28 Dec
2006
28 Dec
'06
10:57 p.m.
Generally still OT, but on-topic regarding the maintainability of
modern devices, did anyone perchance read the "A New Spin on White
Goods" article in the December 15, Electronic Design?
My clothes washer and dryer are going on 17 years and work just fine.
I see no reason that I won'd get 20-25 years of service out of them.
But reading about technology in the pipeline makes me wish they'd
last forever.
Motors controlled by DSPs with 10 A/D converters on chip, GUI
displays, talk about inventorying the stuff in your refrigerator
(using RFID tags on the food) really makes me wonder where the heck
repair parts are going to come from when the new appliances are 20
years old.
BTW, when I looked at replacement ovens over the last few days, I
found that just about all of the new ones are loaded with features
that I'll never use, such as "Sabbath Mode" (no kidding).
It looks like a brave new world, folks.
Cheers,
Chuck
29 Dec
29 Dec
2:20 p.m.
Generally still OT, but on-topic regarding the maintainability of
modern devices, did anyone perchance read the "A New Spin on White
Goods" article in the December 15, Electronic Design?
My clothes washer and dryer are going on 17 years and work just fine.
I see no reason that I won'd get 20-25 years of service out of them.
But reading about technology in the pipeline makes me wish they'd
last forever.
I made comments like this a couple of weeks ago and was roasted alive for
them. Oh well....
Motors controlled by DSPs with 10 A/D converters on chip, GUI
displays, talk about inventorying the stuff in your refrigerator
Ouch. Those old cam timers were repairiable. I've never had a cam fail,
the motors are pretty much interchangeable, and switch contacts can be
repaired (either using bits of old relay contacts, or by using the burnt,
but still jsut about working contacts in the time to switch a relay). But
I wouldn't fancy having to repair a board with a single ASIC on it that
contains a programmed microcontroller amongst other stuff.
Te presense of an 'old fashioned' rotating program knob doesn't imply a
fully electromecahanical timer. I've seen at least one washing machine
where there was a motor-drivven cam stack, but the timer motor (and some
otehr bits of the machien) were controller by an ASIC (with feedback
contacts on the cam stack to tell said ASIC where it had got to).
And of course some eyars ago, 'electronic control' was reserved for the
high-end models, you could get a mechancial timer by buying a cheap
machine. Now, of coruse, microcontrolers are a lot cheaper than motors
and cams, so all machines have the electronic control
(the same sort of thing applies to car engines. 20 years ago, a 16 valve
(4 cylinder) twin overhard camshaft, fuel ingjected engine with an
ignition coil for each spark plug (no distributor) would have been
reserved for a high-performance car. My father's new car, a base model
Skoda, has such an engine)
(using RFID tags on the food) really makes me wonder
where the heck
repair parts are going to come from when the new appliances are 20
years old.
You're not. Jsut as you won't find parts for today's computers, LCD and
Plasma TVs (as I understand it, a lot of those are board-swap-only
repairs, no schematisc or components availalbe), and so on.
I'm sticking to the classics.
BTW, when I looked at replacement ovens over the last
few days, I
found that just about all of the new ones are loaded with features
that I'll never use, such as "Sabbath Mode" (no kidding).
What the heck is Sabbath Mode?
-tony
3:20 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
As I said earlier, though, that's probably for emissions reasons more
than price or performance. A modern 2.2 litre 16-valve engine may
produce slightly more power at rather higher revs than the 8-valve
carburettor-fed PSA Douvrin in my CX, but at the expense of losing quite
a lot of torque. I still hate working on carburettors though. Fuel
injection is way simpler.
I'm guessing it's something where you can put food in the night before,
and it will cook and shut itself off the next day. Certain faiths
require that you do no work on the Sabbath, and that includes cooking.
I went to school with people whose mothers would prepare the Sunday meal
late on Saturday night, to be eaten cold after coming home from church.
Some of them wouldn't even use electric light on a Sunday, so in the
winter they'd be sitting in the dark from about 4pm onwards. And people
think Muslims are bad for crazy religious fundamentalism...
Gordon.
Generally
still OT, but on-topic regarding the maintainability of
modern devices, did anyone perchance read the "A New Spin on White
Goods" article in the December 15, Electronic Design?
My clothes washer and dryer are going on 17 years and work just fine.
I see no reason that I won'd get 20-25 years of service out of them.
But reading about technology in the pipeline makes me wish they'd
last forever.
I made comments like this a couple of weeks ago and was roasted alive for
them. Oh well....
