19 Apr
2005
19 Apr
'05
4:06 a.m.
On Apr 18 2005, 19:57, Ethan Dicks wrote:
On 4/18/05, Dave Dunfield <dave04a at
dunfield.com> wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
> I was just contacted by a guy asking if I have any info on this
> computer called "Jupiter J12":
>
> http://www.geocities.com/australianvintcomp/Jupiter/Jupiter.html
That sure looks like Qbus fingers on those boards...
it would be odd
to copy DEC's proportions and not their bus logic, but that's
entirely
possible.
With a 68010 CPU, that screams "UNIX" to me (the differences between
the 68000 and 68010 make virtual memory implementation practical.
That's what Cadmus (German CAD systems producer) did with their 680x0
boards; they fit in a normal QBus chassis, use standard QBus
peripherals, and run UNIX. I've never owed one, but I've (briefly)
used them.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
19 Apr
19 Apr
4:22 a.m.
On 4/19/05, Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.u-net.com> wrote:
That's what Cadmus (German CAD systems producer)
did with their 680x0
boards; they fit in a normal QBus chassis, use standard QBus
peripherals, and run UNIX. I've never owed one, but I've (briefly)
used them.
Perfect... exactly what I was thinking of. It'd be superb to load
into one of the three 9-slot Qbus backplanes I have in this former
CompuServe X.25 node chassis (RT-11 on an F-11 chip would be another
typical example to show off).
-ethan
4:46 a.m.
New subject: VAX-11/730
Hello everybody. I'm in the process to obtain one VAX-11/730. In appeareance
in working condition. I'm only waiting to know if it comes in "tower"
format
with a couple of RL02 units or not. Having this last in mind, I would agree
comments about the possible expansion of the system with other options: storage
(9-track unit(s) or Disks in SMD or SCSI format), memory, connectivity (serial
and network ports, signal control ports), etc. If I remember well this machine
only had Unibus and not Massbus.
Documentation about the system printed or downloadable would be agreed too.
Thanks and Greetings
Sergio
5:14 a.m.
New subject: VAX-11/730
On 4/19/05, spedraja at ono.com <spedraja at ono.com> wrote:
Hello everybody. I'm in the process to obtain one
VAX-11/730. In appeareance
in working condition. I'm only waiting to know if it comes in "tower"
format
with a couple of RL02 units or not. Having this last in mind, I would agree
comments about the possible expansion of the system with other options: storage
(9-track unit(s) or Disks in SMD or SCSI format), memory, connectivity (serial
and network ports, signal control ports), etc. If I remember well this machine
only had Unibus and not Massbus.
There were two styles of 11/730, one with the CPU in the middle of a
42" cabinet in its own 10.5"-tall drawer, and disks above and below
(the most common configuration was an RL02 on top and an RB80 (121MB
pseudo-SMD drive) underneath), and one with, IIRC, a BA-11-type drawer
at the top of a 42" cabinet, and cable management space below (and no
disks in the CPU cabinet). I used to have one of the first type, and
have never seen the second type except in pictures.
The 11/730-Z (first type) has a backplane limited to 5MB of RAM, with
room for a couple of other internal peripherals. A common add-on was
a DMF-32 (8 async, 1 sync, 1 printer). The RL02 and RB80 were run
from a special disk card in slot 1, and appear to VMS
as DQA0: and
DQA1:. The machine is Unibus-only, and it _is_ possible to run a
Unibus cable out and to an ordinary BA-11 with DD11-DK backplanes and
the like.
Being Unibus, one can attach 3rd party ESDI, SMD, and SCSI
controllers, but I dare say you'll have quite a time locating an
inexpensive Unibus SCSI controller. It can talk to a DEUNA or DELUA
Ethernet interface, but either of those might draw too much power to
mount internally. Same goes for a UDA-50. The only compatibilty
issue is power draw. If you have an external BA-11, you are good to go
for these power hogs.
You'll need a boot cartridge with this - just like the VAX-11/780
powers up stupid, the 11/730 does as well. Where the 780 has a PDP-11
processor that loads up microcode and boot images and whatnot from an
RX01 floppy, the 730 has an 8085 that loads things up from TU-58 tape.
Check your tape drives for gooey capstans. If the rubber seems like
it's melting or turning into something that resembles a black
jellybean, do *not* mount tapes. You will have to refurb the drive
first. Tygon aquarium hose from the hardware store (.500"?) works
well for this. Your boot tape has to match the OS you'll be running -
there were tapes for VMS and tapes for Ultrix. I presume there were
also tapes for BSD, but I only ever ran BSD on 11/750s, not 11/730s.
