as heck would! The source from where you got your system appreciated old systems and wanted it to go to a good home. Most businesses/agencies/schools aren't so appreciative. That makes perfect sense. Heck, part of collecting is getting something at really good price just to see it go up in value, and the story in many ways is more interesting than the piece or system itself. When people become dealers of antiques and the like, they claim that they are able to part with items because the memories of ownership and the stories associated with buying and selling them. Most are NOT strictly in it for the money as the money is really not that good. Who is worried? I never claimed otherwise. The true aim of a price guide is not to allow someone to dictate prices. A price guide should literally reflect actually paid prices for items based upon averages and some agree-upon conditional standard. Speaking of "condition'; based upon my experience with collecting coins, sports cards and dabbling with stamps and books, 'condition' cannot be overemphasized. Someone that inherits it one day will be very pleased that you kept it in nice condition. There is an old saying about collectibles, "you can't take it with you." But you act like you can stop it! The turnover rate of computer systems and the number of old ones lying around coupled with demand for them, will INHERENTLY create this market. What I am saying is, "ready or not here its is!' Don't shoot the messenger! As stated I am a collector of other things. I have a pretty nice baeball card and football (American) card and even basketball card collections. Been at it for years. I do a ltlle selling on the side to assist with bigger buys. I also have been collecting US and world coins for most of my adult life. I have attend shows and assisted on many a bourse floors over the past 18 years. What I am saying is that the conversation we are having (have a price guide not have a price guide), has been done may times before. When the Romans collected the Greeks' coins 2000 years ago, I am certain the thought of a price guide upset some and pleased others. Same with baseball cards in the 1970s. You could buy them in yard sales and flea markets then, but not anymnore. Was that good or bad? Really doesn't matter in that price guiides came out and there was nothing anyone could do about it. Stop collecting because of it? Maybe, I'm sure some actually did. You're better off trying to get Ebay and Yahoo to remove the 'vintage' tag on their computer hardware category as that has legitimized the market more than anything else at this point. But good luck succeeding with that! Eric

Iggy Drougge wrote: No, other that they are real, and dealing in reality is better than not dealing in reality. :) You act like you have a choice. Sorry, yes you do. You can boycott it, but not much else. You really DON'T get the time/value of money, do you? If a bank loans someone money for a period of time, why do it if not for a larger return over time? If you think that you can get and should get an interest-free loan, then you don't have any idea about basic economics. Money MUST increase over time or else no one would ever invest, ever. Greed or competition? Fine, then do it. But what makes you think it won't? You may not like it but really can't do much, other than boycott it (or deal with it) about it. The guide should be the average prices paid for actual machines. It reflects actual prices paid. Good, I'm glad it didn't get recycled. Education is important, I agree. But there IS a market. Go to eBay.com and look under 'vintage computers" if you don't believe me. You can say anything you want about your systems and your plans for them. Not necessarily. A true price guide shows dips too. What proof of that do you have? Put it in writing when you sell or get rid of your systems. I'm telling you what I believe will happen based upon experience in dealing with other collectibles markets. Whether you like it or not doesn't change my prediction. I could be wrong, but I doubt if I am. Won't argue with you about collectors, but I'm sure at least one person you know finds your computer collection "strange." Fine, I neither like it nor dislike it, I simply see it for what it is. I'll meet the market where it is and for what it is. The 'reality' thing, remember? But not all the time. I still happen to have quite a nice collection of things that I managed t get before a rich kid got them. :) The nice thing about "things" is that even if classic computers goes the way of US stamps and gets over commeciralized and makes us all sick, there will be something else. Then the author should be challenged and be forced to change to reflect accurate prices. Eric