Motors controlled by DSPs with 10 A/D converters
on chip, GUI
displays, talk about inventorying the stuff in your refrigerator
Ouch. Those old cam timers were repairiable. I've never had a cam fail,
the motors are pretty much interchangeable, and switch contacts can be
repaired (either using bits of old relay contacts, or by using the burnt,
but still jsut about working contacts in the time to switch a relay). But
I wouldn't fancy having to repair a board with a single ASIC on it that
contains a programmed microcontroller amongst other stuff.
Te presense of an 'old fashioned' rotating program knob doesn't imply a
fully electromecahanical timer. I've seen at least one washing machine
where there was a motor-drivven cam stack, but the timer motor (and some
otehr bits of the machien) were controller by an ASIC (with feedback
contacts on the cam stack to tell said ASIC where it had got to).
And of course some eyars ago, 'electronic control' was reserved for the
high-end models, you could get a mechancial timer by buying a cheap
machine. Now, of coruse, microcontrolers are a lot cheaper than motors
and cams, so all machines have the electronic control
(the same sort of thing applies to car engines. 20 years ago, a 16 valve
(4 cylinder) twin overhard camshaft, fuel ingjected engine with an
ignition coil for each spark plug (no distributor) would have been
reserved for a high-performance car. My father's new car, a base model
Skoda, has such an engine) BTW, when I looked at replacement ovens over the
last few days, I
found that just about all of the new ones are loaded with features
that I'll never use, such as "Sabbath Mode" (no kidding).
What the heck is Sabbath Mode?
3:30 p.m.
On 29 Dec 2006 at 22:20, Tony Duell wrote:
What the heck is Sabbath Mode?
As near as I can figure, it's a way to defeat the automatic-off
feature (about 12 hours) for many modern ovens. Orthodox Jews are
not allowed to power an appliance on during the Sabbath (from sunset
Friday to sunset Saturday), but are allowed to use one already on, so
Sabbath Mode allows them to override the safety and keep the oven at
some preset temperature for 24 hours or more. Yes, I'm wondering why
a timer wouldn't do the same thing without consuming an inordinate
amount of power. Must be a religious nuance.
There, aren't you glad you asked?
Cheers,
Chuck
4:48 p.m.
On 29 Dec 2006 at 22:20, Tony Duell wrote:
I give up!. I thought one of the alleged advantages of modern stuff was
that it saved engery. Not that it wasted ridiculous amounts of it.
What the heck is Sabbath Mode?
As near as I can figure, it's a way to defeat the automatic-off
feature (about 12 hours) for many modern ovens. Orthodox Jews are
not allowed to power an appliance on during the Sabbath (from sunset
Friday to sunset Saturday), but are allowed to use one already on, so
Sabbath Mode allows them to override the safety and keep the oven at
some preset temperature for 24 hours or more. Yes, I'm wondering why
a timer wouldn't do the same thing without consuming an inordinate
amount of power. Must be a religious nuance.
There, aren't you glad you asked?
Actually, I'm even more glad I'm using a cooker with the right number of
ICs controling it. Namely zero.
-tony
30 Dec
30 Dec
3:13 a.m.
On Sat, 2006-12-30 at 00:48 +0000, Tony Duell wrote:
Actually, the PROPER way to do it is to have a communications link
so one can simply hook it up to the home network, and either telnet to
it, or open a Web page on it to control the process. This allows for
various things like a cron job on a Unix machine that fires up a load of
wash when there's plenty of hot water in the solar panels, or when power
Actually,
I'm even more glad I'm using a cooker with the right number of
ICs
controling it. Namely zero. from the grid is cheaper, depending on the individual
configuration.
The machine itself should have only a simple user-programmable
microprocessor with internal RAM and ROM. (ducking)
Peace,
Warren E. Wolfe
wizard at voyager.net
6:42 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 29 Dec 2006 at 22:20, Tony Duell wrote:
Much the same as Free Presbyterians, the Christian equivalent of the
Taliban.
Gordon
What the heck is Sabbath Mode?
As near as I can figure, it's a way to defeat the automatic-off
feature (about 12 hours) for many modern ovens. Orthodox Jews are
not allowed to power an appliance on during the Sabbath (from sunset 
2 Jan
2 Jan
9:26 a.m.
New subject: Kosher stove and fridge
>On 29 Dec 2006 at 22:20, Tony Duell wrote:
>>What the heck is Sabbath Mode?
More than you want to know, from a kosher certification group:
http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-cooking-SM.htm
It says Whirlpool was awarded a patent for this in 1998.
The oven stays on for more than 12 hours, and doesn't change state
when you open the door to use the already-warm oven:
"No lights, digits, solenoids, fans, icons, tones or displays
will be activated/modified in the normal operation of the oven."