The 11/730 (and 11/725) CPU rivals the MicroVAX-I for slowness (one is
30% as fast as a 780, one is 40% as fast), but is a solid machine. We
used to use ours at work first for an office machine (MASS-11 and VMS
MAIL) for a satellite operation, and later for a VMS 5.0 link machine
for software development. It would run for months at a time without
problem. The max memory is a bit limiting; I would be surprised if
you could run VMS 6.x on it, but I know VMS 5.0 runs. It was
developed in the days where 2MB-3MB would suffice for a system with a
small number of users, and was more-or-less rendered obsolete with the
coming of the MicroVAX-II about 4 years later, with up to 16MB of RAM,
a faster processor, 5.25" disks, and a much smaller box (but not a
much smaller price tag, only slightly smaller).
Good luck with it. If you want to play with a Unibus VAX, it's the
second smallest one, and not bad for a single-user VMS 4 or VMS 5
system.
Hope some of this helps,
-ethan
7:38 a.m.
New subject: Asunto: Re: VAX-11/730
Thanks, Ethan. This information is helpful by now.
Cheers
Sergio
-- Mensaje original --
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 05:14:06 -0400
From: Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: VAX-11/730
Reply-To: Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>,
"General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
On 4/19/05, spedraja at ono.com <spedraja at ono.com> wrote:
> Hello everybody. I'm in the process to obtain one VAX-11/730. In appeareance
> in working condition. I'm only waiting to know if it comes in "tower"
format
> with a couple of RL02 units or not. Having this
last in mind, I would
agree
comments about
the possible expansion of the system with other options:
storage
(9-track unit(s) or Disks in SMD or SCSI format),
memory, connectivity
(serial
and network ports, signal control ports), etc. If
I remember well this
machine
only had Unibus and not Massbus.
There were two styles of 11/730, one with the CPU in the middle of a
42" cabinet in its own 10.5"-tall drawer, and disks above and below
(the most common configuration was an RL02 on top and an RB80 (121MB
pseudo-SMD drive) underneath), and one with, IIRC, a BA-11-type drawer
at the top of a 42" cabinet, and cable management space below (and no
disks in the CPU cabinet). I used to have one of the first type, and
have never seen the second type except in pictures.
The 11/730-Z (first type) has a backplane limited to 5MB of RAM, with
room for a couple of other internal peripherals. A common add-on was
a DMF-32 (8 async, 1 sync, 1 printer). The RL02 and RB80 were run
from a special disk card in slot 1, and appear to VMS as DQA0: and
DQA1:. The machine is Unibus-only, and it _is_ possible to run a
Unibus cable out and to an ordinary BA-11 with DD11-DK backplanes and
the like.
Being Unibus, one can attach 3rd party ESDI, SMD, and SCSI
controllers, but I dare say you'll have quite a time locating an
inexpensive Unibus SCSI controller. It can talk to a DEUNA or DELUA
Ethernet interface, but either of those might draw too much power to
mount internally. Same goes for a UDA-50. The only compatibilty
issue is power draw. If you have an external BA-11, you are good to go
for these power hogs.
You'll need a boot cartridge with this - just like the VAX-11/780
powers up stupid, the 11/730 does as well. Where the 780 has a PDP-11
processor that loads up microcode and boot images and whatnot from an
RX01 floppy, the 730 has an 8085 that loads things up from TU-58 tape.
Check your tape drives for gooey capstans. If the rubber seems like
it's melting or turning into something that resembles a black
jellybean, do *not* mount tapes. You will have to refurb the drive
first. Tygon aquarium hose from the hardware store (.500"?) works
well for this. Your boot tape has to match the OS you'll be running -
there were tapes for VMS and tapes for Ultrix. I presume there were
also tapes for BSD, but I only ever ran BSD on 11/750s, not 11/730s.
The 11/730 (and 11/725) CPU rivals the MicroVAX-I for slowness (one is
30% as fast as a 780, one is 40% as fast), but is a solid machine. We
used to use ours at work first for an office machine (MASS-11 and VMS
MAIL) for a satellite operation, and later for a VMS 5.0 link machine
for software development. It would run for months at a time without
problem. The max memory is a bit limiting; I would be surprised if
you could run VMS 6.x on it, but I know VMS 5.0 runs. It was
developed in the days where 2MB-3MB would suffice for a system with a
small number of users, and was more-or-less rendered obsolete with the
coming of the MicroVAX-II about 4 years later, with up to 16MB of RAM,
a faster processor, 5.25" disks, and a much smaller box (but not a
much smaller price tag, only slightly smaller).
Good luck with it. If you want to play with a Unibus VAX, it's the
second smallest one, and not bad for a single-user VMS 4 or VMS 5
system.
Hope some of this helps,
-ethan
6:48 p.m.
New subject: VAX-11/730
The 11/730 (and 11/725) CPU rivals the MicroVAX-I for
slowness (one is
30% as fast as a 780, one is 40% as fast), but is a solid machine. We
It has one other advantage for people like me. It's one of only 2 series
of VAXen (the other being the 11/780 + derivatives) that is built from
standard chips. The 11/730 is mostly non-protected PALs, AMD2901s, etc.
