9 Aug
2010
9 Aug
'10
5:42 p.m.
Well, I am stumped here. I have been fighting with this for a while and I can't figure
it out...
I use an old Needham's PB-10 EPROM programmer. Best device programmer ever, as far as
I'm concerned. It's fast, reliable, and the software is so nice and easy to use.
Only problem - it's old, and doesn't support 16 bit devices. I really need to be
able to program 27c160 and 27c322 devices.
So, I built an adapter. I bought a 16bit adapter intended for those cheap and nasty Willem
programmers. I made some minor modifications to use it with my Needhams, and added toggle
switches for the upper address lines. Now, I can program larger devices in chunks. This
worked perfectly for the couple of chips I had at the time - two 27c160's and two
27c800's.
So, I bought more chips. 27c160's and 27c322's. The 27c322's work flawlessly.
I can program them in four passes, the programmer thinks it's programming a 27c080.
But 27c160s... I am having horrible luck with them. A couple out of the batch programmed.
The rest did not. I was able to fill them with zeroes, but couldn't program data - it
kept erroring out at various stages. Tried erasing/reburning, same thing. Finally got fed
up and bought another batch from a different seller, assuming I just had some bad ones.
Nope. SAME problem. I noticed a pattern:
On chips with a date code before about 2000, the die is larger, and none of these want to
program. On chips with a date code after 2000, the die is smaller, and some of them
program perfectly, others get most of the way through before erroring out.
In all cases, I'm working with ST brand chips - I haven't found any other
manufacturer available.
So, carefully reading the datasheet, I notice that the 27c160 wants a program pulse of
50us. The chip that the programmer thinks it's programming, a 27c040, uses a
programming pulse of 100ns. The programming waveforms between a 27c160 and a 27c040 look
the same to me, besides that. But it would seem that my problems lie with the waveform
being incorrect, and newer chips being less picky about it than the older chips of the
same part number.
Now, I'm stumped. I *really* want to make this programmer program these chips. It does
everything else properly, including program 27c322's with this adapter. Now, I know
the adapter is wired correctly, because I have programmed newer rev 27c160's properly,
and they have worked perfectly in their intended purpose. The adapter is wired up such
that in 27c322 mode, the programmer is used as if it were a 27c080, and in 27c160 mode the
programmer is used as if it were a 27c040. I did it this way due to the pinouts of the
devices and the required programming algorithms.
Basically, I am wondering if any of our resident gurus have seen behavior like this with
EPROMs, and if there may be anything I can do to shorten pulses, buffer, or something to
get this to program... or, if anyone just *happens* to have the source code to the EMP
software laying around somewhere...
Yeah, I know, long shot.
Failing that, does anyone have a suggestion of an EPROM programmer that I can buy that
will program 27c160's. Preferably something that can be operated from DOS over a
parallel or serial port, or better yet, an ISA card.
-Ian
9 Aug
9 Aug
6:39 p.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
Hi
I just got a old SparcBook Tadpole.
I checked on the web and all they have is info
about newer models ( like G3 and G3S ).
This one is old. Weighs a ton. and has a small LCD
screen.
The batteries have failed and they look like they are
most likely NiCads. The pack says 12V and it has 12
cells. I'd think that NiMetalHydride would have fewer
cells.
It needs a little internal cleaning but boots without
the battery.
The next problem is that I don't have the password.
I'm wondering if there is a way to clear the password
files from openboot so that I can log on as root?
Dwight
7:51 p.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
On 8/9/10 9:39 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
I just got a old SparcBook Tadpole.
That would be "Tadpole SparcBook". =) Nice score! I used a 3GS for
years, back when they were new. Good, solid, fast machines with nice
bright displays.
I checked on the web and all they have is info
about newer models ( like G3 and G3S ).
The 3G and 3GS are basically SPARCstation-5s in laptop form-factors,
if memory serves. Sun4m architecture. If yours predates those, it'll
be a SPARCstation-1/1+/2 processor, which is sun4c architecture. Both
are 32-bit.
This one is old. Weighs a ton. and has a small LCD
screen.
The batteries have failed and they look like they are
most likely NiCads. The pack says 12V and it has 12
cells. I'd think that NiMetalHydride would have fewer
cells.