And yes, this affects refrigerators, too:
http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-cooling-keepcool.htm
For example, they worry that opening the door turns on
a light, which is prohibited.
Such permutations have been considered for hundreds of years,
even down to whether you can allow a trained monkey, parrot
or elephant to do the work for you.
- John
10:08 a.m.
New subject: Kosher stove and fridge
>> What
the heck is Sabbath Mode?
More than you want to know, from a kosher certification
group:
http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-cooking-SM.htm
[...]
Such permutations have been considered for hundreds of years, even
down to whether you can allow a trained monkey, parrot or elephant to
do the work for you. 
10:15 a.m.
New subject: Kosher stove and fridge
>> What the heck is Sabbath Mode?
More
than you want to know, from a kosher certification group:
http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-cooking-SM.htm
[...]
Such permutations have been considered for hundreds of years, even
down to whether you can allow a trained monkey, parrot or elephant to
do the work for you.
10:53 a.m.
New subject: Kosher stove and fridge
On Tue, 2007-01-02 at 13:08 -0500, der Mouse wrote:
I've heard of shabbat goys, but, parrot??
That's just ridiculous. :-)
Ridiculous? Jew don't want to go DERE, puppy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxGAnK8F_b0
Ay, ay, ay,
Manny Cockatoo
wizard at voyager.net
4:21 p.m.
New subject: Kosher stove and fridge
>> Ridiculous? Jew don't want to go
DERE, puppy..
This thread has been entertaining, albeit OT, but "Jew don't want to go..."
is not funny and I find it a bit offensive.
-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Wolfe [mailto:wizard at voyager.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 1:54 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Kosher stove and fridge
On Tue, 2007-01-02 at 13:08 -0500, der Mouse wrote:
I've heard of shabbat goys, but, parrot??
That's just ridiculous. :-)
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxGAnK8F_b0
Ay, ay, ay,
Manny Cockatoo
wizard at voyager.net
11:31 p.m.
New subject: Kosher stove and fridge
On Tue, 2007-01-02 at 19:21 -0500, Evan Koblentz wrote:
What a waste... too bad it wasn't a troll, as it would have been
successful. I am assuming, here, that you are referring to the word
"Jew," as in a person of the Jewish faith. I'll ignore for the moment
such things as my lifetime membership in Sigma Alpha Mu, etc., which
gives me license to tell any Jewish jokes I wish.
The major issue here is that "Jew don't want to go DERE, puppy" is
my attempt to phoneticize the "Brazilian Fighting Cockatoo's" accent
>>
Ridiculous? Jew don't want to go DERE, puppy..
This thread has been entertaining, albeit OT, but "Jew
don't want to go..." is not funny and I find it a bit
offensive. from the clip I quoted. Personally, I think it is a
fine job. Further,
I find the clip to be hilarious. YMMV. Neither the clip, nor
my use of
it, have anything whatsoever to do with Jews, in either a positive or
negative manner, other than the accidental positioning in a string on
Kosher appliances. Actually, if you weren't overly sensitive on this
subject, as indicated by your false positive, the "DERE" should have
been a strong clue, as should my signature phrase, "Ay, ay, ay," and
signature of Manny Cockatoo, all taken from the clip -- which I assume
you failed to view prior to complaining. To lose the accent, what is
being said is "You don't want to go THERE, puppy," which seems pale and
lackluster compared to the way the cockatoo (and I) put it. Again,
YMMV. Unsolicited advice: lighten up.
Oh, and in case I am once more offering unintended offense,
"cockatoo" has nothing to do with male genitalia, "troll" is a word
from
the fishing vernacular meaning to fish for an over-reaction, as opposed
to an insulting term for little people, and "success" is not a reference
to a sex act. That's all I can think of to pre-explain. Let me know if
I missed any potentially offensive references.
Furthermore, if you are NOT complaining about my use of the word
"Jew," and your perceived insults to either Hebrew or Jewish people, you
will have to clearly state the exact reason for your perceived offense.
I'm not seeing it. Thank you for taking the time to over-react to
nothing. That, and any other humorous input you might have, is greatly
appreciated.
Peace,
Warren E. Wolfe
wizard at voyager.net
3 Jan
3 Jan
11:19 a.m.
New subject: Kosher stove and fridge
My objection isn't to the actual word "Jew" but to your casual use of it to
replace "You" for no good reason.
Yes, political correctness has gone too far, and a little counter-push is
healthy. But that doesn't give everyone a blank check to be an insensitive
jerk. I don't care if you are also Jewish or not -- as the reader I've got
no way of knowing and it still wasn't even funny.