OK, there are _2_ custom chips, the ECC correcting logic IIRC, but most
of it is hackable.
If you don't have space for an 11/780, then the 11/730 (and its brother
the 11/725) is about the only choice for a hardware hacker.
-tony
8:49 p.m.
New subject: VAX-11/730
I've been wondering about the possibility of hacking one of the memory
boards
- say from 16 to 64K drams or 64 to 256K. Is the microcode the limitation
or memory controller/physical constraints/powersupply?
8 megs on my 725 would lovely...
h
The 11/730
(and 11/725) CPU rivals the MicroVAX-I for slowness (one is
30% as fast as a 780, one is 40% as fast), but is a solid machine. We
It has one other advantage for people like me. It's one of only 2 series
of VAXen (the other being the 11/780 + derivatives) that is built from
standard chips. The 11/730 is mostly non-protected PALs, AMD2901s, etc.
OK, there are _2_ custom chips, the ECC correcting logic IIRC, but most
of it is hackable.
If you don't have space for an 11/780, then the 11/730 (and its brother
the 11/725) is about the only choice for a hardware hacker.
-tony
6:45 p.m.
New subject: VAX-11/730
Hello everybody. I'm in the process to obtain one VAX-11/730. In appeareance
in working condition. I'm only waiting to know if it comes in "tower"
format
with a couple of RL02 units or not. Having this last in mind, I would agree
The 11/730 CPU is, IIRC, 3 hex-height boards, with another board for the
Integrated Disk Cotnroller (IDC). Typically, they fitted into a 10.5"
rackmount box, with slots for memory and a couple of Unibus devices, a
PSU, and a TU58. The 11/730 loads its CPU microcode from a TU58 cartridge
at power-on.
The IDC supoorts the RL02 (AFAIK the RL01 is not supported, but I can't
see how the hardware couldn't handle it), and the R80. The R80 is a
120-ish Meg Winchester with an interface which is just far enough from
SMD to give SMD hackers headaches!
The normal configurations seem to be :
A rack containing the CPU _only_, with the TU58 cartridge tape drive
under it, both drivs accessible from the front of the rack. You need a
second rack for disks, etc. Actually, I've never seen that one.
A rack containg the CPU box, with one TU58 cartridge on the front of the
CPU and one round the side. The latter is the one it loads the microcode
from, the idea being you leave the microcode tape in there, you don't
really need to change it very often. Under the CPU box is an R80
Winchester, on top is an RL02
Much the same, but with a TS05 (Cipher F880) 9-track mag-tape drive in
place of the RL02, and a TSU05 controller in one of the Unibus slots.
comments about the possible expansion of the system
with other options: storage
(9-track unit(s) or Disks in SMD or SCSI format), memory, connectivity (serial
and network ports, signal control ports), etc. If I remember well this machine
only had Unibus and not Massbus.
Yes, Unibus only (I suppose you could add an RH11 Massbus interface, but
it wouldn't handle the higher-speed Massbus devices). You should be able
to add 3rd party Unibus controllers for SMD or SCSI (but the latter will
be darn expensive). You could also add a UDA50 and hang some RA-series
drives off it.
There are 2 serial ports (Console and Remote Diagnostics) built into the
CPU. You can add things like the DZ11 if you want more.
You should be able to add a DEUNA or DELUA for ethernet.
I am not sure how much spare capacity there is on the CPU power supply.
You may well need an external BA11 mounting box for some of those boards.
Documentation about the system printed or downloadable would be agreed too.
I am _still_ looking for the CPU board printset... I don't think it's on
bitsavers.
-tony
10:44 p.m.
New subject: VAX-11/730
On 4/19/05, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
The 11/730 CPU... normal configurations seem to be :
A rack containing the CPU _only_, with the TU58 cartridge tape drive
under it, both drivs accessible from the front of the rack. You need a
second rack for disks, etc. Actually, I've never seen that one.
That's the one I haven't seen either. I'd be curious to find if
there's room in the CPU bay for a DD11-DK or two.
A rack containg the CPU box, with one TU58 cartridge
on the front of the
CPU and one round the side...
Much the same, but with a TS05 (Cipher F880) 9-track mag-tape drive in
place of the RL02, and a TSU05 controller in one of the Unibus slots.
Ah... I'd forgotten about that configuration, but I don't think it was
very common. A TU80 alongside was somewhat common.
There are 2 serial ports (Console and Remote
Diagnostics) built into the
CPU. You can add things like the DZ11 if you want more.
There's room in the I/O bulkheads for a DMF-32 (8 async, 1 sync, 1
printer), and IIRC, it was somewhat common.
