2 May
2016
2 May
'16
11:43 a.m.
I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need to run
on modern 64-bit
hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked
small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which
might
be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days.
VB4 was a bridge between 16-bit Windows 3.1 applications and 32-bit
everything later (such as the DOS-based Win-95, -98, and -ME, and all of the
NT-based operating systems, which is everything else through Win-10 64-bit).
As such, the package included both a 16-bit an 32-bit compiler. If your
application was compiled using the 16-bit version, you're pretty much stuck
with XP-32 or earlier (in a VM, if necessary), as it will automatically
spawn a 16-bit virtual environment (ntvdm.exe) to run the 16-bit
applications. Win7 and beyond, and all 64-bit versions, do not support this
feature (I supported a VB3 application for 20 years; Win7 was what finally
broke it for good.)
If it was compiled to 32-bit, then you should be pretty much good to go; you
may run into a few insurmountable problems with some now unsupported OCX's.
Other than those, all of the 32-bit code should run fine on anything
current.
If you have the source, you're also in pretty good shape. VB4 is very easy
to port to VB6; there were almost no backward-incompatible features of the
later Visual Basic classic languages. Find an old copy of VB6 SP6,
re-compile it (perhaps replacing some of the failed OCXs with others that
will work - a common one was DBGrid, which is quite easy to replace with
FlexGrid), and you're golden. I currently support just such an application,
and although the development environment requires a couple of tricks to get
working smoothly, the compiled application works just fine on Win10-64.
Drop me a note off-line if you'd like any additional or more specific help
with this; I have a reasonable amount of experience with just this problem.
Of course, there are always older versions of Wine...
~~
Mark Moulding
2 May
2 May
7:51 p.m.
While I can?t however speak to the vagaries of VB4 specifically, I?m reasonably certain
(having run 16-bit only software on windows 7 and 8) that ll 32-bit versions of windows
continue to support NTVDM/16-bit applications. With windows 8 you have to install the
subsystem (its not installed by default) but it does work.
Robert Johnson
---
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On May 2, 2016, at 11:43 AM, mark at markesystems.com
wrote:
I have a Visual Basic 4 application that I need
to run on modern 64-bit
hardware I can do this in a VM, but I really need this VM to be wicked
small, like under a gig. The smallest XP VM I?ve seen is 600MB (which might
be good) but XP is becoming very hard to source these days.
VB4 was a bridge between 16-bit Windows 3.1 applications and 32-bit everything later
(such as the DOS-based Win-95, -98, and -ME, and all of the NT-based operating systems,
which is everything else through Win-10 64-bit). As such, the package included both a
16-bit an 32-bit compiler. If your application was compiled using the 16-bit version,
you're pretty much stuck with XP-32 or earlier (in a VM, if necessary), as it will
automatically spawn a 16-bit virtual environment (ntvdm.exe) to run the 16-bit
applications. Win7 and beyond, and all 64-bit versions, do not support this feature (I
supported a VB3 application for 20 years; Win7 was what finally broke it for good.)
If it was compiled to 32-bit, then you should be pretty much good to go; you may run into
a few insurmountable problems with some now unsupported OCX's. Other than those, all
of the 32-bit code should run fine on anything current.
If you have the source, you're also in pretty good shape. VB4 is very easy to port
to VB6; there were almost no backward-incompatible features of the later Visual Basic
classic languages. Find an old copy of VB6 SP6, re-compile it (perhaps replacing some of
the failed OCXs with others that will work - a common one was DBGrid, which is quite easy
to replace with FlexGrid), and you're golden. I currently support just such an
application, and although the development environment requires a couple of tricks to get
working smoothly, the compiled application works just fine on Win10-64.
Drop me a note off-line if you'd like any additional or more specific help with this;
I have a reasonable amount of experience with just this problem.
Of course, there are always older versions of Wine...
~~
Mark Moulding
8:24 p.m.
On 05/02/2016 07:51 PM, Robert Johnson wrote:
While I can?t however speak to the vagaries of VB4 specifically, I?m
reasonably certain (having run 16-bit only software on windows 7 and
8) that ll 32-bit versions of windows continue to support
NTVDM/16-bit applications. With windows 8 you have to install the
subsystem (its not installed by default) but it does work.
That's the rub--I believe that Mark said that he was using Win 10
64-bit. The hardware's not there to run 16-bit code natively in 64 bit
mode.
WINE is probably pretty good, or DOSBox, or VirtualBox--something that
can emulate/translate the 16-bit code to something that 64 bit Windows
can run.
--Chuck
3 May
3 May
5:57 a.m.