What a waste... too bad it wasn't a troll, as it would have been
successful. I am assuming, here, that you are referring to the word
"Jew," as in a person of the Jewish faith. I'll ignore for the moment
such things as my lifetime membership in Sigma Alpha Mu, etc., which
gives me license to tell any Jewish jokes I wish.
The major issue here is that "Jew don't want to go DERE, puppy" is
my attempt to phoneticize the "Brazilian Fighting Cockatoo's" accent
>> Unsolicited advice: lighten up ... I'm not
seeing it.
You idiot.
-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Wolfe [mailto:wizard at voyager.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 2:31 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: Kosher stove and fridge
On Tue, 2007-01-02 at 19:21 -0500, Evan Koblentz wrote:
>>
Ridiculous? Jew don't want to go DERE, puppy..
This thread has been entertaining, albeit OT, but "Jew don't want to
go..." is not funny and I find it a bit offensive. from the clip I quoted. Personally, I think it is a
fine job. Further,
I find the clip to be hilarious. YMMV. Neither the clip, nor
my use of
it, have anything whatsoever to do with Jews, in either a positive or
negative manner, other than the accidental positioning in a string on
Kosher appliances. Actually, if you weren't overly sensitive on this
subject, as indicated by your false positive, the "DERE" should have
been a strong clue, as should my signature phrase, "Ay, ay, ay," and
signature of Manny Cockatoo, all taken from the clip -- which I assume
you failed to view prior to complaining. To lose the accent, what is
being said is "You don't want to go THERE, puppy," which seems pale and
lackluster compared to the way the cockatoo (and I) put it. Again,
YMMV. Unsolicited advice: lighten up.
Oh, and in case I am once more offering unintended offense,
"cockatoo" has nothing to do with male genitalia, "troll" is a word
from
the fishing vernacular meaning to fish for an over-reaction, as opposed
to an insulting term for little people, and "success" is not a reference
to a sex act. That's all I can think of to pre-explain. Let me know if
I missed any potentially offensive references.
Furthermore, if you are NOT complaining about my use of the word
"Jew," and your perceived insults to either Hebrew or Jewish people, you
will have to clearly state the exact reason for your perceived offense.
I'm not seeing it. Thank you for taking the time to over-react to
nothing. That, and any other humorous input you might have, is greatly
appreciated.
Peace,
Warren E. Wolfe
wizard at voyager.net
11:23 a.m.
New subject: Kosher stove and fridge
My objection isn't to the actual word
"Jew" but to your casual use of
it to replace "You"
How else would you spell that pronunciation distortion of "you"?
for no good reason.
Judgement call. Phonetic respelling to allude to a particular
character's line in a video strikes me as good enough reason; you
apparently differ.
I suppose this makes me an "idiot" too. So be it.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
11:49 a.m.
New subject: Kosher stove and fridge
And thusly were the wise words spake by der Mouse
chew? choo?
The video by itself has nothing to do with kosher appliances, other
then it has a refrigerator. Is the cockatoo supposed to be the
"Sabbath switch"!? The video seems to be here because of how
the bird pronounces "you", which in the context of the past
thread causes it to be offensive...
Cheers,
Bryan
My objection isn't to the actual word
"Jew" but to your casual use of
it to replace "You"
How else would you spell that pronunciation distortion of "you"?
for no good
reason.
Judgement call. Phonetic respelling to allude to a particular
character's line in a video strikes me as good enough reason; you
apparently differ.
12:03 p.m.
New subject: Kosher stove and fridge
On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 14:23 -0500, der Mouse wrote:
Well, M. Mouse, I COULD have used "Joo," as I mentioned previously.
I obviously over-estimated the media savvy of my audience, at least in
SOME cases. My bad. <Grin>
Yep. Time to get out the rope, and find a tree.
My objection
isn't to the actual word "Jew" but to your casual use of
it to replace "You"
How else would you spell that pronunciation distortion of "you"? for no good
reason.
Judgement call. Phonetic respelling to allude to a particular
character's line in a video strikes me as good enough reason; you
apparently differ. I suppose this makes me an "idiot" too. So
be it.
Hey, maybe we could start a club, and build a clubhouse... Nah.
Peace,
Warren E. Wolfe
wizard at voyager.net
3:30 p.m.
New subject: Kosher stove and fridge
der Mouse wrote:
Actually, I've seen it as "joo" and "j00" (with two zeros, the
most
common representation I've seen), both used in the same context as "joo
doan wanna go dere!".
Regardless, there's far too much panty wadding going on here. Move along.
g.