Both NiCd and NiMH chemistries have nominal cell voltages of 1.2V.
It needs a little internal cleaning but boots
without
the battery.
The next problem is that I don't have the password.
I'm wondering if there is a way to clear the password
files from openboot so that I can log on as root?
What OS is it booting? A lot of what we do will be determined by
that. It's likely SunOS 4.x, probably 4.1.x. Please find out for sure.
Then...If you can get to an OpenBoot prompt, you can type "boot -s" to
boot into single-user mode. That should get you straight to a root
shell if it's running the earlier BSD-based SunOS 4.x. Let me know
when/if you can get that far, then I'll help you through getting rid of
the root password.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
9:36 p.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
On 8/9/10 9:39 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
There is a CD ROM with it with Solaris 1.0.1. I 'm not sure if that
is what is in it though. I'll have to check. It doesn't have a CD ROM drive
or floppy but does have one of those Sun connectors on the back
that could go to a drive.
I just got a old SparcBook Tadpole.
That would be "Tadpole SparcBook". =) Nice score! I used a 3GS for
years, back when they were new. Good, solid, fast machines with nice
bright displays.
I checked on the web and all they have is info
about newer models ( like G3 and G3S ).
The 3G and 3GS are basically SPARCstation-5s in laptop form-factors,
if memory serves. Sun4m architecture. If yours predates those, it'll
be a SPARCstation-1/1+/2 processor, which is sun4c architecture. Both
are 32-bit.
This one is old. Weighs a ton. and has a small
LCD
screen.
The batteries have failed and they look like they are
most likely NiCads. The pack says 12V and it has 12
cells. I'd think that NiMetalHydride would have fewer
cells.
Both NiCd and NiMH chemistries have nominal cell voltages of 1.2V.
It needs a little internal cleaning but boots
without
the battery.
The next problem is that I don't have the password.
I'm wondering if there is a way to clear the password
files from openboot so that I can log on as root?
What OS is it booting? A lot of what we do will be determined by
that. It's likely SunOS 4.x, probably 4.1.x. Please find out for sure.
Then...If you can get to an OpenBoot prompt, you can type "boot -s" to
boot into single-user mode. That should get you straight to a root
shell if it's running the earlier BSD-based SunOS 4.x. Let me know
when/if you can get that far, then I'll help you through getting rid of
the root password.
I think I can get OpenBoot with just the pause-A as described on the
web pages.
It says it is a model s1. It doesn't look like any of the 3Gs I've seen
on the web. It is older LCD technology. About 10 years old. Maybe
from around the time of a Sparc5 or so.
I'm
not a Unix heavy so I've no idea what to do once I boot to
root?? Can I use passwrd or some such to reset the password?
I guess I'll have to learn a little.
I don't want to power it up too much with battery crystals floating
around in it.
It has a flakey keyboard but I hope it just needs a little cleaning.
It looks like carbon button type but I'll have to see when I open it up.
Dwight
11:38 p.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
On 8/10/10 12:36 AM, dwight elvey wrote:
Is it a standard 50-pin SCSI-2 connector?
Solaris 1.0.1 is SunOS 4.1.2. The last of that series is 4.1.4_U1.
This is BSD-based SunOS.
Yes, that's pretty standard interrupt key sequence for Sun machines.
On a Sun keyboard, it would be "Stop" or "L1" (upper left key) plus
"A".
The standard OpenBoot prompt is "ok ".
What OS is it
booting? A lot of what we do will be determined by
that. It's likely SunOS 4.x, probably 4.1.x. Please find out for sure.
There is a CD ROM with it with Solaris 1.0.1. I 'm not sure if that
is what is in it though. I'll have to check. It doesn't have a CD ROM drive
or floppy but does have one of those Sun connectors on the back
that could go to a drive. Then...If you
can get to an OpenBoot prompt, you can type "boot -s" to
boot into single-user mode. That should get you straight to a root
shell if it's running the earlier BSD-based SunOS 4.x. Let me know
when/if you can get that far, then I'll help you through getting rid of
the root password.