I am not sure how much spare capacity there is on the
CPU power supply.
You may well need an external BA11 mounting box for some of those boards.
I personally wouldn't try to run 5 memory boards, and a full Unibus if
that Unibus was trying to power a DEUNA/DELUA or a UDA50 without first
calculating _exact_ DC consumption. I've loaded the memory bus and
the Unibus, but not with such power-hungry devices.
I am _still_ looking for the CPU board printset... I
don't think it's on
bitsavers.
Hmm... I had no idea. I have a several-inch-thick stack of prints for
the 11/730-Z (the configuration we've been discussing)... I know it
covers cable runs (which are quite intricate in that box), and it
_may_ have CPU board prints; I'll have to check.
-ethan
20 Apr
20 Apr
4:42 p.m.
New subject: VAX-11/730
Upon the date 22:44 19-04-05, Ethan Dicks said something like:
Ohhhh, I would like a copy of any 11/730 docs you may find!
The only things on bitsavers is a field maint printset for the assembly of
a variant of the 730 called the Config. Pkg 76. Has a few useful bits in
there on the mechanicals and cable connections but no schemas or suchlike.
Also there is a 107 page Installation Guide which has a bunch of useful
general info including a list of documentation relative to the 11/730 found
on page 1-4.
My machine is the 11/730 SBB pictured on page 1-3. Lacking is an available
mass storage cabinet but I would like to shortcut the system size and find
a small hard disk to mount internally and an appropriate controller board
(not SCSI - I cannot afford another mortgage on this house:-\ ) which would
allow me to run VMS 5.5 that I have on hand or at least whichever one of
the *BSD versions that have been ported to the 730.
Mounting a 5 1/4" or even a 3 1/2" hard disk inside the cabinet (or even
the BA-11 itself) would be just ducky since there is very little room to
spare around this house. Who's been thinking further on an IDE/Unibus
interface over the past couple of months?? Qbus too?
Regards, Chris F.
NNNN
Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/
On 4/19/05, Tony Duell <ard at
p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> The 11/730 CPU... normal configurations seem to be :
--snip--
I am _still_
looking for the CPU board printset... I don't think it's on
bitsavers.
Hmm... I had no idea. I have a several-inch-thick stack of prints for
the 11/730-Z (the configuration we've been discussing)... I know it
covers cable runs (which are quite intricate in that box), and it
_may_ have CPU board prints; I'll have to check.
7:17 p.m.
New subject: VAX-11/730
Much the same,
but with a TS05 (Cipher F880) 9-track mag-tape drive in
place of the RL02, and a TSU05 controller in one of the Unibus slots.
Ah... I'd forgotten about that configuration, but I don't think it was
very common. A TU80 alongside was somewhat common. There are 2 serial ports (Console and Remote
Diagnostics) built into the
CPU. You can add things like the DZ11 if you want more.
There's room in the I/O bulkheads for a DMF-32 (8 async, 1 sync, 1
printer), and IIRC, it was somewhat common. 
11:04 p.m.
New subject: VAX-11/730
On Wednesday 20 April 2005 18:17, Tony Duell wrote:
My 11/730 came with a BA11 10.5" expansion box
(BA11-K IIRC). It
contained a DMF32, and something else which I forget. There was a
little card in the Unibus Out slot of the CPU backplane that linked
to the bulkhead with 3 ribbon cables, That took a flat screened cable
with 3 connectors on each end that went to a similar bulkhead on the
expansion rack, then 3 more ribbon cables to the Unibus In slot of
the first backplane in the BA11.
That small 3-connector card for UNIBUS in/out is the same as what is
used on an 11/780, to connect the DW780 to a BA11, FYI.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
1:56 p.m.
New subject: VAX-11/730
Tony Duell wrote:
I am _still_ looking for the CPU board printset... I
don't
think it's on bitsavers.
The one I scanned is here:
http://vt100.net/mirror/antonio/11730z1.pdf
I borrowed it to scan from someone so I no longer have
the paper version. I *think* it is a reasonably complete
printset for the CPU.
Antonio
--
---------------
Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org
7:35 p.m.
New subject: VAX-11/730
The one I scanned is here:
http://vt100.net/mirror/antonio/11730z1.pdf
I borrowed it to scan from someone so I no longer have
the paper version. I *think* it is a reasonably complete
printset for the CPU.
From what I could see, the schematics for the 3 main
CPU boards, the
TU58, PSU, etc are there. So is the memory board. The IDC
didn't seem to
be, which is a pity. Oh well. It will certainly cut down the work I'll have
to do to get my 11/730 running.
-tony
7058
days inactive
7060
days old
13 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
a.carlini＠ntlworld.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cfandt＠netsync.net -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
h.wolter＠sympatico.ca -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
pete＠dunnington.u-net.com -
spedraja＠ono.com