My objection
isn't to the actual word "Jew" but to your casual use of
it to replace "You"
How else would you spell that pronunciation distortion of "you"?
4:10 p.m.
New subject: Kosher stove and fridge
Trying terribly hard to resist a response to this
thread, the origin of which I'm not even aware of (it
probably looked like all the rest of the goofy spam
I've been getting (no I don't have these posts sent to
a different folder, and in fact do not have ANYTHING
any longer sent to different folders, not even the
spam. One great big smorgasbord.)), I forge on...
I used to work with a guy years ago, who in fact was
a supervisor, who in fact was Jewish. In the midst of
some conversation we were having, something I said was
misunderstood, to which I replied "what did you think
I said?". Now, being born and raised in New York (and
YES I do make a point of pronouncing most of *most of*
my R's, and never once in my life have uttered the
syllables comprising the detestable YAWK), I'll type
something, but it comes out of my mouth sometimes ;)
differently. And I've probably been guilty of all 3 of
the following mispronounciations:
"what did yuh think I said?"
"what did juh think I said?"
"what did joo think I said?"
Frankly, I can't remember which I was guilty of on
that particular day, but I guess my friend figured it
was time for a good gafaw, and replied "WHO ARE YOU
CALLING A JEW!". And believe you me, we both laughed
good and hard. I probably got a little red faced to
boot.
Does this have anything to do with the origin of the
thread? Like I said I can't tell you. Seemed as
appropriate as any other way to *hopefully* end it though.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
11:58 a.m.
New subject: Kosher stove and fridge
On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 14:19 -0500, Evan Koblentz wrote:
My objection isn't to the actual word
"Jew" but to your casual use of it to
replace "You" for no good reason.
I'll try again. Have you ever heard a native speaker of Portuguese,
especially the Brazilian variety, say "You" in English? It sounds
EXACTLY like an English speaker saying "Jew." As I mentioned, I
consider this a good reason. And, let me guess... You STILL haven't
watched the clip.
Yes, political correctness has gone too far, and a
little counter-push is
healthy. But that doesn't give everyone a blank check to be an insensitive
jerk. I don't care if you are also Jewish or not -- as the reader I've got
no way of knowing and it still wasn't even funny.
Okay... So, tell me how I get my "blank check" to be an insensitive
jerk. (Hey, YOU mixed the metaphor first...) You are obviously making
good use of yours... and I'd hate to miss out. This is more verbose
than my favorite idiot quote, which was "Use some tact, you fathead."
You need to work on a more concise delivery.
I've noticed that essentially every time someone gripes about some
behavior on the part of others, correctly or incorrectly, they almost
IMMEDIATELY exhibit that behavior on their own. So, why is it you
complain about ME being an insensitive jerk (incorrectly, in this case)
and then, in the very next paragraph you write, exhibit insensitive jerk
behavior?
Would you have felt better if I had written "Joo don't want to go
DERE, puppy?" Is it the sound, or the spelling that has your knickers
in a twist? (And, please do examine your answer for idiocy, as the
potential for public humiliation is significant.)
Peace,
Warren E. Wolfe
wizard at voyager.net
>> Unsolicited advice: lighten up ...
I'm not seeing it.
You idiot. 
12:05 p.m.
New subject: Kosher stove and fridge
FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!
Oops, sorry, thought I was at a gradeschool playground for a second there.
My mistake.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 2:03 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: RE: Kosher stove and fridge
>> please do examine your answer for idiocy
You've already used up the cctalk daily allowance.
1:29 p.m.
New subject: Kosher stove and fridge
Evan Koblentz wrote:
My objection isn't to the actual word
"Jew" but to your casual use of it to
replace "You" for no good reason.
Aw, grow up. I've got to put up with my faith having the piss taken out
of it, what makes the Jews special?
Gordon
4 Jan
4 Jan
6:38 a.m.
New subject: Kosher stove and fridge
I suspect the original post was not intended to reference a religion,
rather, a phonetic illustration.
Kill this thread.
Jay
2 Jan
2 Jan
11:12 a.m.
New subject: Kosher stove and fridge
On 1/2/07, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:
http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-cooking-SM.htm
The oven stays on for more than 12 hours, and doesn't change state
when you open the door to use the already-warm oven:
"No lights, digits, solenoids, fans, icons, tones or displays
will be activated/modified in the normal operation of the oven."
And yes, this affects refrigerators, too:
For example, they worry that opening the door turns on
a light, which is prohibited.
My Wolf and SubZero appliances are certified Star K. The Kosher mode
instructions
took more pages in the manuals than the generic versions.
James
--
www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers
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