On 3 May 2016 at 05:24, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
The hardware's not there to run 16-bit code
natively in 64 bit
mode.
I think you mean software?
It is possible to run Windows 7's XP Mode under Windows 8.x -- I've done it.
http://www.howtogeek.com/171395/how-to-get-windows-xp-mode-on-windows-8/
This *might* work on Win10.
I have also successfully run the XP Mode VM using VirtualBox under
Ubuntu; I described how to here:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/04/10/how_to_run_xp_on_new_windows/
However, this requires either a licence key or stripping the
copy-protection out of Windows.
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7:20 a.m.
On Tue, 3 May 2016, Liam Proven wrote:
On 3 May 2016 at 05:24, Chuck Guzis <cclist at
sydex.com> wrote:
The issue is that with 64 bit versions of windows, the 16 bit thunking
layer isn't present. The simplest way to do this is to grab VMWare Player
(free download) and then create a Win98 VM. Google can point to a number
of downloadable, ready-to-run Win98SE VMs.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
The hardware's not there to run 16-bit code
natively in 64 bit
mode.
I think you mean software?
It is possible to run Windows 7's XP Mode under Windows 8.x -- I've done it.
http://www.howtogeek.com/171395/how-to-get-windows-xp-mode-on-windows-8/
This *might* work on Win10.
8:12 a.m.
Hey everyone,
First I want to say thanks to everyone for ideas. I've lobbed the question
of whether anything really needs to be done back at the company in
question. It's possible that we can limp along or we don't need to do
anything.
What generated this particular inquiry is that I am putting together a
Windows Server 2012 Remote Desktop Services server. This server will be in
part a daily driver for some important applications for the company. This
RDS server will also allow us to continue company operations in the event
of a disaster. We have primary on site back ups and replications to a
remote site in which the bare metal backups can be pressed into service as
virtual machines should the need arise such as in the case of a local
disaster, prolonged power or network outage, and more.
Windows Server 2012 is 64-bit only. To my knowledge there is no way to run
16 bit applications aside from virtually. Furthermore I have determined
definitively that this particular application was compiled in 16-bit only.
I searched for the source code yesterday and I was not able to find it.
Granted I haven't been with the firm since the 1990s so I really only have
a bare understanding of where I could possibly go look. This particular
company has a lot of legacy equipment sitting in a high-rise in
Houston, Texas. There are a lot of Compaq machines among many other types
of devices, tapes, drives and more hanging around. It is certainly possible
that anyone of those storage media contains the source code, but I have no
idea whether any of that stuff is even readable or where to start looking.
The credits screen of the software shows an older oil company that, I
believe, no longer exists. However some of the employees of that particular
company are still around and are affiliated with the organization that I am
working with. It's unlikely but possible that somebody remembers this
particular bit of software. It's also unlikely but possible that the
original author is among those people.
If I can find the source code, I will do my best to get it upgraded to at
least Visual Basic 6 so we can run in 32 bit mode. Since I have no idea
where the source code is I really don't have a lot of hope for this.
In all likelihood I will attempt to either build a Windows XP virtual
machine or perhaps a windows 98 virtual machine. This presents a few
administrative challenges but it may be possible.
But at the moment the question may be moot. The company may come back and
say forget it. I sort of hope they do.
I respectfully request that if there are any follow-ups to this particular
message that they be sent to me privately. As I said in the original post I
think that this skirts the boundaries of off-topic. I now believe that the
topic is off-topic. I don't think this list needs to be cluttered up
further with anymore of this discussion.
Thank you all again for some really great ideas and tips.
Cheers,
Mike Whalen
8:24 a.m.
Mike,
Have you tried running virtual 2000 professional, running a Win 3.1 16-bit
emulator ("or some form of Win 3.1 emulator within a virtual machine
bridge")?
9:37 a.m.
Bill,
Is ?Virtual 2000 Professional? a product? Or is that Virtual PC with a VM
of Windows 2000 Professional running?
9:54 a.m.
May be a crazy idea but worth a try.
First set up Win 2000 professional and find a Win 3.1 emulator that works
within it. Once that's solid and running on Win 2000 box transplant the
physical Win 2000 server to virtual. There are Win 2000 containers in
VMWare and VCloud Director type utilities that can be used, or you can do
it at the command prompt. I used this technique to set up an XP box into a
cloud server that was running VMWare where you were allowed to spin up
boxes.
On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Mike Whalen <mikew at thecomputervalet.com>
wrote:
Bill,
Is ?Virtual 2000 Professional? a product? Or is that Virtual PC with a VM
of Windows 2000 Professional running?
--
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>
10:04 a.m.
Wouldn't it be easier to run the code on a machine from the relevant time
period?
XP32 laptops are fairly readily available, and don't take much storage
space.
10:13 a.m.
You don't need a Win3.1 emulator for Windows/2000 or Windows/XP, they are 32-bit only
OS's and will run 3.1 programs out of the box.
Dave
G4UGM
(Notes there are a couple of offerings called XP 64-bit but they are actually modified
versions of Server 2003 which is a different code base to XP).
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william
degnan
Sent: 03 May 2016 17:54
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware?
May be a crazy idea but worth a try.
First set up Win 2000 professional and find a Win 3.1 emulator that works
within it. Once that's solid and running on Win 2000 box transplant the physical
Win 2000 server to virtual. There are Win 2000 containers in VMWare and
VCloud Director type utilities that can be used, or you can do it at the command
prompt. I used this technique to set up an XP box into a cloud server that was
running VMWare where you were allowed to spin up boxes.
On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Mike Whalen
<mikew at thecomputervalet.com>
wrote:
Bill,
Is ?Virtual 2000 Professional? a product? Or is that Virtual PC with a
VM of Windows 2000 Professional running?
--
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>
10:16 a.m.
Something I didn?t say explicitly that has caused some confusion is the
following:
We are an ESX 5.5 environment. None of our servers are physical, save for
the ESX server. Also, when I said ?bare-metal? earlier, what I really meant
was that the remote site runs ESX and will bring up our VMs. The specific
software/tech we?re using for backups is Dell AppAssure with replication
and virtual machine exports.
So, when I say that I may need to spool up a VM to run this software, I
really mean another VM inside ESX.
Or I may put Virtual Box w/ XP or Windows 98 on the 2012 VM. Or something
similar. Ultimately it?s going to depend on how much they need this
program. It may be simpler and neater for them to transfer the data to
something else.
I forget who it was, but someone suggested hex editing the executable. I
don?t know about doing that exactly, but I did finally resolve a question
that has been lingering in my mind for quite some time?
The location of the databases the program accesses is hard-coded in the
executable. Wheee! :-)
10:41 a.m.
ESX 5 is good. I have migrated 32-bit XP to a ESX 5. The reason I was
suggesting 2000 professional because it's more likely you'll find a good
Win 3.1 emulator that is native there, once you have a physical box working
you can snapshot the physical box into a virtual image. Maybe it will work
on XP, if so, even easier.
4 May
4 May
5:10 a.m.
On 3 May 2016 at 19:16, Mike Whalen <mikew at thecomputervalet.com> wrote:
Something I didn?t say explicitly that has caused some
confusion is the
following:
We are an ESX 5.5 environment. None of our servers are physical, save for
the ESX server. Also, when I said ?bare-metal? earlier, what I really meant
was that the remote site runs ESX and will bring up our VMs.
Aww jeez. So when you said "bare metal" you actually meant "NOT bare
metal"?
So, when I say that I may need to spool up a VM to run
this software, I
really mean another VM inside ESX.
A separate VM on the host machine with XP and the app should be
entirely doable. I strongly suggest enabling the ePosReady 2009
security tweak, though:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/05/26/german_tinkerer_gets_around_xpocaly…
Getting an XPMode VM into it will be tricky, though. A reinstall might
be necessary.
Or I may put Virtual Box w/ XP or Windows 98 on the
2012 VM.
That would be significantly inefficient and I would not recommend it myself.
--
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Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
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6:32 a.m.
I?m going to get a demonstration of this program in the next day or so. It
_sounds_ like it?s just a program they use to remind two individuals what
taxes are due for the various organizations the work for. If it?s really
just a calendar, I am going to suggest moving that data into a new Exchange
calendar that is available to anyone that needs it. That way, they?ll get
reminders, they can schedule and unschedule things and we can boot this
legacy application out the door.
5:02 a.m.
On 3 May 2016 at 16:20, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
The issue is that with 64 bit versions of windows, the
16 bit thunking layer
isn't present. The simplest way to do this is to grab VMWare Player (free
download) and then create a Win98 VM. Google can point to a number of
downloadable, ready-to-run Win98SE VMs.
VMware Player is freeware, not FOSS, and there might be licensing issues.
VirtualBox is FOSS apart from the extensions pack. That is one reason
that I recommended it.
Secondly, I have experimentally tried Windows 3, 95, 98, ME, NT 3, NT
4, W2K, XP, Vista, 7, 8 & 10 under VirtualBox. Including concurrently.
I recommended XP for multiple reasons:
[a] It is the oldest and earliest version of Windows for which
VirtualBox Guest Additions are available. This allows host/guest
integration, file sharing, a shared clipboard, seamless mode, etc.
Otherwise it is very difficult to get data in or out of the VM.
[b] Using the ePosReady 2009 registry hack, security patches are still
available, and it will run recent browsers.
[c] Using the XP Mode VM, which is freely downloadable from MS, you do
not need to install and customise it.
--
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6:32 a.m.
On Wed, 4 May 2016, Liam Proven wrote:
On 3 May 2016 at 16:20, geneb <geneb at
deltasoft.com> wrote:
Irrelevant. (EULAs have the same value as toilet paper and shoul be used
for the same purpose.)
The issue is that with 64 bit versions of
windows, the 16 bit thunking layer
isn't present. The simplest way to do this is to grab VMWare Player (free
download) and then create a Win98 VM. Google can point to a number of
downloadable, ready-to-run Win98SE VMs.
VMware Player is freeware, not FOSS, and there might be licensing issues.
[c] Using the XP Mode VM, which is freely downloadable
from MS, you do
not need to install and customise it.
64 bit host OS = 64 Bit XP Mode VM. (AFAIK)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
6:35 a.m.
On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 8:32 AM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
I?m not sure offhand what the default is, but I have gotten around this
problem running XP Mode on a Windows 7 x64 installation. So that XP Mode is
definitely 32-bit.
Cheers,
m
64 bit host OS = 64 Bit XP Mode VM. (AFAIK)
6:38 a.m.
On 4 May 2016 at 15:32, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
No, not really. Sadly.
Anyway, it's irrelevant, as the OP has now clarified that he is
running in a VMware ESX environment, so that would be the host.
What? No, not even slightly true in any case whatsoever.
XP Mode is a pre-installed VM image of XP Pro 32-bit, registered and
activated against the virtual hardware of MS Virtual PC 2007.
Since its entire purpose is to run XP apps which will not work on Win7
in a VM under Win7, it would be pointless if it was not the
maximally-compatible standard 32-bit XP.
--
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Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
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VMware Player
is freeware, not FOSS, and there might be licensing issues.
Irrelevant. (EULAs have the same value as toilet paper and shoul be used
for the same purpose.) [c] Using the
XP Mode VM, which is freely downloadable from MS, you do
not need to install and customise it.
64 bit host OS = 64 Bit XP Mode VM. (AFAIK)
3 May
3 May
7:55 a.m.
On 05/03/2016 05:57 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
On 3 May 2016 at 05:24, Chuck Guzis <cclist at
sydex.com> wrote:
I'll retrench and restate that in terms of "it depends". If your CPU
doesn't support Hardware Virtualization Mode, you're out of luck:
http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/5460/our-look-at-xp-mode-in-windows-7/
You'll note that I did suggest VirtualBox with my initial post. I've
run a variety of "antique" systems under it (under Linux), including
Microsoft Unix (the SysVR4 variant). That it works has saved me a lot
of trouble over the years.
I don't know how long we'll have any sort of native capability to run
16-bit code without emulation, however.
Of course, anything can be run (more slowly) under emulation or
on-the-fly conversion.
You'll perhaps recall when, a couple of years ago, the Debian kernel
release disabled 16-bit segment descriptors, citing it as a security
issue, causing a minor kerfuffle. Linus quickly admitted that it was a
mistake--so score one for the oldsters.
--Chuck
The hardware's not there to run 16-bit code
natively in 64 bit
mode.
I think you mean software?
It is possible to run Windows 7's XP Mode under Windows 8.x -- I've
done it.
4 May
4 May
5:05 a.m.
On 3 May 2016 at 16:55, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
I'll retrench and restate that in terms of
"it depends". If your CPU
doesn't support Hardware Virtualization Mode, you're out of luck:
http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/5460/our-look-at-xp-mode-in-windows-7/
16-bit support and hardware virtualisation extensions are 2 totally
separate and orthogonal issues.
Secondly, desktop hypervisors such as VirtualBox and VMware can do
software trapping of Ring 0 instructions on systems lacking hardware
virtualisation extensions, so they will still work and the method I
suggest will still function. I'd expect that performance would drop
15% or so, though.
I suspect that 16-bit code compatibility will remain in x86-64 until
the end of its days, but I could be wrong...
--
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3 May
3 May
5:54 a.m.
On 2 May 2016 at 20:43, <mark at markesystems.com> wrote:
If you have the source, you're also in pretty good
shape.
The OP has specifically stated that he does not have the source, and
that the company which wrote the app no longer exists.
--
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days inactive
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21 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
aloha＠blastpuppy.com -
billdegnan＠gmail.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
lproven＠gmail.com -
mark＠markesystems.com -
mikew＠thecomputervalet.com