Iggy Drougge wrote: Liking or disliking reality changes little. I give up? What do you call a self-fulfilling prophecy in English? I agree, but why can't collecting be for both investment and fun (learning and such)? You seem to think I'm 'wrong' to visualize my collection in terms of an investment. Agreed, but I like a little thing called equity as well, especially "sweat equity." Certianly you appreciate hard work, and believe that one deserves rewards for that hard work? Again, you assume that you are the only collector of classic or old computers. Unrealistic. This reminds me of a story about baseball cards. Rookie cards (players' first year) tend to be worth more than other cards from the same player. Anyway, a guy was ticked off that his favorite player's rookie card cost so much. The card was $1200 and all the players other cards were just a few dollars or less. The problem was that this player shared his rookie card with none other than Nolan Ryan, who happens to probably be the best pitcher of his era. The reality of the shared card made a Jerry Koosman (other player) rookie card astronomical in price. Is that fair to someone wanting to collect a Jerry Koosman rookie card? Probably not, but what can be done about it? Really? Sure we can discuss whether we like it or not, but it makes about as much sense as picking what color pants you want to wear tommorrow. It informs people that want to know what other people paid for certain items on average over a certain time frame. Quite statisical and coldly logical. No hype nor any emotion from the guide in and of itself. How would a price guide have made it the same or changed it. Its a damn book and incapable of actually buying and selling. There is nothing in a price guide that makes someone buy or sell. I remember seeing a case where a customer in a coin shop insisted that a coin be sold to him at the value that was in the price guide because that is what the guide said that it was worth. The dealer basically told the guy to go to hell and told him what he could to do with his guide. Eventually, the guy was thrown out of the shop and asked not to return. I thought it was harsh but understand the dealer's point of view and that the guide doesn't make any sale or potential sale a legal binding contract. Somehow you seem to see the price guide as some sinister work of evil. Oh, what's that obvious market value? I need one as a project for Linix, nothing more. I have sold used systems over the years and I can tell you with confidence that Pentium systems that are less than 166MHz are unsellable as are 68K-based Macs. Actually a price guide could and most probably would prevent older systems from ending up in the scrap heap. Also, do you really care if half the 286 systems end up in a scrap heap or not? The price guide is simply a compilation of what has sold on eBay and the like, for how much, and regarding what system. Is THAT so sinister? Because that is where supply and demand meet. On the same token you may actually get less. What then? Tell the buyer that since you paid X for the system you expect X when you sell? Doesn't always work out that way. But the aim of the price guide is not to delude by reflecting what people want, necessarily. The aim of the guide should show what people have paid for items recently on average. They should reflect the ups with the downs, just like the stock market. Stipulate that any benficiary of your systems are to not sell them to just anyone, etc. It is not about like or dislike per se as that really doesn't change things. But since you have this need to share your feelings on the matter, I'll add mine as well. In some repsects I like a price guide and in others I don't. Some people will feel that they the price guide is the gospel truth others will claim it's all bunk. But I would rather have information rather than void. If the information is no better than nothing, then surely a commitment to improvement and regular updates are in order. In short, as much as you hate the idea, I neither like it nor hate it anywhere near where you stand in the dislike category. I am less enthusiastic about it than you are about being negaitve about it, that is for sure. In purely absolute emotional terms, you have be beat by far. Yes and no. Yes is obvious. But the 'no' part is that when the investors bailed, I bought things I wanted cheaply. When gold and silver went way up in the late 70s and early 80s coins were obscenely high. But after the crash in the early to mid-80s I got back in and got quite a few good deals. Don't fret mate, another will come along. Didn't the Rolling Stones have a lyric about that? You don't have to look at or use the giude. It's a choice. Eric

My experience have been that thrift shop prices are typically too high by factors of 2 to 10 on common items and only marginally low on rarer items. It's as likely that thrift shop owners might decide to lower their prices on many items to match the guide. If thrift shops want to raise prices on underpriced items to match the market, that's fine by me. They are certainly entitled to receive what the item is worth. Eric

So would I, because it would be a lot cheaper :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu -- LDA #<TXT:LDY #>TXT:JMP $AB1E:TXT .asc "just another c64 hacker":.byt 0d00 -

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Chuck McManis wrote: And any good price guide will reflect THAT actual selling price. Someone that understands! Thanks Chuck, I could not have stated it more eloquently. Eric P.S. This brings up the concepts of "buyers market" vs. "sellers market". Currently, old compters on the whole, is a buyer's market as there is more supply of systems than there are people (demand) for them.

Tony Duell wrote: And at $200, they'd sit and sit. I have at least 2 of them and would easily part with one or two at $200 a piece. Agreed. More-money-than-brains has been a complaint of mine about people, especially Americans, for years! I have seen then in other markets as well. I just don't get the oppurtunity to deal with them as much as I'd like. Or maybe I'm just to damn honest or not ruthless enough to separate them with their cash. :) That's fine. But would you lambaste someone that did? And simply because you choose not to is it wrong for me to look at it the same way, just because? Everything is fine with what you state as there is no right or wrong way to collect, IMO. The only exception I would take about your statements above is, if in your quest for beat up machines that YOU would beat them up in order to get them to your liking. I assume that is not what you do, but felt the need to mention it. Even though one's system is theirs and they can do anything they want to with them, I personally take exception to intentional damage of items. Again I am not saying that is what you do. I understand. The preverse nature of such items is in other collectibles as well. Fine. But there is the whole gambit, and you are speaking about one end. I honestly like old PCs and Macs for EXACTLY the reason you mention above. The best part of course is that if you do break it then it's easy to replace, and chalk one up for learning. I get both the hacker-mentatlity and the collector-mentality and see where they are at odds with one another. But on the same token, given the way of things that have come from obscurity to everyday mainstay items; computers, and early ones at that, are bound to be collectibles. As you are entitled to. As for me, I'll hack and collect all the same. And I can't imagine a really good hack as adding any less value to a real nice existing collectible. Others (purists) may disagree, in their quest for mint-in-the-box, etc. Reminds me of the guy in the movie "Toy Story II". Eric

Tony Duell wrote: I understand. I never accused you of defacing any items. Got an HP-11 in Texas this summer at a yard sale for a buck, and it works! Hacking is good. I never said that you did. Examples please. In the early days of kit computers some hacks were necessary. With a single trace cut and jumper SWTPC 6800's had doubled the clock speed. The reason for the original slowness was due to memory speed on the 4K RAM boards. When faster RAM came out, the hacks were made. Eric

I would say the risk of some higher prices isn't what I would worry about. A book of prices will save a huge number of each of the 500 items it might cover, my worry is that it dooms everything else that isn't listed.

David Williams skrev: Tabulated ascii files. Not very advanced, no fancy sorting or cataloguing features, but very portable and very managable with a simple text editor. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/64MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata