23 Aug
2002
23 Aug
'02
6:24 p.m.
Well, I finally had some success with these old computers I've been trying
to get working.
The Atari problem ended up being with the power supply. Its plug did not
properly fit the power receptacle on the computer. Once I got the proper
power supply it worked like a champ. More like I remember the last time I
played with an Atari 800 a few years ago. Then, I was amazed at how easy
it was to get up and running with a disk-based Atari 800. Everything is
total plug and play (but for real). I now like the Atari 800 :)
The TRS-80 M3 was a LOT of work but I finally got it running. It turns
out the problem with most of the units I tested most likely was a bad
keyboard or just my ignorance in not knowing how to boot it into BASIC ;)
I finally found one that had a decent keyboard and would boot to BASIC if
I held down the BREAK key upon boot-up or after a reset. I wanted to
make one nice machine out of two that I had. I moved the good keyboard
to the nicer one. The nicer one didn't have the serial port board, so I
moved it from the yucky one to the nice one. No wonder RS wanted you to
bring the machine in to the service center to get it upgraded. This is
NOT an easy computer to work on. I had to unscrew everything to remove
the motherboard to both take out the card on the one and install it on the
other. Also, there is a power cable that is added for the serial port
option when it's upgraded, so I had to cut the zip ties holding the cable
in place on the old one to move it to the new one. What a shit design.
The stuck brightness and contrast knobs were fixed with a healthy helping
of Deoxit, which is this deoxidizing agent. I worked the knobs back
and forth and they loosened up nicely. Now everything works great. I
now like the TRS-80 Model III :)
The Commodore 64 I have is just plum dead. Or at least it seems to be.
The video cable I am using has four connectors on it: red, yellow, white
and black. The 1702 monitor has three jacks on the back: chroma, luma and
audio. I tried all different combinations trying to get video on the
display but no die. What's the deal with that? I think I'm using the
wrong video cable, but all the C64 stashes I check turn up this
4-connector cable. I forgot to bring home the spare C64's I was going to
have as stand-by's so I don't currently have another C64 to compare with.
I know I have a three-connector cable that I'm sure goes to the C64 but I
cannot find one for the life of me. Grrr. I still hate the C64.
The Radio Shack Color Computer 2 is confusing. And somewhat lame. I have
to go find the disk controller carthridge to attach disk drives to it.
Then I have to find the proper disk drives. Fine. But I can't figure out
the video. I want to connect it to an Amdek color monitor. The only
video jack is the RCA type on the back that seems to be a built in RF
modulator. So needless to say I don't get video on the display. I can't
find any mention on the web of adding an external monitor to the CoCo.
The CoCo2 is lame. I do not like the CoCo2.
Any idea on how to hook the CoCo2 to a composite monitor?
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
24 Aug
24 Aug
3:05 a.m.
Yes,
A CoCo can be attached to any monitor, using a nail gun.
Sellam Ismail wrote:
Well, I finally had some success with these old
computers I've been trying
to get working.
The Atari problem ended up being with the power supply. Its plug did not
properly fit the power receptacle on the computer. Once I got the proper
power supply it worked like a champ. More like I remember the last time I
played with an Atari 800 a few years ago. Then, I was amazed at how easy
it was to get up and running with a disk-based Atari 800. Everything is
total plug and play (but for real). I now like the Atari 800 :)
The TRS-80 M3 was a LOT of work but I finally got it running. It turns
out the problem with most of the units I tested most likely was a bad
keyboard or just my ignorance in not knowing how to boot it into BASIC ;)
I finally found one that had a decent keyboard and would boot to BASIC if
I held down the BREAK key upon boot-up or after a reset. I wanted to
make one nice machine out of two that I had. I moved the good keyboard
to the nicer one. The nicer one didn't have the serial port board, so I
moved it from the yucky one to the nice one. No wonder RS wanted you to
bring the machine in to the service center to get it upgraded. This is
NOT an easy computer to work on. I had to unscrew everything to remove
the motherboard to both take out the card on the one and install it on the
other. Also, there is a power cable that is added for the serial port
option when it's upgraded, so I had to cut the zip ties holding the cable
in place on the old one to move it to the new one. What a shit design.
The stuck brightness and contrast knobs were fixed with a healthy helping
of Deoxit, which is this deoxidizing agent. I worked the knobs back
and forth and they loosened up nicely. Now everything works great. I
now like the TRS-80 Model III :)
The Commodore 64 I have is just plum dead. Or at least it seems to be.
The video cable I am using has four connectors on it: red, yellow, white
and black. The 1702 monitor has three jacks on the back: chroma, luma and
audio. I tried all different combinations trying to get video on the
display but no die. What's the deal with that? I think I'm using the
wrong video cable, but all the C64 stashes I check turn up this
4-connector cable. I forgot to bring home the spare C64's I was going to
have as stand-by's so I don't currently have another C64 to compare with.
I know I have a three-connector cable that I'm sure goes to the C64 but I
cannot find one for the life of me. Grrr. I still hate the C64.
The Radio Shack Color Computer 2 is confusing. And somewhat lame. I have
to go find the disk controller carthridge to attach disk drives to it.
Then I have to find the proper disk drives. Fine. But I can't figure out
the video. I want to connect it to an Amdek color monitor. The only
video jack is the RCA type on the back that seems to be a built in RF
modulator. So needless to say I don't get video on the display. I can't
find any mention on the web of adding an external monitor to the CoCo.
The CoCo2 is lame. I do not like the CoCo2.
Any idea on how to hook the CoCo2 to a composite monitor?
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
5:56 a.m.
Sellam Ismail wrote:
The drives are not much of a problem. TM100-1 with a power supply (-2, or
"360K" will work) Radio Shack did the drive select in the cable. So you
can either make your own cable and do "normal" drive select, or use the RS
cable and jumper all of the drive select positions on.
For running OS-9 (Microware, NOT APPLE!), I'd recommend change the cable
and use DS drives.
The TRS-80 M3 was a LOT of work but I finally got
it running. It turns
out the problem with most of the units I tested most likely was a bad
keyboard or just my ignorance in not knowing how to boot it into BASIC ;)
. . .
>The Radio Shack Color Computer 2 is confusing. And somewhat lame. I have
>to go find the disk controller carthridge to attach disk drives to it.
>Then I have to find the proper disk drives. Fine. But I can't figure out
>the video. I want to connect it to an Amdek color monitor. The only
>video jack is the RCA type on the back that seems to be a built in RF
>modulator. So needless to say I don't get video on the display. I can't
>find any mention on the web of adding an external monitor to the CoCo.
>The CoCo2 is lame. I do not like the CoCo2.
>Any idea on how to hook the CoCo2 to a composite monitor?
clip leads.
for more permanent usage, wire in an RCA jack.
Tony can probably remember the exact connection points, or contact
Marty Goodman <martygoodman(a)worldnet.att.net>
On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, Bob Shannon wrote:
Yes,
A CoCo can be attached to any monitor, using a nail gun.
Some monitors are so flimsy that they can be damaged if you put a nail
through the CRT. For more temporary attachment, duct tape.
26 Aug
26 Aug
5:36 a.m.
In referring to the "360k" do you mean the model (RS 25-1060) that shipped
IIRC for the 1000HX ( ?) ? I just checked my COCO M.502 drive and the edge
connector is slightly different. It would be nice to have a useable 2nd drive
for my CoCos.
Lawrence
lgwalker(a)mts.net
bigwalk_ca(a)yahoo.com
>The Radio
Shack Color Computer 2 is confusing. And somewhat lame. I have to
>go find the disk controller carthridge to attach disk drives to it. Then I
>have to find the proper disk drives. Fine.
The drives are not much of a problem. TM100-1 with a power supply (-2, or
"360K" will work) Radio Shack did the drive select in the cable. So you
can either make your own cable and do "normal" drive select, or use the RS
cable and jumper all of the drive select positions on.
For running OS-9 (Microware, NOT APPLE!), I'd recommend change the cable
and use DS drives.
6:01 a.m.
Rumor has it that Lawrence Walker may have mentioned these words:
In referring to the "360k" do you mean the
model (RS 25-1060) that shipped
IIRC for the 1000HX ( ?) ? I just checked my COCO M.502 drive and the edge
connector is slightly different. It would be nice to have a useable 2nd drive
for my CoCos.
Larry,
The case itself is not compatible with the CoCos, as the ribbon cable has
extra connectors for powering the drive... If you take the drive out of the
case, it'll be the standard connectors (except maybe power - just hack in a
standard "big plug" if necessary) and you can use the drive no problem with
your CoCos.
With OS-9, you'll just need to sysgen a new boot floppy with the 360K DSDD
60Hz /d1 driver; with RS-DOS you'll need to patch the ROMs, then reburn if
you want the changes permenant. Beware: The RS-DOS ROMS assume that both
drives are the same size, so only do the mods if you have 2 360K drives!
HTH,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
zmerch(a)30below.com
What do you do when Life gives you lemons,
and you don't *like* lemonade?????????????
9:46 p.m.
Bingo ! I took both cases off and at first was dismayed since the "360k" has
a 30 pin edge connector and takes it's power from the host machine. Then I
saw that the TEAC drive had a 34 pin edge connector that was plugged into
the card with the 30 pin edge-c and a standard 5 1/4 floppy power plug.
The 502 has a dummy faceplate for a second floppy and 2 data 34pin
connectors and 2 standard 3 1/2 floppy plug types as you say and a
whopping big PSU that must support 2 drives. There's one single square 2pin
plug which doesn't have any visible connector on either drive.
The only mod needed would be to replace the small power with a large type.
That's great. When you don't have a HD, 2 floppies sure makes things
easier. I recall with no pleasure spending hours doing the disk-change
mambo copying programs off magazine disks on my Atari ST.
Lawrence
Rumor has it that Lawrence Walker may have mentioned
these words:
lgwalker(a)mts.net
bigwalk_ca(a)yahoo.com
In referring to the "360k" do you mean
the model (RS 25-1060) that shipped
IIRC for the 1000HX ( ?) ? I just checked my COCO M.502 drive and the edge
connector is slightly different. It would be nice to have a useable 2nd drive
for my CoCos.
Larry,
The case itself is not compatible with the CoCos, as the ribbon cable has
extra connectors for powering the drive... If you take the drive out of the
case, it'll be the standard connectors (except maybe power - just hack in a
standard "big plug" if necessary) and you can use the drive no problem with
your
CoCos.
With OS-9, you'll just need to sysgen a new boot floppy with the 360K DSDD 60Hz
/d1 driver; with RS-DOS you'll need to patch the ROMs, then reburn if you want
the changes permenant. Beware: The RS-DOS ROMS assume that both drives are the
same size, so only do the mods if you have 2 360K drives!
HTH,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
zmerch(a)30below.com
What do you do when Life gives you lemons,
and you don't *like* lemonade?????????????
27 Aug
27 Aug
6:44 a.m.
Rumor has it that Lawrence Walker may have mentioned these words:
[snip]
The 502 has a dummy faceplate for a second floppy and
2 data 34pin
connectors and 2 standard 3 1/2 floppy plug types as you say and a
whopping big PSU that must support 2 drives. There's one single square 2pin
plug which doesn't have any visible connector on either drive.
The only mod needed would be to replace the small power with a large type.
The PSU does support 2 drives, but when it does so, it gets a little
warm... that's what the 2-pin plug is for - Fan power. If you're using
newer drives that take less power (especially if it's 3.5" and you have
more room for convective cooling) it's not necessary (or at least *as*
necessary, if you power the machine for a short amount of time) but if you
plan on using that older TEAC, you'll want to fit in a compatible-sized
fan. The fan was included in the CoCo "Drive 1" kits...
Dunno if a standard PC case fan is the right size - my FD502 is still
packed away for now... (sniff) but if that's too big, a larger pentium-like
CPU fan should be just the ticket. If it's not *ezactly* the right size,
I'm sure suitable boltholes could be fashioned... ;-)
That's great. When you don't have a HD, 2
floppies sure makes things
easier. I recall with no pleasure spending hours doing the disk-change
mambo copying programs off magazine disks on my Atari ST.
Yea, when I upgraded my CoCo3 to 512K, it wasn't so bad 'cause I fashioned
a 200K RAMdisk; which made copying stuff a wee bit easier; but the original
IBM PCs were tough, they'd only copy 3-4 tracks each spin... :-(
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
zmerch(a)30below.com
What do you do when Life gives you lemons,
and you don't *like* lemonade?????????????
8:35 a.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
Do you mean that I could use a 3 1/2" floppy in the 502, with suitable data
connector of course ? That would be even cooler than a 2nd 5 1/4 !!
That would enable me to get into "serious" OS9 stuff. Woo-haa !!
I just ran up and checked an old data cable for floppies. It does fit the 502.
I'm surmising that the TEAC (FD-55BV-75-U) was a standard issue floppy
that R-S used so any 34pin 3 1/2 connector could be used to replace the
2nd edge connector on the 502. That would also imply that I could use 2
3 1/2" floppies in there if wanted. Or am I simply running away with myself.
Would the cartridge interface accept 3 1/2" drives ?
I have to get into some major research on the CoCo. I have some of the
important issues of "Rainbow" (eg Jan 84 Beginners Issue) and almost
complete sets of Micro 80 and US 80.
Lawrence
Rumor has it that Lawrence Walker may have mentioned
these words:
[snip]
lgwalker(a)mts.net
bigwalk_ca(a)yahoo.com
The 502 has a dummy faceplate for a second
floppy and 2 data 34pin
connectors and 2 standard 3 1/2 floppy plug types as you say and a
whopping big PSU that must support 2 drives. There's one single square 2pin
plug which doesn't have any visible connector on either drive.
The only mod needed would be to replace the small power with a large type.
The PSU does support 2 drives, but when it does so, it gets a little
warm... that's what the 2-pin plug is for - Fan power. If you're using
newer drives that take less power (especially if it's 3.5" and you have
more room for convective cooling) it's not necessary (or at least *as*
necessary, if you power the machine for a short amount of time) but if you plan
on using that older TEAC, you'll want to fit in a compatible-sized fan. The fan
was included in the CoCo "Drive 1" kits...
Dunno if a standard PC case fan is the right size - my FD502 is still
packed away for now... (sniff) but if that's too big, a larger pentium-like CPU
fan should be just the ticket. If it's not *ezactly* the right size, I'm sure
suitable boltholes could be fashioned... ;-)
That's great. When you don't have a HD,
2 floppies sure makes things
easier. I recall with no pleasure spending hours doing the disk-change
mambo copying programs off magazine disks on my Atari ST.
Yea, when I upgraded my CoCo3 to 512K, it wasn't so bad 'cause I fashioned a
200K RAMdisk; which made copying stuff a wee bit easier; but the original IBM
PCs were tough, they'd only copy 3-4 tracks each spin... :-(
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
zmerch(a)30below.com
What do you do when Life gives you lemons,
and you don't *like* lemonade?????????????
9:46 a.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
Rumor has it that Lawrence Walker may have mentioned these words:
Do you mean that I could use a 3 1/2" floppy in
the 502, with suitable data
connector of course ? That would be even cooler than a 2nd 5 1/4 !!
That would enable me to get into "serious" OS9 stuff. Woo-haa !!
Yes, provided you don't try to interface in a HD drive (1.44Meg formatted)
and expect it to work... in a pinch, it'll work IFF you use 720Meg floppies
that don't have the HD hole punched in them and the floppy honors that
switch (some don't and always assume 1.44 Meg) - the datarate is 2x on the
HD floppies compared to the DD floppies.
FHL had the "eliminator" which gave the CoCo a HD compatible interface;
[obviously] it wasn't RS-DOS compatible and was only useful under OS-9;
otherwise there was a hack for the original WD1771-based 12-Volt eating
controllers that would double the datarate, but this was fairly involved
IIRC; never had one of the oldies, so I can't really say for sure...
I just ran up and checked an old data cable for
floppies. It does fit
the 502.
I'm surmising that the TEAC (FD-55BV-75-U) was a standard issue floppy
that R-S used so any 34pin 3 1/2 connector could be used to replace the
2nd edge connector on the 502. That would also imply that I could use 2 3
1/2" floppies in there if wanted. Or am I simply running away with
myself. Would the cartridge interface accept 3 1/2" drives ?
Sure - they're electrically equivalent, and work fine (I had a DSDD 40track
5.25" drive and 2 DSDD 80track 3.5" floppies hooked up to my CoCo at one
point in time). - just remember to use the correct drivers under OS-9 when
you sysgen a new bootable floppy...
[[Sellam doesn't know what kinda fun he's missing, thinking the CoCos are
"crap"...]] BTW, Sellam, if you want a CoCo to mess with that has just
about any kinda video you want, just get a CoCo3. It does TV/RF; Composite
& analog RGB which can be hooked up to the CM-8 from RS, or any Atari
ST/Amiga monitor (with the right cable, mind you) that can sync down to
NTSC levels (which are most all the earlier ones...)
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
zmerch(a)30below.com
What do you do when Life gives you lemons,
and you don't *like* lemonade?????????????
4:35 p.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Roger Merchberger wrote:
[[Sellam doesn't know what kinda fun he's
missing, thinking the CoCos are
"crap"...]]
No, that was the Commodore 64 until it proves otherwise. The CoCo2 is
still up in the air, though I am leaning towards "crap" because of the
limited video output capability ;)
BTW, Sellam, if you want a CoCo to mess with that has
just about any
kinda video you want, just get a CoCo3. It does TV/RF; Composite &
analog RGB which can be hooked up to the CM-8 from RS, or any Atari
ST/Amiga monitor (with the right cable, mind you) that can sync down to
NTSC levels (which are most all the earlier ones...)
I give very high marks to the CoCo3, but I am putting together the CoCo2
and the other systems for a friend of mine who needs them for a book
project.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
28 Aug
28 Aug
11:13 a.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
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11:23 a.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
No, it's crap before that, because it won't run Windows 95.
Doc
No, that was the Commodore 64 until it proves otherwise. The CoCo2 is
still up in the air, though I am leaning towards "crap" because of the
limited video output capability ;)
Presumably by this criterion the Cray is totally 'crap' because it has no
video output at all? 
10:56 p.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
On Wed, Aug 28, 2002 at 06:22:47PM -0500, Doc Shipley wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
No, it's crap before that, because it won't run Windows 95.
<cool knowitall dude>
And what is even worse, it doesn't run $SHOOTER_GAME_WITH_COOL_3D_GRAPHICS,
therefore it is totally useless. Aren't computers, like, made for gaming
or something?
Using computers for real computing or even - heaven forbid - to get work
done is just soooo backwards and oldfashioned and, like, soooo totally
uncool.
</cool knowitall dude>
SCNR,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
No, that was the Commodore 64 until it proves otherwise. The CoCo2 is
still up in the air, though I am leaning towards "crap" because of the
limited video output capability ;)
Presumably by this criterion the Cray is totally 'crap' because it has no
video output at all?
3:33 p.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
Yeah, sure.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
No, that was
the Commodore 64 until it proves otherwise. The CoCo2 is
still up in the air, though I am leaning towards "crap" because of the
limited video output capability ;)
Presumably by this criterion the Cray is totally 'crap' because it has no
video output at all?
5:43 p.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
Check out www.cloud9.com and the numerous OS9 sites. You'll be amazed
as I was.
Lawrence
A closed mind prepares it's own demise. Lao Chi Ching
On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
Yeah, sure.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
lgwalker(a)mts.net
bigwalk_ca(a)yahoo.com
No, that
was the Commodore 64 until it proves otherwise. The CoCo2 is
still up in the air, though I am leaning towards "crap" because of the
limited video output capability ;)
Presumably by this criterion the Cray is totally 'crap' because it has no
video output at all?
10:18 a.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
Rumor has it that Lawrence Walker may have mentioned
these words:
I'm fortunate in that I laid in a good stock of "on sale" floppies
since my STs
and Amigas require them. I also have a bunch of 3 1/2" floppy drives. Other
than installing and testing them is there any way of identifying which ones are
the lower density ?
Do you mean that I could use a 3 1/2"
floppy in the 502, with suitable data
connector of course ? That would be even cooler than a 2nd 5 1/4 !!
That would enable me to get into "serious" OS9 stuff. Woo-haa !!
Yes, provided you don't try to interface in a HD drive (1.44Meg formatted) and
expect it to work... in a pinch, it'll work IFF you use 720Meg floppies that
don't have the HD hole punched in them and the floppy honors that switch (some
don't and always assume 1.44 Meg) - the datarate is 2x on the HD floppies
compared to the DD floppies.
FHL had the "eliminator" which gave the CoCo
a HD compatible interface;
[obviously] it wasn't RS-DOS compatible and was only useful under OS-9;
otherwise there was a hack for the original WD1771-based 12-Volt eating
controllers that would double the datarate, but this was fairly involved
IIRC; never had one of the oldies, so I can't really say for sure...
Who is FHL ? Are they still in existence, and with the "eliminator". The best
thing would be a SCSI interface. Did anyone ever make one for the CoCo ?
I just ran up
and checked an old data cable for floppies. It does fit
the 502.
I'm surmising that the TEAC (FD-55BV-75-U) was a standard issue floppy
that R-S used so any 34pin 3 1/2 connector could be used to replace the
2nd edge connector on the 502. That would also imply that I could use 2 3 1/2"
floppies in there if wanted. Or am I simply running away with myself. Would
the cartridge interface accept 3 1/2" drives ?
Sure - they're electrically equivalent, and work fine (I had a DSDD 40track
5.25" drive and 2 DSDD 80track 3.5" floppies hooked up to my CoCo at one point
in time). - just remember to use the correct drivers under OS-9 when you sysgen
a new bootable floppy...
[[Sellam doesn't know what kinda fun he's
missing, thinking the CoCos are
"crap"...]] BTW, Sellam, if you want a CoCo to mess with that has just
about any kinda video you want, just get a CoCo3. It does TV/RF; Composite &
analog RGB which can be hooked up to the CM-8 from RS, or any Atari ST/Amiga
monitor (with the right cable, mind you) that can sync down to NTSC levels
(which are most all the earlier ones...)
I have a CM-5 that I used on a Tandy 1000 and on something else (cant
remember what) which used the special TRS video format (RGBI ?). Never
occurred to me, DOH, that I might be able to use it on the CoCo. I also
have 2 hi-res and 2 color AtariST monitors, Commodore- 2x 1702, 3x 1802,
for most of my 8-bits and a 2002 that 1 use for my Amiga 1K and 2 K.
It's been a while since I used my CoCos and I can't remember if I used the
CoCo 3 on anything else but a TV. Possibly a 1702 (?) What from the above
would be the best choice for a monitor, keeping in mind that it would be a bit
of a pain to split out the 13 pin Ataris ( altho I do have the p/o's). The hi-
resolution Atari, if it would work, might be interesting with OS9. Tho I
have the disks I've never used OS9 but have heard nothing but raves
about it's capabilities. I believe the manual is also on-line IIRC.
As Sam likely found, it is confusing to switch from platform to platform
concurrently. I usually immerse myself in one for some time before
working on another. I've been in a laptop mode lately. Grid and others.
I'll have to switch to a CoCo mode to explore this further.
Too many projects, too little time.
Thanks
Lawrence
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
zmerch(a)30below.com
What do you do when Life gives you lemons,
and you don't *like* lemonade?????????????
lgwalker(a)mts.net
bigwalk_ca(a)yahoo.com
11:53 a.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
Who is FHL ? Are they still in existence, and with
the "eliminator". The best
thing would be a SCSI interface. Did anyone ever make one for the CoCo ?
Frank Hoggs Labratory. Maker of fine hardware for your CoCo. No longer a
going concern.
There were three different SCSI implementation for the CoCo. Kentyon,
Disto (the 4-in-1 board) and Cloud-9 (the TC^3 board).
You can still buy a Cloud-9 interface today:
http://www.cloud9tech.com/Hardware/index.html
--
Q: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
A: Why is top posting frowned upon?
--------------------------------------------------------
tim lindner tlindner(a)ix.netcom.com
5:11 p.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
Great site for the CoCo user. These guys are actually still producing
products for the CoCo. And their prices are not out of line (for a change).
A SCSI catridge for $80, $100 with an RTC, an AT interface and more.
Thanks Tim.
lgwalker(a)mts.net
bigwalk_ca(a)yahoo.com
Who is FHL ?
Are they still in existence, and with the "eliminator". The best
thing would be a SCSI interface. Did anyone ever make one for the CoCo ?
Frank Hoggs Labratory. Maker of fine hardware for your CoCo. No longer a
going concern.
There were three different SCSI implementation for the CoCo. Kentyon,
Disto (the 4-in-1 board) and Cloud-9 (the TC^3 board).
You can still buy a Cloud-9 interface today:
http://www.cloud9tech.com/Hardware/index.html
--
Q: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
A: Why is top posting frowned upon?
--------------------------------------------------------
tim lindner tlindner(a)ix.netcom.com
12:05 p.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
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12:06 p.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
Rumor has it that Lawrence Walker may have mentioned these words:
I'm fortunate in that I laid in a good stock of
"on sale" floppies since
my STs and Amigas require them. I also have a bunch of 3 1/2" floppy
drives. Other than installing and testing them is there any way of
identifying which ones are the lower density ?
Sure, if you look just inside the dust flap on a 3.5" drive, and you see a
switch {or optical sensor) on the right hand side, it's a 1.44Meg - that's
the 1.44Meg sense switch to see if it has a HD disk in it. If the switching
mechanism is missing entirely, it's *probably* a 720K (but no absolute
guarantees). Another way is take the model number & google it -- I heard
somewhere that the Internet can be good for finding info like that... ;-)
Who is FHL ?
Frank Hogg Laboratories...
Are they still in existence, and with the
"eliminator". The best
thing would be a SCSI interface. Did anyone ever make one for the CoCo ?
FHL went the way of the dodo bird long, long ago... the eliminators are
rather rare... anyone have an extra they'd like to get rid of???
;-)
However, Mark [pause -- googling] Marlette of Cloud 9 Technologies was
making another batch of his SCSI board that used full-parity (some earlier
SCSI cards didn't have that ability, so you couldn't use certain devices
like Zip drives...) Ta'int cheap... USD $85 w/o RTC, $100 w/RTC [for the
$15, get the RTC is my feeling, anyway...] but they're new, and they're nice...
http://www.cloud9tech.com/Hardware/index.html
for a list of all his hardware that he has available...
I'm tellin' ya... this Internet thing might actually catch on someday... ;-)
How did you chain the 3rd drive ? Just with a second
connector on a
cable connected to the 1st or 2nd connector on the 502 ?
Just punched a new connector onto the existing cable... prolly not the
*right* way to do it, but as I always say: if it's stupid, but works, it
ain't stupid!
I have a CM-5 that I used on a Tandy 1000 and on
something else (cant
remember what) which used the special TRS video format (RGBI ?). Never
occurred to me, DOH, that I might be able to use it on the CoCo.
It shouldn't have occurred to you -- because you *can't* use it!!! RGBI is
not a special TRS format -- it's CGA/EGA. It's a digital mode which stands
for Red/Green/Blue/Intensity, and uses 5V digital levels. The CM-5 is also
known to be computing history's abso-frelling-lutely crappiest monitor in
the universe. It had a <gasp> .52mm dot pitch - hell, the lead in my
mechanical pencils is smaller! The CM-8 was better, but not outstanding
with a .42mm DP. You're better bets were the Magnavox 3CM515 (IIRC?) or
hacking a cable for the Atari/Amiga monitors... A few of the NEC 2[mumble]
VGA monitors with .28 DP would sync that low, too; they make gorgeous
displays, but were super-expensive way back when...
[snip]
As Sam likely found, it is confusing to switch from
platform to platform
concurrently. I usually immerse myself in one for some time before
working on another. I've been in a laptop mode lately. Grid and others.
I'll have to switch to a CoCo mode to explore this further.
Too many projects, too little time.
A good project would be a video switchbox that would take an Atari SCM1224
and give you 3 or 4 inputs for it to switch between, adapted between the
CoCo3/Atari/Amiga/others... I have a $10,000 sewer problem to repair first,
tho... :-(( <sniff>
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
zmerch(a)30below.com
What do you do when Life gives you lemons,
and you don't *like* lemonade?????????????
12:51 p.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
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1:23 p.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
> Sure, if you look just inside the dust flap on a
3.5" drive, and you see a
> switch {or optical sensor) on the right hand side, it's a 1.44Meg - that's
> the 1.44Meg sense switch to see if it has a HD disk in it. If the switching
On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
Be very careful. Some early 3.5" drives
(including the 600 rpm
full-height Sony units) put the disk-detect sensor on the right. Well, it
was a logical place to put it, out of the way of the write-protect
sensor, before there were 1.44M disks. So a sensor on the right need not
imply a 1.44M drive.
And some of the early 1.4M drives that IBM used had no 1.4M/730K sensor!
It would try both densities in read attempts, and you could
specify in software to write the lower density (for example:
FORMAT A: /T:80/N:9 ), but if you put in a 720K diskette and tried to
format, the drive would have no way to know that it was not a 1.4M.
Incidentally, such drives often won't work _at
all_ with 1.44M disks. The
HD hole lines up with the disk-detect sensor so the drive thinks there's
no disk inserted.
At least that way, it never misinterpreted a disk as the WRONG type.
1:32 p.m.
New subject: VMS TCP/IP?
Besides Multinet and TCPware, are there any freeware TCP services for VMS
6.1 and higher??? Anyone have any experience with the Purveyor webserver
for VMS?
Curt
3:06 p.m.
New subject: VMS TCP/IP?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curt Vendel" <curt(a)atari-history.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:00 AM
Subject: VMS TCP/IP?
Besides Multinet and TCPware, are there any freeware
TCP services for VMS
6.1 and higher???
There is CMU/IP, freeware IP stack originally developed at Carnegie-Mellon
Uni.
Not sure what version it was in the end, 6.something I think, most things
work ok with it, though it's a little slow.
Rather buggy too, though perhaps less so than the versions of UCX that were
around at the time it was written.
Haven't seen anything on it for a while, I think the support mailing list is
dead these days. I think there are still versions
of it out there in use and a search of the web will find it for you
somewhere.
Open source so those with the skills could tinker with it, but it's getting
pretty old. Can't recall what language it was written in,
I don't *think* it was c.
UCX is available and comes on the VMS distribution these days, still a bit
twitchy but
better than it was, if you have the hobbyist VMS licence it covers it too
IIRC.
Anyone have any experience with the Purveyor webserver
for VMS?
No, but WASD is freeware, and very well supported. We are a WASD beta site
and I know
the developer personally, he telnets in to play with it on the Vax here.
(Lives in Adelaide, just up the road, - about 140 miles)
Really good. It doesn't like CMU though, we tried it early in the WASD
development days
and it did some very odd things to web pages that were completely cured by a
shift to Multinet...
Works ok with Multinet, UCX (properly patched) and TCPWare. Still using
Multinet 3.2 Rev B here. (OLD now)
Available for Vax or Alpha. (Runs on Vax 6440 VMS 6.0 here).
Cheers
Geoff in Oz
29 Aug
29 Aug
1:24 a.m.
New subject: VMS TCP/IP?
If I remember right UCX was for VMS 4 or earlier I think.... I gotta do
some digging, I know I've got the Digital TCP Services CD someplace, I'll
look into the WASD webserver afterwards, it would be fun to check it out.
Thanks.
Curt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Roberts" <geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: VMS TCP/IP?
were
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curt Vendel" <curt(a)atari-history.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:00 AM
Subject: VMS TCP/IP?
> Besides Multinet and TCPware, are there any freeware TCP services for
VMS
6.1 and
higher???
There is CMU/IP, freeware IP stack originally developed at Carnegie-Mellon
Uni.
Not sure what version it was in the end, 6.something I think, most things
work ok with it, though it's a little slow.
Rather buggy too, though perhaps less so than the versions of UCX that around at the time it was written.
Haven't seen anything on it for a while, I think the support mailing list
is
dead these days. I think there are still versions
of it out there in use and a search of the web will find it for you
somewhere.
Open source so those with the skills could tinker with it, but it's
getting
pretty old. Can't recall what language it was
written in,
I don't *think* it was c.
UCX is available and comes on the VMS distribution these days, still a bit
twitchy but
better than it was, if you have the hobbyist VMS licence it covers it too
IIRC.
site
Anyone have any experience with the Purveyor
webserver for VMS?
No, but WASD is freeware, and very well supported. We are a WASD beta and I know
the developer personally, he telnets in to play with it on the Vax here.
(Lives in Adelaide, just up the road, - about 140 miles)
Really good. It doesn't like CMU though, we tried it early in the WASD
development days
and it did some very odd things to web pages that were completely cured by
a
shift to Multinet...
Works ok with Multinet, UCX (properly patched) and TCPWare. Still using
Multinet 3.2 Rev B here. (OLD now)
Available for Vax or Alpha. (Runs on Vax 6440 VMS 6.0 here).
Cheers
Geoff in Oz
1:39 a.m.
New subject: VMS TCP/IP?
IIRC, it's still called 'UCX' on the V7.2 hobbyistCD. I have a V5.3
system, which still calls it UCX, also. I think V6 or so was when they
starting calling it (in places) TCP/IP.
-- Pat
On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Curt Vendel wrote:
If I remember right UCX was for VMS 4 or earlier I
think.... I gotta do
some digging, I know I've got the Digital TCP Services CD someplace, I'll
look into the WASD webserver afterwards, it would be fun to check it out.
Thanks.
Curt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Roberts" <geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: VMS TCP/IP?
were
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curt Vendel" <curt(a)atari-history.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:00 AM
Subject: VMS TCP/IP?
> Besides Multinet and TCPware, are there any freeware TCP services for
VMS
6.1 and
higher???
There is CMU/IP, freeware IP stack originally developed at Carnegie-Mellon
Uni.
Not sure what version it was in the end, 6.something I think, most things
work ok with it, though it's a little slow.
Rather buggy too, though perhaps less so than the versions of UCX that around at the time it was written.
Haven't seen anything on it for a while, I think the support mailing list
is
dead these days. I think there are still
versions
of it out there in use and a search of the web will find it for you
somewhere.
Open source so those with the skills could tinker with it, but it's
getting
pretty old. Can't recall what language it
was written in,
I don't *think* it was c.
UCX is available and comes on the VMS distribution these days, still a bit
twitchy but
better than it was, if you have the hobbyist VMS licence it covers it too
IIRC.
site
Anyone have any experience with the Purveyor
webserver for VMS?
No, but WASD is freeware, and very well supported. We are a WASD beta and I know
the developer personally, he telnets in to play with it on the Vax here.
(Lives in Adelaide, just up the road, - about 140 miles)
Really good. It doesn't like CMU though, we tried it early in the WASD
development days
and it did some very odd things to web pages that were completely cured by
a
shift to Multinet...
Works ok with Multinet, UCX (properly patched) and TCPWare. Still using
Multinet 3.2 Rev B here. (OLD now)
Available for Vax or Alpha. (Runs on Vax 6440 VMS 6.0 here).
Cheers
Geoff in Oz
4:04 a.m.
New subject: VMS TCP/IP?
Thanks for the heads up Pat....
Curt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Finnegan" <pat(a)purdueriots.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: VMS TCP/IP?
IIRC, it's still called 'UCX' on the V7.2
hobbyistCD. I have a V5.3
system, which still calls it UCX, also. I think V6 or so was when they
starting calling it (in places) TCP/IP.
-- Pat
On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Curt Vendel wrote:
> If I remember right UCX was for VMS 4 or earlier I think.... I gotta do
> some digging, I know I've got the Digital TCP Services CD someplace,
I'll
> look into the WASD webserver afterwards, it would
be fun to check it
out.
> Thanks.
>
>
> Curt
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Geoff Roberts" <geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>
> To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 11:06 PM
> Subject: Re: VMS TCP/IP?
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Curt Vendel" <curt(a)atari-history.com>
> > To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:00 AM
> > Subject: VMS TCP/IP?
> >
> >
> > > Besides Multinet and TCPware, are there any freeware TCP services
for
> VMS
> > > 6.1 and higher???
> >
> > There is CMU/IP, freeware IP stack originally developed at
Carnegie-Mellon
> > Uni.
> > Not sure what version it was in the end, 6.something I think, most
things
> > work ok with it, though it's a little
slow.
> > Rather buggy too, though perhaps less so than the versions of UCX that
> were
> > around at the time it was written.
> > Haven't seen anything on it for a while, I think the support mailing
list
> is
> > dead these days. I think there are still versions
> > of it out there in use and a search of the web will find it for you
> > somewhere.
> > Open source so those with the skills could tinker with it, but it's
> getting
> > pretty old. Can't recall what language it was written in,
> > I don't *think* it was c.
> >
> > UCX is available and comes on the VMS distribution these days, still a
bit
> > twitchy but
> > better than it was, if you have the hobbyist VMS licence it covers it
too
> > IIRC.
> >
> > > Anyone have any experience with the Purveyor webserver for VMS?
> >
> > No, but WASD is freeware, and very well supported. We are a WASD beta
> site
> > and I know
> > the developer personally, he telnets in to play with it on the Vax
here.
> > (Lives in Adelaide, just up the road, -
about 140 miles)
> > Really good. It doesn't like CMU though, we tried it early in the
WASD
> > development days
> > and it did some very odd things to web pages that were completely
cured
by
> a
> > shift to Multinet...
> >
> > Works ok with Multinet, UCX (properly patched) and TCPWare. Still
using
Multinet 3.2 Rev B here. (OLD now)
Available for Vax or Alpha. (Runs on Vax 6440 VMS 6.0 here).
Cheers
Geoff in Oz
4 Sep
4 Sep
11:24 a.m.
New subject: VMS TCP/IP?
There's also CMU IP, it's freeware.
Kevin
[ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ]
Besides Multinet and TCPware, are there any freeware
TCP services for VMS
6.1 and higher??? Anyone have any experience with the Purveyor webserver
for VMS?
Curt
--
Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD
mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca
28 Aug
28 Aug
5:11 p.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
Damn ! So now I can't even be sure of any of my fdd's marked NG (since I
stupidly forgot they could be 720meg ones). Googling the model #s on old
drives is also pretty hazardous or unproductive given all the company fall-
outs. Kind of like sussing out old memory chips using chip #s or FCCs.
So, Check them out installed, and then check them out installed on another
computer. There's got to be a better way.
Lawrence
lgwalker(a)mts.net
bigwalk_ca(a)yahoo.com
> Sure, if
you look just inside the dust flap on a 3.5" drive, and you see a
> switch {or optical sensor) on the right hand side, it's a 1.44Meg - that's
> the 1.44Meg sense switch to see if it has a HD disk in it. If the switching
On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
Be very careful. Some early 3.5" drives
(including the 600 rpm
full-height Sony units) put the disk-detect sensor on the right. Well, it was
a logical place to put it, out of the way of the write-protect sensor, before
there were 1.44M disks. So a sensor on the right need not imply a 1.44M drive.
And some of the early 1.4M drives that IBM used had no 1.4M/730K sensor!
It would try both densities in read attempts, and you could
specify in software to write the lower density (for example:
FORMAT A: /T:80/N:9 ), but if you put in a 720K diskette and tried to
format, the drive would have no way to know that it was not a 1.4M.
Incidentally, such drives often won't work
_at all_ with 1.44M disks. The HD
hole lines up with the disk-detect sensor so the drive thinks there's no disk
inserted.
At least that way, it never misinterpreted a disk as the WRONG type.
29 Aug
29 Aug
7 a.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
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3:48 p.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
I asusme that;s 720K... If you can get 720M on a
3.5" floppy then I want
to see it :-)
LS120 is a start towards that. (about 100 honest meg)
Incidentally, has any manufacturer been
'cheap' enough to miss out the
sensor on a modern 1.44M drive, assuming that all disks will be 1.44M? I
could well believe it happening...
Original PS/2 (look for size identification written on the eject button)
'course there are some that wouldn't call anything "modern" unless
it runs XP.
28 Aug
28 Aug
5:10 p.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
Argghh 100 year old houses, tho great and well-built do have their problems.
$10.000 is more than I paid for mine with 2 lots.
Now that you've ticked my memory I do remember that trick of looking for
the sensor. Now I have to go thru the fdds I marked NG the last time around.
With all the takeovers and failures of once mighty companies I no longer
have the faith I once had in the hardware companies. Only Big Blue remains
faithfully supportive.
I checked out the Cloud 9 site and am totally impressed. I don't find the
prices out of line. It also led me to a site I had forgotten about, the group that
puts on the CoCo-fest in Chicago.
OK scratch the CM5. I still remember it as a step above CGA. I have a
couple of NECs that might work, that sync down to 15mhz (?) . I'll try them
and then google my way thru. :^)
Sorry Merch you just happened to be present as the most knowledgeable
man on the list about CoCos. Tony likely is the most knowledgeable about
TRS in general now that Ward Griffiths is no longer with us :^) (just kidding
Tony). And Allison, a former development mgr for TRS, IIRC, and CP/M guru,
seems to be no longer with us.
. I'm as lazy as the next man. You did give me much valuable info on the
CoCo that googling likely wouldn't have provided since I didn't know the right
questions to ask.
Thanks Merch
Rumor has it that Lawrence Walker may have mentioned
these words:
lgwalker(a)mts.net
bigwalk_ca(a)yahoo.com
I'm fortunate in that I laid in a good stock
of "on sale" floppies since
my STs and Amigas require them. I also have a bunch of 3 1/2" floppy
drives. Other than installing and testing them is there any way of
identifying which ones are the lower density ?
Sure, if you look just inside the dust flap on a 3.5" drive, and you see a
switch {or optical sensor) on the right hand side, it's a 1.44Meg - that's the
1.44Meg sense switch to see if it has a HD disk in it. If the switching
mechanism is missing entirely, it's *probably* a 720K (but no absolute
guarantees). Another way is take the model number & google it -- I heard
somewhere that the Internet can be good for finding info like that... ;-)
Who is FHL ?
Frank Hogg Laboratories...
Are they still in existence, and with the
"eliminator". The best
thing would be a SCSI interface. Did anyone ever make one for the CoCo ?
FHL went the way of the dodo bird long, long ago... the eliminators are
rather rare... anyone have an extra they'd like to get rid of???
;-)
However, Mark [pause -- googling] Marlette of Cloud 9 Technologies was
making another batch of his SCSI board that used full-parity (some earlier SCSI
cards didn't have that ability, so you couldn't use certain devices like Zip
drives...) Ta'int cheap... USD $85 w/o RTC, $100 w/RTC [for the $15, get the RTC
is my feeling, anyway...] but they're new, and they're nice...
http://www.cloud9tech.com/Hardware/index.html
for a list of all his hardware that he has available...
I'm tellin' ya... this Internet thing might actually catch on someday... ;-)
How did you chain the 3rd drive ? Just with a
second connector on a
cable connected to the 1st or 2nd connector on the 502 ?
Just punched a new connector onto the existing cable... prolly not the
*right* way to do it, but as I always say: if it's stupid, but works, it
ain't stupid!
I have a CM-5 that I used on a Tandy 1000 and on
something else (cant
remember what) which used the special TRS video format (RGBI ?). Never
occurred to me, DOH, that I might be able to use it on the CoCo.
It shouldn't have occurred to you -- because you *can't* use it!!! RGBI is not a
special TRS format -- it's CGA/EGA. It's a digital mode which stands for
Red/Green/Blue/Intensity, and uses 5V digital levels. The CM-5 is also known to
be computing history's abso-frelling-lutely crappiest monitor in the universe.
It had a <gasp> .52mm dot pitch - hell, the lead in my mechanical pencils is
smaller! The CM-8 was better, but not outstanding with a .42mm DP. You're better
bets were the Magnavox 3CM515 (IIRC?) or hacking a cable for the Atari/Amiga
monitors... A few of the NEC 2[mumble] VGA monitors with .28 DP would sync that
low, too; they make gorgeous displays, but were super-expensive way back when...
[snip]
As Sam likely found, it is confusing to switch
from platform to platform
concurrently. I usually immerse myself in one for some time before
working on another. I've been in a laptop mode lately. Grid and others.
I'll have to switch to a CoCo mode to explore this further.
Too many projects, too little time.
A good project would be a video switchbox that would take an Atari SCM1224 and
give you 3 or 4 inputs for it to switch between, adapted between the
CoCo3/Atari/Amiga/others... I have a $10,000 sewer problem to repair first,
tho... :-(( <sniff>
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
zmerch(a)30below.com
What do you do when Life gives you lemons,
and you don't *like* lemonade?????????????
27 Aug
27 Aug
1:03 p.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
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28 Aug
28 Aug
10:19 a.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
I haven't worked on my M.2 for a long time (since I first got it about 3 or 4
yrs. ago, and I'm also missing the cables for the 3 HDs) It was
recommended by several people that I transfer the programs I have from 8" to
5 1/4 disks (unless bit-rot has already got to them) and I believe there's a faq
on how to do that. Do you know if the disk controller on the model 2 /16 is
the same as on the other RS models ? If so possibly I could just transfer
them to another format.
I'm afraid I have been quite remiss in that there might be some programs that
are not currently available, especially on the hard drive.
I also have an historic machine, the Micom 2000 that was in production
before the Apple. The first one shipped July,1975. Used mainly for
wordprocessing with limited graphics ability (NASA apparently had about 100
of them). IIRC without unburying it, it had an 8080 CPU. Charlie Fox an old
list-member had a 2001 model. Phillips acquired it in 1978 or 79 and
produced it for about 5 or 6 years after. I know it had com. capabilities
and the Toronto Phillips distributor sold a program for that but I decided
at the time to forgo the $60 it would cost. :^(
At present it has a keyboard problem that I haven't been able to solve. It's
equivalent of a function key.
Undoubtably the 8" disks would copy (discounting bit-rot) and I have seen it
mentioned on disk recovery sites but I can't afford thier high prices. It used
an early Shugart SS/sd(?) 8" disk. I guess it would require some sort of disk
image program for 8 " floppies.
I used it for several years, the wordprocessing program was similar to
Scripsit and much superior to the then popular W-P or WordStar.
Using it's graphic program I produced a sales brochure using an amazingly
fast for the time Qume disk-wheel(?) printer (with the biggest separate power
supply I have ever seen) for a community newspaper in Toronto I was selling
advertising for.
Was there any disk image program for the model 2 ?
Any volunteers to recover this stuff would be more than welcome.
Lawrence
Lawrence
lgwalker(a)mts.net
bigwalk_ca(a)yahoo.com
Do you mean that I could use a 3 1/2" floppy in the 502, with suitable data
connector of course ? That would be even cooler than a 2nd 5 1/4 !!
That would enable me to get into "serious" OS9 stuff. Woo-haa !!
You can use a 720K 3.5" drive with any of the CoCo controllers (AFAIK).
It will be an 80 cylinder DS unit, which means RS-DOS won't use all of it
by any means, but OS-9 should be OK.
I have used a 3" drive (40 cylinder DS) as a second drive in one of the
CoCo drive units. No problem at all.
The same applies to the M3 and M4, BTW. I have run 720K 3.5" drives as
external drives off an M3. Again no problems given a decent OS like LDOS.
There's noting strange about the interface on Radio Shack floppy drives,
thankfully!
-tony
10:41 a.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote:
I haven't worked on my M.2 for a long time (since
I first got it about 3 or 4
yrs. ago, and I'm also missing the cables for the 3 HDs) It was
recommended by several people that I transfer the programs I have from 8" to
5 1/4 disks (unless bit-rot has already got to them) and I believe there's a faq
on how to do that. Do you know if the disk controller on the model 2 /16 is
the same as on the other RS models ? If so possibly I could just transfer
them to another format.
The Model 2/16 is MFM, with a 500K data transfer rate.
The Model 1 is FM with a 125K data transfer rate
The Model 1 with "doubler", and Model 3/4, and Coco, and M100 DVI, are MFM
with 250K data transfer rate.
All seem to be Western Digital, with reasonably "ordinary" format, except
for D.A.M. issues with model 1.
What you COULD do is to cable a 5.25" "1.2M" drive to the Model
2/16. When using 600 Oerstedt disks (aka "1.2M"), it doesn't have to know
that it is no longer talking to an 8".
Undoubtably the 8" disks would copy (discounting
bit-rot) and I have seen it
mentioned on disk recovery sites but I can't afford thier high prices. It used
an early Shugart SS/sd(?) 8" disk. I guess it would require some sort of disk
image program for 8 " floppies.
WHAT are you referring to?
Reading disks with another machine?
Reading the disks with that machine and serial transfer?
Was there any disk image program for the model 2 ?
WHAT are you referring to?
Software running on Model 2 that could read raw sectors from disks
from other machines?
Software running on Model 2
that could read files from disks from
other machines?
Software running on Model 2 that could create a raw file of the sectors of
a Model 2 disk?
1:50 p.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote:
Yes
I haven't worked on my M.2 for a long time
(since I first got it about 3 or 4
yrs. ago, and I'm also missing the cables for the 3 HDs) It was
recommended by several people that I transfer the programs I have from 8" to 5
1/4 disks (unless bit-rot has already got to them) and I believe there's a faq
on how to do that. Do you know if the disk controller on the model 2 /16 is
the same as on the other RS models ? If so possibly I could just transfer them
to another format.
The Model 2/16 is MFM, with a 500K data transfer rate.
The Model 1 is FM with a 125K data transfer rate
The Model 1 with "doubler", and Model 3/4, and Coco, and M100 DVI, are MFM
with 250K data transfer rate.
All seem to be Western Digital, with reasonably "ordinary" format, except
for D.A.M. issues with model 1.
What you COULD do is to cable a 5.25" "1.2M" drive to the Model
2/16. When using 600 Oerstedt disks (aka "1.2M"), it doesn't have to know
that it is no longer talking to an 8".
Undoubtably the 8" disks would copy
(discounting bit-rot) and I have seen it
mentioned on disk recovery sites but I can't afford thier high prices. It used
an early Shugart SS/sd(?) 8" disk. I guess it would require some sort of disk
image program for 8 " floppies.
WHAT are you referring to?
Reading disks with another machine? Reading the disks with that machine and serial
transfer?
No, I don't have a serial communication program for it nor any of the
hardware.
Was there any disk image program for the model 2
?
WHAT are you referring to?
Software running on Model 2 that could read raw sectors from disks
from other machines? Software running on Model 2 that could read files from
disks from
other machines?
Ok, but likely not possible.
Software running on Model 2 that could create a raw
file of the sectors of
a Model 2 disk?
If that was the only way of transferring the m.2 disks to a newer format
ok, but that wouldn't answer my problems with transferring the MICOM
disks to another format for preservation.
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.
Lawrence
lgwalker(a)mts.net
bigwalk_ca(a)yahoo.com
12:05 p.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
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5:43 p.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
Thanks Tony. It ain't about to happen right away, but this goes in my
archives. Come to think about it my archives are full of your insight.
Maybe the time is right to issue a CD " The world According to Tony Aird-
computer hardware hints and help". Not necessarily kidding.
Lawrence
lgwalker(a)mts.net
bigwalk_ca(a)yahoo.com
I haven't worked on my M.2 for a long time (since I first got it about 3 or 4
yrs. ago, and I'm also missing the cables for the 3 HDs) It was
recommended by several people that I transfer the programs I have from 8" to 5
1/4 disks (unless bit-rot has already got to them) and I believe there's a faq
on how to do that. Do you know if the disk controller on the model 2 /16 is
the same as on the other RS models ? If so possibly I could just transfer them
to another format.
No, the M2/12/16 machines were desigend to use 8" drives. This would
imply a 500kbps data rate (double density MFM), and a 360rpm drive. The
5.25" drives used on the CoCo, M3, M4, etc use 250kbps data
rate (again double density MFM) and turn at 300 rpm.
You should be able to wire up a 1.2Mbyte PC 5.25" drive to the M2 though.
That's electrically very like an 8" drive. I am sure a web search will
turn up something about doing this.
A 1.44Mbyte 3.5" drive _might_ work. The data rate is right, but it turns
at 300rpm. This shouldn't matter too much (there's enough time between
index pulses for the machine to fit in all the data it expects to get in
there), apart from during formating (where the machine might object to
the excessively long gap between the end of the last sector and the next
index pulse). All you can do is try it -- it might work.
-tony
29 Aug
29 Aug
7 a.m.
New subject: CoCo Floppies: Was:These darned old computers
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26 Aug
26 Aug
6:52 a.m.
On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote:
In referring to the "360k" do you mean the
model (RS 25-1060) that shipped
IIRC for the 1000HX ( ?) ? I just checked my COCO M.502 drive and the edge
connector is slightly different. It would be nice to have a useable 2nd drive
for my CoCos.
I don't know what butchery they might have done to later models (probably
just putting the power through the ribbon cable).
On the original Coco, the drive was interchangeable with the drives for
the Model 1 (*), and consisted of a "standard" drive mechanism in a case
with power supply, and a card edge extender to bring the 34 pin card edge
of the drive to the outside for cable hookup.
Radio Shack did the drive select through missing pins in the cable. Each
drive had ALL of the drive selects turned on! If you use a more
"normal" cable, then open the case and deselect the drive selects that are
not wanted.
Hmmmm. seems that for drive select 3 (fourth drive), they used a pin that
was originally intended for something other than drive select. 34? (side)
6? 8?
THAT could complicate things slightly if you need 4 drives, or use the RS
cable.
(*) NOTE: one exception to the interchange of drives between Coco and
Model 1 was that the earliest drives for the model 1 were Shugart Sa400
drives that only went to 35 tracks, and thus would FAIL on the top 5 or so
tracks.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
8:35 a.m.
Rumor has it that Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) may have mentioned these words:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote:
That's about it... otherwise it was a standard drive...
In referring to the "360k" do you mean
the model (RS 25-1060) that shipped
IIRC for the 1000HX ( ?) ? I just checked my COCO M.502 drive and the edge
connector is slightly different. It would be nice to have a useable 2nd
drive
for my CoCos.
I don't know what butchery they might have done to later models (probably
just putting the power through the ribbon cable). On the original Coco, the drive was interchangeable
with the drives for
the Model 1 (*), and consisted of a "standard" drive mechanism in a case
with power supply, and a card edge extender to bring the 34 pin card edge
of the drive to the outside for cable hookup.
Radio Shack did the drive select through missing pins in the cable. Each
drive had ALL of the drive selects turned on! If you use a more
"normal" cable, then open the case and deselect the drive selects that are
not wanted.
Hmmmm. seems that for drive select 3 (fourth drive), they used a pin that
was originally intended for something other than drive select. 34? (side)
6? 8?
THAT could complicate things slightly if you need 4 drives, or use the RS
cable.
Dunno which pin it was, bit it was the Side Select pin that they used, so
if you need to use 4 drives, you can only use SS drives... otherwise, the
CoCo's limited to 3 DS drives.
(*) NOTE: one exception to the interchange of drives
between Coco and
Model 1 was that the earliest drives for the model 1 were Shugart Sa400
drives that only went to 35 tracks, and thus would FAIL on the top 5 or so
tracks.
Noper - RS-DOS is designed for only 35-track operation, so you won't have
any problem with those drives. OS-9 also assumes 35 tracks on any bootable
software sold thru RS; OS-9's also smart enough to recognize SS floppies if
you've booted with DS drivers.
HTH,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
zmerch(a)30below.com
What do you do when Life gives you lemons,
and you don't *like* lemonade?????????????
11:06 a.m.
On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Roger Merchberger wrote:
Noper - RS-DOS is designed for only 35-track
operation, so you won't have
any problem with those [SA400] drives. OS-9 also assumes 35 tracks on
any bootable
software sold thru RS; OS-9's also smart enough to recognize SS floppies if
you've booted with DS drivers.
You're right!
Hmmm. Now I wonder what I was using/needing an external 40 track/side
drive on.
Maybe it was on a 5150.
24 Aug
24 Aug
4:09 a.m.
New subject: Dead C-64 (was Re: These darned old computers)
--- Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> wrote:
The Commodore 64 I have is just plum dead. Or at least it seems to be.
That's entirely possible. The 82S100 PLA address controller is probably
the most common thing to fail when you have a completely dead machine.
You can pull one from another C-64 to verify. Replacements can be
burned if you have a source of blank 82S100s and a burner.
The video cable I am using has four connectors on it:
red, yellow, white
and black. The 1702 monitor has three jacks on the back: chroma, luma
and audio. I tried all different combinations trying to get video on the
display but no die. What's the deal with that? I think I'm using the
wrong video cable, but all the C64 stashes I check turn up this
4-connector cable.
I have used a variety of DIN-5 to RCA cables in the past on the C-64.
Worst case, you can look up the pinout of the DIN-5 video connector
and use a VOM/continuity meter to prove which RCA jack is which signal.
You can also use the front jacks on a 1702 - composite and audio. Not
as nice, but it works fine. I used to use two computers at once from
my 1702 (three if you count the aftermarket RGB interface I stuffed into
mine - was supposed to be RGBI, but I hacked it for analog RGB and used
it with my Amiga 1000 for years).
...Grrr. I still hate the C64.
Sorry to hear that. They made me a lot of money (used to write
commercial products, c. 1982-1984). They aren't the epitome of
1980s design, but they sure did ship a lot of them.
-ethan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com
4:42 a.m.
New subject: Dead C-64 (was Re: These darned old computers)
Ethan Dicks wrote:
I found that the 64 is one of the best documented computers around, and
I have a shelf full of books to prove it. It is truly a hacker's
computer, and reflecting on all the old compute! publications, people
could do amazing things with that little machine, in spite of its slow
disk I/O.
I'm keeping mine for odd projects, such as home monitoring. If lightning
hits, I just go out and find another one for $5-10 and keep on chugging.
Gary Hildebrand
St. Joseph, MO
--- Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> wrote:
>
> The Commodore 64 I have is just plum dead. Or at least it seems to be.
> The video cable I am using has four connectors on it: red, yellow, white
> and black. The 1702 monitor has three jacks on the back: chroma, luma
> and audio. I tried all different combinations trying to get video on the
> display but no die. What's the deal with that? I think I'm using the
> wrong video cable, but all the C64 stashes I check turn up this
> 4-connector cable.
I just rolled my own a/v Cable with a 5 pin DIN plug. The later
machines with the 8 pin jack still used the same pins, and the 5 pin
plug fits nicely.
I have used a variety of DIN-5 to RCA cables in the past on the C-64.
Worst case, you can look up the pinout of the DIN-5 video connector
and use a VOM/continuity meter to prove which RCA jack is which signal.
...Grrr. I still hate the C64.
Sorry to hear that. They made me a lot of money (used to write
commercial products, c. 1982-1984). They aren't the epitome of
1980s design, but they sure did ship a lot of them.
-ethan 
9:41 a.m.
New subject: Dead C-64 (was Re: These darned old computers)
Gary Hildebrand wrote:
I found that the 64 is one of the best documented
computers around,
and I have a shelf full of books to prove it. It is truly a hacker's
computer, and reflecting on all the old compute! publications, people
could do amazing things with that little machine, in spite of its slow
disk I/O.
Shame they never seem to appear around my neck of the woods (West
Yorkshire,
UK). I picked one up but it's stone dead. PSU is fried, all I've got in the
way of PSUs is a 2-channel 0-30V @ 1A per channel benchtop. Can I get a C64
to boot using this, even just to see if the VIC, CPU, etc are OK?
Alternatively, anyone in the UK got a spare C64, PSU and disk drive (5 1/4"
or 3 1/2", I don't care either way).
Later.
--
Phil.
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/
PGP Key ID: 0x0E18C95F
PGP Key Fingerprint: 2741 5CB7 1D45 6F77 D1FC FA3D 7A87 2DA4 0E18 C95F
12:29 p.m.
New subject: Dead C-64 (was Re: These darned old computers)
I found that the 64 is one of the best documented
computers around, and
I have a shelf full of books to prove it. It is truly a hacker's
computer, and reflecting on all the old compute! publications, people
could do amazing things with that little machine, in spite of its slow
disk I/O.
Speaking of slow disk I/O, one of my next projects for the C64 web browser
I threw together is to make it boot faster. I think 128 mode will do
nicely for this task and shouldn't disturb compatibility.
Also, I need to get Nether done ... hope to have a demo for VCF!
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- Stand by to launch beef by-product into oscillating ventilation unit ... ---
6:28 a.m.
New subject: Dead C-64 (was Re: These darned old computers)
On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote:
I'll like it again once it starts working.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
I have used a variety of DIN-5 to RCA cables in the
past on the C-64.
Worst case, you can look up the pinout of the DIN-5 video connector and
use a VOM/continuity meter to prove which RCA jack is which signal.
I figure one of the connectors ought to show at least something, which is
what leads me to believe that the computer is dead.
...Grrr. I
still hate the C64.
Sorry to hear that. They made me a lot of money (used to write
commercial products, c. 1982-1984). They aren't the epitome of
1980s design, but they sure did ship a lot of them. 
8:54 a.m.
New subject: Dead C-64 (was Re: These darned old computers)
Have you checked the 1702?
Dave B(who has an attic full of C64 stuff!)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: Dead C-64 (was Re: These darned old computers)
On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote:
I'll like it again once it starts working.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
I have used a variety of DIN-5 to RCA cables in
the past on the C-64.
Worst case, you can look up the pinout of the DIN-5 video connector and
use a VOM/continuity meter to prove which RCA jack is which signal.
I figure one of the connectors ought to show at least something, which is
what leads me to believe that the computer is dead.
...Grrr.
I still hate the C64.
Sorry to hear that. They made me a lot of money (used to write
commercial products, c. 1982-1984). They aren't the epitome of
1980s design, but they sure did ship a lot of them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at
www.VintageTech.com *
12:49 p.m.
New subject: Dead C-64 (was Re: These darned old computers)
On Sun, 25 Aug 2002, Dave Brown wrote:
Have you checked the 1702?
Yes! It mostly works (no audio).
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
6:45 a.m.
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8:03 a.m.
On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
Yes. But I've seen dead C64's that have a lit LED.
The hardware design is limiting. This was not meant to be expanded or
extended easily.
Anyway, you can get the disk controller or RS232 board
out relatively
easily. Open up the case. If you have a US model you then have to undo the
screws holding the shield over the back of the logic boards, if you have
an 'export' model, then just take off the little bracket at the top (2
scres). Then unplug all the connectors on the CPU board (IIRC you can't
Relatively easy? Relative to what? :)
get these back in the wrong places). Don't forget
the 2 (delicate)
tapewires at the top that carry the bus signals from the CPU board to the
disk controller/RS232.
These weren't too bad but the adhesive on the one for the disk controller
had gone brittle and the leads started to peel off. I had to use a small
jewelers screwdriver to pinch them into the connector.
Then undo all the screws holding the CPU board in
place and take it out
(you can leave all the metalwork fixed to the bottom case). Finally, undo
the 4 screws holding the disk controller or RS232 board as appropriate,
unplug the power cable (and internal drive cable if you're doing the disk
controller) and take the board out.
Yeah, what I said. Pain in the ass ;)
I am supriused. I though the power cable was present
on all machines. But
admittedly I can't be sure since my M3 and M4 came with the RS232 board
fitted.
I can't say having seen only two samples, but what leads me to believe
that the cable was added only with the serial port option is that each
power cable is labeled for its function. The CPU power cable is labeled
"CPU" and the RS232 option cable is labeled "RS232".
The Commodore
64 I have is just plum dead. Or at least it seems to be.
The video cable I am using has four connectors on it: red, yellow, white
and black. The 1702 monitor has three jacks on the back: chroma, luma and
audio. I tried all different combinations trying to get video on the
display but no die. What's the deal with that? I think I'm using the
Is the 'power' LED on on the C64? PSUs for these machins are notoriously
unreliable. The Radio
Shack Color Computer 2 is confusing. And somewhat lame. I have
Considering it's the only machine you've mentioned that can run
multi-user, I think that 'lame' is a bit inappropriate! Correct. The CoCo2 only has an RF output as standard.
The CoCo3 has
composite video (and audio) outputs, an analogue RGB output connector,
and so on. Not to mention that the CoCo 3 is a much nicer machine in
other ways!
True, but that doesn't excuse RS for making the CoCo2 so cut-rate.
Thanks for the video tips. I'll try them out later.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
8:20 a.m.
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12:46 p.m.
On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
That is not 'taking everything out'. Taking
everything out would imply
removing the drives, drive tower, both PSUs, etc. The only time you need
to do that is when you want to remove the metalwork that supports the CPU
board, which isn't very often.
I'm comparing it to the Apple ][. Pop the lid, stuff in the card, put the
lid back.
I have taken M3s and M4s totally apart for cleaning.
They're not that bad
when you get used to them. Large numbers of screws have never bothered me
though.
It's a brain-dead design, in line with a lot what Radio Shack put out over
the years.
You have a full 6809 expansion bus on the side of the
machine. What more
do you want?
A composite video output ;)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
1:05 p.m.
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2:04 p.m.
On Sun, 25 Aug 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
Oh, come on, Tony!
Let's compare:
I. Installing a serial card
Apple ][:
1. Pop lid
2. Insert card
3. Run tail out back portal
4. Replace lid
TRS-80 Model III:
1. Remove screw on back
2. Remove 8 screws on bottom
3. Carefully lift top part of assembly making sure not to damage CRT neck
4. Remove 6 screws securing shield around motherboard
5. Remove 8 screws securing motherboard
6. Disconnect 4 cables connected to motherboard
6. Remove motherboard
7. Insert serial card
8. Screw into place (4 screws)
9. Run power cable from power supply to serial board
10. Replace motherboard
11. Re-connect cables
12. Replace motherboard screws
13. Re-fit shield and its screws
14. Carefully place top assembly making sure the CRT neck does not tangle
with the ground wires near the top of the motherboard
15. Replace 8 screws for top lid and one screw for back lid
Ok, 4 steps vs. 15.
Now, if you need to remove the motherboard from an Apple ][, you remove
the 7-8 screws on the bottom, lift the cover off, and now the entire
motherboard is exposed. Maybe 5-6 screws hold the motherboard in place.
Disconnect the power connector, the speaker, and the keyboard, and lift
the motherboard out.
Not totally trivial? You're much more capable than that, Tony.
And I've already told you where to find this. At least Radio Shack sold
Um, let me qualify that then: a compositve video output already built-in
so I don't have to hack one into it.
I'm
comparing it to the Apple ][. Pop the lid, stuff in the card, put the
lid back.
Yes, and I remember having to extract the mainboard or the keyboard from
an Apple ][ for repairs. Not totally trivial. I also well remember the
entertainment of repairing an Apple ][ PSU (darn marginal thing!). To be fair, just about all consumer-grade
microcomputers have some
less-than-ideal design featuers, and to single one machine out because of
the number of screws that hold the CPU board in place is rather unfair...
No it's not. If it takes 23 screws to insert an option then that's a shit
design. At least with the Atari or C64, to add a peripheral you simply
plugged it into the serial chain. More consumer friendly.
Again, I am guessing this is why Radio Shack wanted you to bring your
computer into a service center to upgrade it. It was not meant for casual
consumer hacking.
You have a full 6809 expansion bus on the side of the
machine. What more
do you want?
A composite video output ;) proper technical manuals (with full schematics) for a
sane price (I think
I paid \pounds 0.99 for the CoCo one, off the shelf in the local Tandy
shop). Which is more than many manufactueres ever did...
Hello? Apple included full technical specs and schematics with every
Apple ][ sold. It wasn't until the Apple //e that they got greedy and
made you buy a separate volume for that, but it was still available.
Ditto for the Commodore 64 and I imagine the Atari 800.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
2:34 p.m.
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25 Aug
25 Aug
5:10 a.m.
On Sun, 25 Aug 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
Well, maybe remembering what slot your sound card went into taxes your
memory capacity, Tony, but I never had a problem with it. Plus, how many
times do you ever have to take the motherboard out of your Apple for any
reason? In all the years I had mine, I never had to. Anything I wanted
access to I could get to from popping the lid.
Why are you needlessly dragging this argument out?
"'Officially'"? It *was* available. And as I clearly state above,
every
Apple ][ shipped with one. There was one for the Apple //e but you had to
purchase it separately. It was an item you could order through any
bookstore as far as I know. Maybe the bookstores in the UK were
deliberately witholding it from you.
And just how often do you intend to install a serial
card? I've taken my
M3 and M4 totally apart _once_ (this included removing the serial card,
and refitting it later). It's not something I intend doing very often...
Granted, but that doesn't negate the fact that it's a shit design. Also,
when I was using my Apple ][ in my younger days, I would regularly swap
out different cards that had different functions. So having a nice,
convenient, friendly way to do this was nice.
Now, if you
need to remove the motherboard from an Apple ][, you remove
the 7-8 screws on the bottom, lift the cover off, and now the entire
motherboard is exposed. Maybe 5-6 screws hold the motherboard in place.
Plus : Removing all the add-on cards, remembering which slots they go
into, where the jumpers/kludgeboards go for things like 80 column cards,
PAL encoder, sound card, etc. Hello? Apple
included full technical specs and schematics with every
Apple ][ sold. It wasn't until the Apple //e that they got greedy and
made you buy a separate volume for that, but it was still available.
It may have been 'officially' available, but it was next-to-impossible to
get the //e technical manual in the UK. I managed to get one about 4
years ago, after I'd been seriously looking for many years. I've never
seen a //c technical manaul, although I believe it existed. Contrast that with what happened when I got my CoCos
and M100. Walked
into the local Tandy shop, picked up a technical manual off the shelf.
And it was a lot cheaper than the //e technical manaul (but no less
complete IMHO).
Congratulations.
I have never seen an Atari 400 or 800 schematic. I am
told there was a
manual published that contained it, but I tried for many weeks to get it
(again, many years ago), and gave up in the end. It certainly didn't
come with the machine, and the main Atari dealers in London had never
heard of it.
De Re Atari was the definitive Atari reference manual with schematics and
everything. Most everyone who ever owned an Atari 800 knew about it. It
was readily available. Again, maybe the UK dealers were conspiring
against you.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
8:22 a.m.
De Re Atari was the definitive Atari reference manual
with schematics and
everything. Most everyone who ever owned an Atari 800 knew about it. It
was readily available. Again, maybe the UK dealers were conspiring
against you.
Did it have hardware information? My copy of 'De Re Atari'
is all from the programming perspective and didn't include any
schematics or other hardware info unless it applied to programming,
such as the memory maps and such. Still an excellent source of
information though.
Jeff
--
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.cchaven.com
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
11:13 a.m.
New subject: Wanted: Minivac 601 documentation
I've been looking speculatively at the Tic-Tac-Toe board on my Minivac 601
and want to know how to wire it up to play the game.
Has anyone out there scanned the various docs for this system? If not,
would anyone be willing to lend their docs to me so I could scan them?
I have this odd deja vu feeling that I've asked this question before, but
couldn't find any old mail to confirm it.
Thanks!
-- Tony
9:19 a.m.
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24 Aug
24 Aug
4:40 p.m.
It is important to consider which "options" were considered by the
manufacturer to be user-installable. RS did NOT think that a user
could/should install a serial port!
It's a little like replacing an automobile drainpan gasket - NOT intended
for field replacement.
And, as to the Coco,...
The stories appear to be true that RS DELIBERATELY packaged the Coco in
order to PREVENT expansion, competition with their other models, or even
serious usage. (consider their choice of video mode(s), RF video out ONLY,
etc.)
4:51 p.m.
On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
And, as to the Coco,...
The stories appear to be true that RS DELIBERATELY packaged the Coco in
order to PREVENT expansion, competition with their other models, or even
serious usage. (consider their choice of video mode(s), RF video out ONLY,
etc.)
Umm. I've a CoCo 3 with integrated RF /and/ composite video out. So,
if you went for the high-end model, Radio Shack provided users with that
option.
-brian.
4:57 p.m.
> And, as to the Coco,...
> The stories appear to be true that RS DELIBERATELY packaged the Coco in
> order to PREVENT expansion, competition with their other models, or even
> serious usage. (consider their choice of video mode(s), RF video out ONLY,
> etc.)
On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, Brian Chase wrote:
Umm. I've a CoCo 3 with integrated RF /and/
composite video out. So,
if you went for the high-end model, Radio Shack provided users with that
option.
That model came MUCH later, after RS learned the hard way about how their
users felt about certain of their decisions (such as "chiclets keyboards!)
25 Aug
25 Aug
5:15 a.m.
On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, Brian Chase wrote:
On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
Two different models of computer. We're talking about the CoCo2. The
CoCo3 is definitely a leap forward in many regards.
The CoCo2 only has an RF video out.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
And, as to the Coco,...
The stories appear to be true that RS DELIBERATELY packaged the Coco in
order to PREVENT expansion, competition with their other models, or even
serious usage. (consider their choice of video mode(s), RF video out ONLY,
etc.)
Umm. I've a CoCo 3 with integrated RF /and/ composite video out. So,
if you went for the high-end model, Radio Shack provided users with that
option.
5:29 a.m.
On Sun, 25 Aug 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote:
Two different models of computer. We're talking
about the CoCo2. The
CoCo3 is definitely a leap forward in many regards.
The CoCo2 only has an RF video out.
I was talking about the Coco.
You've got a model that is a leap forward in many regards.
Yours was even intended to have more than 16K of RAM!
6:31 a.m.
On Sun, 25 Aug 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
Admittedly, the original CoCo was a terribly lame computer system.
I can say this because my first home computer, as a wee little fellow
in my 7th year, was a 4KB CoCo with a cassette recorder for storage.
Last night I did a little searching on the net, curious about the
history of the system, and found that it was introduced in 1980 at
a price of US$399. From what little I know of home computer prices
around that time, it seems like a fairly inexpensive system.
My questions are: what other systems were in the same price range
as the original CoCo when it was introduced, and what were their
feature sets?
-brian.
On Sun, 25 Aug 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote:
Two different
models of computer. We're talking about the CoCo2. The
CoCo3 is definitely a leap forward in many regards.
The CoCo2 only has an RF video out.
I was talking about the Coco.
You've got a model that is a leap forward in many regards.
Yours was even intended to have more than 16K of RAM! 
1:03 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <cisin(a)xenosoft.com>
It's a little like replacing an automobile drainpan gasket - NOT intended
for field replacement.
Sure it is - if you have the right tools. I replaced my oil pan gasket
earlier this year. It wasn't that difficult. Here is the procedure I used:
1. Build new engine in basement over the winter. Add in lots of options
like flat-top pistions, performance cam, hi-flow intake, hi-flow carb,
performance crank shaft
2. Remove old engine with leaking seals, no compression, worn out bearings
3. Install new engine
ob. classiccmp stuff:
During the replacement, I removed the vintage engine control computer, since
it didn't know squat about the new engine and wouldn't have been able to
control it. Went from about a billion wires running to the engine to a
total of six - two for the distributor, two for the coil, and one each for
the temp sensor and oil pressure sensor. Any one interested in an engine
control computer for a 1982 Ford 302 motor?
5:01 a.m.
> It's a little like replacing an automobile
drainpan gasket - NOT intended
> for field replacement.
On Sun, 25 Aug 2002, Christopher McNabb wrote:
Sure it is - if you have the right tools. I replaced
my oil pan gasket
earlier this year. It wasn't that difficult. Here is the procedure I used:
NO.
With the right tools, tasks that were not intended for field replacement
can, indeed, be done in the field, regardless of what the manufacturer
intended.
THAT does not change that they were not intended for field replacement.
I can easily install a serial port for a model 3 in the field. But it was
NOT intended for field installation. It was intended to be a factory, or
"service center" installation. RS was even into putting sealant
("glyptol"?) on case screws to void warranties if field mods were made.
I can overhaul an engine under a tree. But it was NOT intended to be done
in the field. It was intended to be done in a "fully equipped service
center".
9:18 a.m.
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5:14 a.m.
On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
And, as to the Coco,...
The stories appear to be true that RS DELIBERATELY packaged the Coco in
order to PREVENT expansion, competition with their other models, or even
serious usage. (consider their choice of video mode(s), RF video out ONLY,
etc.)
Good luck convincing Tony "I took the machine home and brought it to bits
so that I could properly document it" Duell of this.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
5:41 a.m.
> And, as to the Coco,...
> The stories appear to be true that RS DELIBERATELY packaged the Coco in
> order to PREVENT expansion, competition with their other models, or even
> serious usage. (consider their choice of video mode(s), RF video out ONLY,
> etc.)
On Sun, 25 Aug 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote:
Good luck convincing Tony "I took the machine
home and brought it to bits
so that I could properly document it" Duell of this.
MOST or RS's efforts to mispackage it won't stop a determined hacker who
is adept with engineering knowledge or a soldering iron.
I hooked up composite video on mine the first day, but waited almost a
week before increasing the RAM.
But they can sure be annoying to somebody who wants a retail product to be
ready to use.
And they can be exceptionally exasperating when you compare it with what
they COULD HAVE done.
9:19 a.m.
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9:51 a.m.
On Sun, 25 Aug 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
I only put the 64K RAMs in when I got a disk drive (I
wanted to run OS-9
of course). But I put the 512K card in my CoCo 3 almost as soon as I got
it [ Got CoCo 3 shipped from the States, plugged it into a 110V
transformer over here, proved it worked, pulled the cover, fitted a 240V
transformer and the 512K board).
Come on, Tony, isn't it you who's always on about plugging in a machine
and seeing if it turns on being the wrong way to check its operational
state? There could've been any number of forseeable defects which would've
resulted in utter system failure or even fire, that it might have arrived
with from the factory.
Tzk. No harm in being thorough, you know.
ok
r.
ps. smile.
pps. \end{tease}
10:04 a.m.
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8:15 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Unfortunately, the licence now applies if you have equipment capable of
receiving TV transmissions, regardless of the purpose for which it used, so
you can try to convince the authorities all you like...
A monitor, as you used, always avoids the license, so you would still have
been safe, but even owning a VCR or TV and keeping it in the loft requires a
license now.
Cheers,
Dave.
MOST or
RS's efforts to mispackage it won't stop a determined hacker who
is adept with engineering knowledge or a soldering iron.
Will anything :-). Darn it, HP's trick of heat-staking their calculators
together and using undocumented custom chips hasn't stopped me taking
them apart and modifying them ;-).
I hooked up composite video on mine the first day, but waited almost a
So did I. For a very good reason. I was a student at the time. Now in the
UK, you have to buy a license (really a tax) to operate a TV receiver.
Now, a TV set used as a computer monitor doesn't need a license, but it
can be difficult to convince the authorities that you don't use it to
watch TV as well.
26 Aug
26 Aug
2:28 a.m.
New subject: [OT] UK TV Licenses (was Re: These darned old computers)
On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Dave Woodman - dave(a)naffnet.org.uk wrote:
Unfortunately, the licence now applies if you have
equipment capable of
receiving TV transmissions, regardless of the purpose for which it used, so
you can try to convince the authorities all you like...
A monitor, as you used, always avoids the license, so you would still have
been safe, but even owning a VCR or TV and keeping it in the loft requires a
license now.
Ok, now you've got me wondering... I've never heard of anything like that
on this side of the pond. Why exactly do you have to purchase a license
to own a TV? Is it similar for AM/FM radios? ...
2:46 a.m.
New subject: [OT] UK TV Licenses (was Re: These darned old computers)
On Mon, 2002-08-26 at 15:27, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Dave Woodman -
dave(a)naffnet.org.uk wrote:
The money goes to the BBC
(British Broadcasting Corp), and I feel it is
well worth the relatively small amount per person to get such great,
ad-less TV.
Before you UKers tag me on the "great TV" bit, just think about channel
5, on channel 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.
Alex
--
Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance
like no-one is watching.
Unfortunately, the licence now applies if you
have equipment capable of
receiving TV transmissions, regardless of the purpose for which it used, so
you can try to convince the authorities all you like...
A monitor, as you used, always avoids the license, so you would still have
been safe, but even owning a VCR or TV and keeping it in the loft requires a
license now.
Ok, now you've got me wondering... I've never heard of anything like that
on this side of the pond. Why exactly do you have to purchase a license
to own a TV? Is it similar for AM/FM radios? ...
8:19 a.m.
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8:52 a.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
HAs this now officially been changed? The authorities have tried to claim
this for many years, but the license documents say otherwise ('a license
for establishing a TV receiving station' or something like that).
I'm afraid that this was changed a few years ago, along with the requirement for
a vendor to report any TV sale to the licensing authority.
Not any more! Possession of equipment capable of receiving is the new legal
yardstick - too easy to hide a set-top aerial, and too easy to watch videos that
were recorded (perhaps by someone else) off air.
Now, a TV set used as a computer monitor doesn't
need a license, but it
can be difficult to convince the authorities that you don't use it to
watch TV as well.
Unfortunately, the licence now applies if you have equipment capable of
receiving TV transmissions, regardless of the purpose for which it used, so
you can try to convince the authorities all you like... A monitor, as you used, always avoids the
license, so you would still have
been safe, but even owning a VCR or TV and keeping it in the loft requires a
license now.
Hmm.. A TV set is not a 'TV receiving station'. This _has_ been legally
tested AFAIK. You need an aerial as well, you see :-). A TV set with no
way of connecting it to an aerial certainly didn't use to need a license.
The other thing is that the TV set has to be capable of receiving the
current transmissions. This means that 405 line sets don't need a license
(I have checked this!). Nor do non-working TVs. And non-working basically
means (or used to mean) 'cannot be quickly used to receive TV
programmes'. So if you just unplug the aerial, that doesn't count, But if
you unplug internal connectors, or remove PCBs (even if you then keep
then on top of the set), you don't need a license. Or at least you
didn't a few years ago. Again I checked. I was given a non-working
(mechanical fault) Philips N1500 VCR, and I wanted to keep it in a house
with no TV license. The authorities told me that if I removed the channel
selector board (I suggested this, it is the only plug-in board and it
would disable the tuner if removed), then it was not a 'TV receiving
station' and didn't need a license. The fact that the missing PCB was in
the same room didn't matter.
You are right, but then these items are not 'capable of receiving' - they are
therefore exempt. Don't put that PCB back, though! :-)
THis could all have changed now. In which case my junk box would need a
TV license (it contains sufficient components to make a TV set) ;-)
Nah, no need to bother... not unless you render it capable.
[For the benefit of any TV licensing types reading this, said junk box is
currently at an address that has a valid TV license]
-tony
Sorry to have caused confusion - I hope that that 'capable of receiving' helps.
The loophole is still a VCR with no tuner, connected to a video monitor (or via
SCART/composite to a TV with no tuner) used to watch recorded-off-air tapes. No
doubt it will be plugged soon enough by the powers-that-be.
Cheers,
Dave.
9:02 a.m.
So how much is this silly tv tax anyway? :)
g.
On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Dave Woodman - dave(a)naffnet.org.uk wrote:
Tony Duell wrote:
HAs this now officially been changed? The authorities have tried to claim
this for many years, but the license documents say otherwise ('a license
for establishing a TV receiving station' or something like that).
I'm afraid that this was changed a few years ago, along with the requirement for
a vendor to report any TV sale to the licensing authority.
Not any more! Possession of equipment capable of receiving is the new legal
yardstick - too easy to hide a set-top aerial, and too easy to watch videos that
were recorded (perhaps by someone else) off air.
Now, a TV set used as a computer monitor doesn't
need a license, but it
can be difficult to convince the authorities that you don't use it to
watch TV as well.
Unfortunately, the licence now applies if you have equipment capable of
receiving TV transmissions, regardless of the purpose for which it used, so
you can try to convince the authorities all you like... A monitor, as you used, always avoids the
license, so you would still have
been safe, but even owning a VCR or TV and keeping it in the loft requires a
license now.
Hmm.. A TV set is not a 'TV receiving station'. This _has_ been legally
tested AFAIK. You need an aerial as well, you see :-). A TV set with no
way of connecting it to an aerial certainly didn't use to need a license.
The other thing is that the TV set has to be capable of receiving the
current transmissions. This means that 405 line sets don't need a license
(I have checked this!). Nor do non-working TVs. And non-working basically
means (or used to mean) 'cannot be quickly used to receive TV
programmes'. So if you just unplug the aerial, that doesn't count, But if
you unplug internal connectors, or remove PCBs (even if you then keep
then on top of the set), you don't need a license. Or at least you
didn't a few years ago. Again I checked. I was given a non-working
(mechanical fault) Philips N1500 VCR, and I wanted to keep it in a house
with no TV license. The authorities told me that if I removed the channel
selector board (I suggested this, it is the only plug-in board and it
would disable the tuner if removed), then it was not a 'TV receiving
station' and didn't need a license. The fact that the missing PCB was in
the same room didn't matter.
You are right, but then these items are not 'capable of receiving' - they are
therefore exempt. Don't put that PCB back, though! :-)
THis could all have changed now. In which case my junk box would need a
TV license (it contains sufficient components to make a TV set) ;-)
Nah, no need to bother... not unless you render it capable.
[For the benefit of any TV licensing types reading this, said junk box is
currently at an address that has a valid TV license]
-tony
Sorry to have caused confusion - I hope that that 'capable of receiving' helps.
The loophole is still a VCR with no tuner, connected to a video monitor (or via
SCART/composite to a TV with no tuner) used to watch recorded-off-air tapes. No
doubt it will be plugged soon enough by the powers-that-be.
Cheers,
Dave.
9:24 a.m.
So how much is this silly tv tax anyway? :)
I don't know that I'd call it silly since the BBC seems to do
a better job than the networks over here and the junk they tend to
show. Especially if they don't get interupted by commercials every 8
minutes or so.
Jeff
--
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.cchaven.com
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
9:42 a.m.
So how much is
this silly tv tax anyway? :)
I don't know that I'd call it silly since the BBC seems to do
a better job than the networks over here and the junk they tend to
show. Especially if they don't get interupted by commercials every 8
minutes or so.
10:10 a.m.
So how much is
this silly tv tax anyway? :)
I don't know that I'd call it silly since the BBC seems to do
a better job than the networks over here and the junk they tend to
show. Especially if they don't get interupted by commercials every 8
minutes or so. 
27 Aug
27 Aug
1:18 a.m.
At 05:06 PM 8/26/2002 -0500, Eric Dittman wrote:
I say for the most part since we do seem to get a lot
of
reruns of "Are You Being Served?", "'Allo, 'Allo", and
some other crap comedies.
Galavision is almost as much fun. At any given moment,
you can turn to Galavision or Univision and there's
an 86% chance the show will involve a young woman who could
be Selma Hayek's sister. And S?bado Gigante! What a show.
I wish they'd just fill up all 999 channels on my DirecTV
with all those crap-filled channels from around the world,
so I could find the gems on my own. Perhaps my favorite
show is the Japanese "This Old House," or the Finnish
fishing show, and I don't know it yet. They could fill
ten channels with "The Best of The World's Community Access
Channels" alone. Or what about a Akihabara channel with the
latest gadgets we can't buy yet?
Uh oh, now we've given Sellam the idea to pitch that
"This Old Computer" pilot to TechTV. Spin-offs! Books,
t-shirts, custom pocket protectors, videos, trips around
the world to visit collectors and museums! Not to mention
the groupies.
- John
7:17 a.m.
John Foust wrote:
Or what about a Akihabara channel with the
latest gadgets we can't buy yet?
I just
bought a tube stereo http://www.s5electronics.com/gpage1.html
and thinking a ALL TUBE remote would be nice. :)
1:03 p.m.
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1:13 p.m.
On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
Some US company (I forget who) made an ultrasonic
remote controlled valve TV
where the remote was essentially tuned metal bars that were mechanically
hit when the button was pressed. No electronics in the handset at all.
The receiver in the TV detected one of 4 (or so) different frequencies
corresponding to the 4 buttons on the remote, and then operated a relay
to trigger the appropriate function (I think channel selection was done
using an electromechanical stepping swtich, etc).
-tony
I think that was Zenith, My uncle used to have one. It would turn on if you
jingled your keys...
Peter Wallace
1:41 p.m.
"Peter C. Wallace" wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
Yes, Zenith. If I recall correctly, their remote-control
system was called "Space Command" or something like that.
Some US company (I forget who) made an ultrasonic
remote controlled valve TV
where the remote was essentially tuned metal bars that were mechanically
hit when the button was pressed. No electronics in the handset at all.
The receiver in the TV detected one of 4 (or so) different frequencies
corresponding to the 4 buttons on the remote, and then operated a relay
to trigger the appropriate function (I think channel selection was done
using an electromechanical stepping swtich, etc).
-tony
I think that was Zenith, My uncle used to have one. It would turn on if you
jingled your keys...
Peter Wallace
1:51 p.m.
I think that
was Zenith, My uncle used to have one. It would turn on if you
jingled your keys...
Yes, Zenith. If I recall correctly, their remote-control
system was called "Space Command" or something like that.
28 Aug
28 Aug
11:14 a.m.
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27 Aug
27 Aug
5:19 p.m.
On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
I think you are correct. IIRC, ours was known to come to life under the
influence of the vacuum cleaner on occasion.
- don
Some US company (I forget who) made an ultrasonic
remote controlled valve TV
where the remote was essentially tuned metal bars that were mechanically
hit when the button was pressed. No electronics in the handset at all.
The receiver in the TV detected one of 4 (or so) different frequencies
corresponding to the 4 buttons on the remote, and then operated a relay
to trigger the appropriate function (I think channel selection was done
using an electromechanical stepping swtich, etc).
-tony
I think that was Zenith, My uncle used to have one. It would turn on if you
jingled your keys... Peter Wallace
1:58 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
Some US company (I forget who) made an ultrasonic
remote controlled valve
TV
where the remote was essentially tuned metal bars that
were mechanically
hit when the button was pressed. No electronics in the handset at all.
The receiver in the TV detected one of 4 (or so) different frequencies
corresponding to the 4 buttons on the remote, and then operated a relay
to trigger the appropriate function (I think channel selection was done
using an electromechanical stepping swtich, etc).
Boy, that brings back memories. We had one of these sets when I was in
high-school.
I believe it was a Zenith, though I wouldn't swear to it. I used to get a
kick out of clicking
the buttons just to hear the sounds. You are correct in that the channel
selection was
electro-mechanical. It was also a very loud mechanism.
This type of remote control is also where the term 'clicker' came from.
2:14 p.m.
On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Christopher McNabb wrote:
This type of remote control is also where the term
'clicker' came from.
Uh, I always thought it came from the very early remotes that used a
tone, somewhat like a tuning fork. The audible click _was_ the
actuator. My grandparents' TV would change channels at random if you
rattled the swag-lamp chain just right. I may have gotten a few hidings
behind that....
Doc
4:39 p.m.
On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
Some US company (I forget who) made an ultrasonic
remote controlled
valve TV where the remote was essentially tuned metal bars that were
mechanically hit when the button was pressed. No electronics in the
handset at all. The receiver in the TV detected one of 4 (or so)
different frequencies corresponding to the 4 buttons on the remote, and
then operated a relay to trigger the appropriate function (I think
channel selection was done using an electromechanical stepping swtich,
etc).
Boy, I'd like to get my hands on one of those remotes.
Anyone know the exact model number of the TV that used it?
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
28 Aug
28 Aug
11:14 a.m.
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29 Aug
29 Aug
3:51 a.m.
No, the remote that came with a TV my grandmother had (mid 1960's) had
only 2 buttons. I think it worked either by the clicking, or a static
pulse. All it did was select channels up & down.
Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
>Some US company (I forget who) made an ultrasonic remote controlled
>valve TV where the remote was essentially tuned metal bars that were
>mechanically hit when the button was pressed. No electronics in the
>handset at all. The receiver in the TV detected one of 4 (or so)
>different frequencies corresponding to the 4 buttons on the remote, and
>then operated a relay to trigger the appropriate function (I think
>channel selection was done using an electromechanical stepping swtich,
>etc).
11:11 p.m.
At 11:01 PM 8/26/2002 -0700, you wrote:
Yes, do be careful -- their equipment can pinpoint a purr at 400 yards!
-- Tony
[For the
benefit of any TV licensing types reading this, said junk box
is currently at an address that has a valid TV license]
OK. But if you have a cat, watch out for the cat detector van from the
Ministry of Ousing.
27 Aug
27 Aug
1:03 p.m.
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28 Aug
28 Aug
5:18 a.m.
Strange,
I've got a cat who also loves HP manuals, and old HP hardware too. This
cat loves to climb up on
top of a 6-foot HP rack and dangle over the top edge, occationally
batting at the LEDs on the
front pannel of a HP2113 when it runs a 'Cylon' blinky-light idel loop.
Tony Duell wrote:
OK. But if you
have a cat, watch out for the cat detector van from the
Ministry of Ousing.
That's 'Ministry of Housinge' in the scripts....
And, FWIW, I have access to a cat. A neighbours cat who loves HP stuff (I
kid you not, he will pick a pile of HP manuals to sleep on if he gets the
chance). Cats are the only creatures who are allowed to knock parts off
my workbench without getting flamed :-)
-tony
5:52 a.m.
Bob Shannon wrote:
Strange,
I've got a cat who also loves HP manuals, and old HP
hardware too. This cat loves to climb up on
top of a 6-foot HP rack and dangle over the top edge,
occationally batting at the LEDs on the
front pannel of a HP2113 when it runs a 'Cylon'
blinky-light idel loop.
It's the catnip they always used in their manuals and
plastic parts? ;)
Tony Duell wrote:
>> OK. But if you have a cat, watch out for the cat
>> detector van from the
>> Ministry of Ousing.
>>
> That's 'Ministry of Housinge' in the scripts....
> And, FWIW, I have access to a cat. A neighbours cat who
> loves HP stuff (I
> kid you not, he will pick a pile of HP manuals to sleep
> on if he gets the
> chance). Cats are the only creatures who are allowed to
> knock parts off
> my workbench without getting flamed :-)
> -tony
>
6:09 a.m.
On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Bob Shannon wrote:
Strange,
I've got a cat who also loves HP manuals, and old HP hardware too. This
cat loves to climb up on
top of a 6-foot HP rack and dangle over the top edge, occationally
batting at the LEDs on the
front pannel of a HP2113 when it runs a 'Cylon' blinky-light idel loop.
Mine is a Big Blue fan. She'll try to climb _into_ my 7013-560 if I
run it without the side panels. Likes to cuddle up to the 43P, too.
She seems to enjoy the [slightly off-topic] Indigo2, too.
I used to think it was just the vibes from the big fans, but the BA123
and the BA23s don't interest her at all.
Doc
11:16 a.m.
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27 Aug
27 Aug
1:07 a.m.
Hi,
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said:
HAs this now officially been changed? The authorities have tried to claim
this for many years, but the license documents say otherwise ('a license
for establishing a TV receiving station' or something like that).
"...to install or use any equipment to receive televeision programme
services..."
"Install" has been taken in court to mean "have available for use".
Computer TV cards are covered as well...as are VCRs, if fitted with
a tuner. AFAIK the situation with broadcast tv over the internet
has not been resolved yet. Amateur TV is exempt, even for non-hams
- the licence only applies to broadcast TV.
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
Now, a TV set used as a computer monitor doesn't
need a license, but it
can be difficult to convince the authorities that you don't use it to
watch TV as well.
Unfortunately, the licence now applies if you have equipment capable of
receiving TV transmissions, regardless of the purpose for which it used, so
you can try to convince the authorities all you like...
1:04 p.m.
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5 p.m.
New subject: Way OT: Crazy Brits! ;-) & Amateur TV (was: These darned old computers
At 01:19 08/28/2002 +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
[[ Bewarned: this is a multinational email... I'm responding to a UK post
I cannot speak for the UK frequency laws [obviously] but as a US-licensed
Amateur Extra (AB8KK) and an ISP owner who uses *unlicensed* 2.4GHz
frequencies to deliver 11Mbit ethernet for Internet connectivity I can say
that to transmit _on the amateur [read: ham] bands_ you need to have the
appropriate license. However, if there are any non-licensed areas of the
spectrum, you wouldn't need a license to broadcast provided you met the
frequency & power requirements of those unlicensed bands. Lemme tell ya,
11Mbit is more than enough bandwidth to xmit TV signals, and at least in
the US, there are also unlicensed 5.2GHz bands which provide even more
bandwidth...
And there, friends, is my off-topic post of the day... at least until I get
*my* 2.4GHz Internet link... because the first thing going on that is my
VAX... ;-)
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
P.S. A few years ago, I moaned when Michigan state tax went from 4% to
6%... altho that's more for the mathematical reasons than monetary... (5%
is much easier on the noggin for a store owner) and I always felt sorry for
my Ontario neighbours with a combined tax of 15%... [ IIRC, which I'm sure
I don't: 8% Ont. Provincial tax & 7% GST...) Now I see even *they* don't
have it quite so bad... :-/
from the USA while drinking *too much* Canadian beer...
bewarned... ;^> ]]
[snip]
This is where lawyers have fun (and run up big
bills...)
Well, at least we have that in common on both sides of the pond... ;-/
Incidetnally, the licensing authorities have claimed
that all VCRs need a
colour license because all VCRs record in colour. I actually asked them
what license is needed for a Philips N1500 (very early domestic VCR) with
the colour killer switch soldered in the 'on' position so that it records
only in black-and-white. They didn't know....
Weirder & weirder... You mean that if any Brits wish to receive only B&W
broadcasts [and have the hardware to prove it], the tax levy is different
than color??? After almost 40 years of color TV technology, they still
carry a monochrome (more accurately: grayscale ;-) license?
Whoa!!! Just when I thought the only the only thing I learned today was
"Linux RPM's Suck..." ;-)
a tuner.
AFAIK the situation with broadcast tv over the internet
has not been resolved yet. Amateur TV is exempt, even for non-hams
- the licence only applies to broadcast TV.
That's odd. They told me that to receive amateur television you either
needed an amateur license or a broadcast TV license. But that you
couldn't do so (legally) with no license at all.
28 Aug
28 Aug
10:18 a.m.
New subject: Way OT: Crazy Brits! ;-) & Amateur TV (was: These darned old computers
The 8% sales and 7% services tax applies (not to food-stuff and childrens
goods) just about in all provinces. I believe only in fundamentalist, oil-rich
Alberta is the sales tax not required.
When it was first brought in it was supposedly a temporary measure (Sure,
just like income tax when it was introduced in the 20's) and the present
government at one time campaigned on a promise to repeal it.
IIRC Canada also had a radio license tax in the 30s. It originally funded CBC
At present CBC-Radio is still ad-free but CBC-TV isn't. It has continually
come under attack and eviscerated by governments unhappy at it's content
unfettered by government and corporate (advertising) control and is now a
shadow of it's forrmer self.
A couple of the newest licensing wrinkles is a gun control one ( there has
long been a required one for handguns and how many banks are held up with
shotguns ?) and in Manitoba, a boating license, which has just about driven
most fishing lodges out of business. On these points I agree with our right-
wing neighbors in the US. It's more than just income, it's about control.
Lawrence
At 01:19 08/28/2002 +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
[[ Bewarned: this is a multinational email... I'm responding to a UK post
from the USA while drinking *too much* Canadian beer... bewarned... ;^> ]]
[snip]
I cannot speak for the UK frequency laws [obviously]
but as a US-licensed
Amateur Extra (AB8KK) and an ISP owner who uses *unlicensed* 2.4GHz
frequencies to deliver 11Mbit ethernet for Internet connectivity I can say that
to transmit _on the amateur [read: ham] bands_ you need to have the appropriate
license. However, if there are any non-licensed areas of the spectrum, you
wouldn't need a license to broadcast provided you met the frequency & power
requirements of those unlicensed bands. Lemme tell ya, 11Mbit is more than
enough bandwidth to xmit TV signals, and at least in the US, there are also
unlicensed 5.2GHz bands which provide even more bandwidth...
And there, friends, is my off-topic post of the day... at least until I get *my*
2.4GHz Internet link... because the first thing going on that is my VAX... ;-)
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
P.S. A few years ago, I moaned when Michigan state tax went from 4% to
6%... altho that's more for the mathematical reasons than monetary... (5%
is much easier on the noggin for a store owner) and I always felt sorry for my
Ontario neighbours with a combined tax of 15%... [ IIRC, which I'm sure I don't:
8% Ont. Provincial tax & 7% GST...) Now I see even *they* don't have it quite so
bad... :-/
lgwalker(a)mts.net
bigwalk_ca(a)yahoo.com
11:13 a.m.
New subject: Way OT: Crazy Brits! ;-) & Amateur TV (was: These darned old
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12:07 p.m.
New subject: Way OT: Crazy Brits! ;-) & Amateur TV (was: These darned old
Tony Duell wrote:
So if you watch your TV on an RGB monitor and promise to
disconnect the Green, do you get a 1/3 discount? :)
-- Ross
Weirder & weirder... You mean that if any
Brits wish to receive only B&W
broadcasts [and have the hardware to prove it], the tax levy is different
than color??? After almost 40 years of color TV technology, they still
YEs, it's _a lot_ less (about 1/3rd of the colour license IIRC).
12:36 p.m.
New subject: Way OT: Crazy Brits! ;-) & Amateur TV (was: These darned old
Ross Archer wrote:
Tony Duell wrote:
So if you watch your TV on an RGB monitor and promise to
disconnect the Green, do you get a 1/3 discount? :)
-- Ross
no ... you disconnect the red and blue. Green is left for the 3 inch
scope tube you are using. :)
Weirder
& weirder... You mean that if any Brits wish to receive only B&W
broadcasts [and have the hardware to prove it], the tax levy is different
than color??? After almost 40 years of color TV technology, they still
YEs, it's _a lot_ less (about 1/3rd of the colour license IIRC).
12:55 p.m.
New subject: Way OT: Crazy Brits! ;-) & Amateur TV (was: These darned old
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8:01 a.m.
Hi,
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said:
I said:
> a tuner. AFAIK the situation with broadcast tv over the internet
> has not been resolved yet. Amateur TV is exempt, even for non-hams
> - the licence only applies to broadcast TV.
That's odd. They told me that to receive amateur
television you either
needed an amateur license or a broadcast TV license. But that you
couldn't do so (legally) with no license at all.
I was going by an article I read in a ham radio mag a few years ago.
However, this could be a complicated issue :-)
The general public is allowed, I think, to receive transmisions from
radio amateurs without any licence, but I don't know if tv is
specifically mentioned, or excluded. According to the back of my
tv licence the licence is _specifically_ for equipment for receiving
television programmes. As amateurs are forbidden to broadcast as such,
and may only direct transmissions to a specific station or stations,
I would argue that their transmissions constitute communications, not
programmes. However this is the sort of thing lawers love to argue
about. I suspect that once again we have an issue where if you ask
two different officials you'll get two different answers!
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
25 Aug
25 Aug
9:19 a.m.
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4:07 a.m.
--- Gary Hildebrand <ghldbrd(a)ccp.com> wrote:
Ben Franchuk wrote:
Presuming your question is not sarcastic (didn't see any smileys),
Big Blue was known as that a long time before the PeeCee. It
was their practice of reassigning people from facility to facility
enough to be intrusive. I don't have numbers, but I have heard
stories from folks about working in multiple cities over their
careers.
-ethan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com
Look at the PC -- crap with a big blue name.
Is that how IBM came to be known as I've Been Moved?
5:12 a.m.
On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote:
Sellam Ismail wrote:
No it can't. Some computers of that era were much better made than
others. Some were complete shit, cobbled together with whatever parts
came down the supply chain that week.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
True, but that doesn't excuse RS for making the CoCo2 so cut-rate.
The same
can be said of all the computers that came out in that era.
Look at the PC -- crap with a big blue name.
7912
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116 comments
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-
als＠thangorodrim.de -
archer＠topnow.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
bshannon＠tiac.net -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
clascmp＠highgate.comm.sfu.ca -
cmcnabb＠4mcnabb.net -
curt＠atari-history.com -
dave＠naffnet.org.uk -
dittman＠dittman.net -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
donm＠cts.com -
erd_6502＠yahoo.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au -
ghldbrd＠ccp.com -
jamesl＠bestweb.net -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jhellige＠earthlink.net -
lgwalker＠mts.net -
meltie＠myrealbox.com -
pat＠purdueriots.com -
pcw＠mesanet.com -
philpem＠dsl.pipex.com -
red＠bears.org -
spectre＠stockholm.ptloma.edu -
stanb＠dial.pipex.com -
tlindner＠ix.netcom.com -
tony.eros＠machm.org -
tractorb＠ihug.co.nz -
vaxzilla＠jarai.org -
zmerch＠30below.com