I think I can get OpenBoot with just the pause-A as described on the
web pages. It says it is a model s1. It doesn't look like
any of the 3Gs I've seen
on the web. It is older LCD technology. About 10 years old. Maybe
from around the time of a Sparc5 or so.
I was using a 3GS (SPARCstation-5) in probably 1998 or so. The
S1...Hmm, there's something weird about the S1/S2 machines but I don't
recall what, and I don't recall where they fell in the line. I'll see
if I can jog my memory a bit.
I'm not a Unix heavy so I've no idea what to
do once I boot to
root?? Can I use passwrd or some such to reset the password?
I guess I'll have to learn a little.
You can use the "passwd" command to reset the root password, or you
can edit /etc/passwd directly and zero out the password for root. It's
the second colon-delimited field and it should be thirteen characters
wide. If you go that route, I can tell you what you'll need to do with
the "vi" editor in case nothing easier is installed.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
10 Aug
10 Aug
6:37 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
---snip---
There is a CD ROM with it with Solaris 1.0.1. I 'm not sure if that
is what is in it though. I'll have to check. It doesn't have a CD ROM drive
or floppy but does have one of those Sun connectors on the back
that could go to a drive.
Is it a standard 50-pin SCSI-2 connector?
Solaris 1.0.1 is SunOS 4.1.2. The last of that series is 4.1.4_U1.
This is BSD-based SunOS.
Sounds good.
11 Aug
11 Aug
7:37 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
Hi
With the help of Jim S and Dave McGuire, I got my Spacrbook working.
It does have an issue. It says the clock it not working and needs to be
set. I opened is up to clean any remaining KOH from leaky NiCads
and saw it had one of those MK48T02B chips in it.
I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips
to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales.
There is some on ebay but I don't know if the batteries will
be any good.
I suspect the battery has some life. It still boots with a hostname
and ethernet address but how much longer, who knows.
Dwight
7:51 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking
these chips
to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales.
Easy for us :)
The chip is a plastic box. In this box there is a common chip, and some
batteries on top. Cut the box with a plier and you'll see the batteries, it
is that simple. Change the batteries, and be happy :)
8:29 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com
Hi
Sounds good. So, the SST parts are just a plastic cover. I know the
Dallas parts are potted but one has to know where to grind.
If this is just a cover, a few minutes with a hacksaw blade or
knife should do it.
Dwight
I tried doing a search on google for anyone
hacking these chips
to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales.
Easy for us :)
The chip is a plastic box. In this box there is a common chip, and some
batteries on top. Cut the box with a plier and you'll see the batteries, it
is that simple. Change the batteries, and be happy :)
10 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 7:51 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: SparcBook Tadpole
I recently replaced one of those parts in my Sparcstation Voyager. The part from DigiKey
was only about USD $20, which I figured was a better deal than my time spent grinding and
cutting and splicing.... -- Ian
I tried doing a search on google for anyone
hacking these chips
to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales.
Easy for us :)
The chip is a plastic box. In this box there is a common chip, and
some
batteries on top. Cut the box with a plier and you'll see the
batteries, it
is that simple. Change the batteries, and be happy :)
3:38 p.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
From: IanK at vulcan.com
Hi
My problem is that I don't know if I can restore the information in it.
The early Sparcbooks didn't have openboot. I'm a little worried
about such bringup. There is a fellow on ebay that has these and claims
that the batteries are unused( about $20 plus tax and shipping ).
I have some empty space in the machine. I'd rather use that for
a battery bracket with a standard button cell.
If I had two brackets with small resistors, I could even change batteries
on the fly.
If the case can be poped off, that would be great. If not, I may revert
to the dremel. I can put it in an external socket and power it from
a supply to keep it alive while operating.
I've written down the hostname and ethernet address so it is minimum
risk.
The web page says if the clock doesn't work, replace the chip. I'm
not sure if that is whats wrong. I've not tried to reset the clock yet
to see if it continues to run. I do know that the clock uses more
power than the RAM and may just be the straw that breaks the
NVRAMs back.
Using an old battery device from digikey is just prolonging the
eventual death. If it isn't a current manufacture it is already part dead
when you get it.
Dwight
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 7:51 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: SparcBook Tadpole
I recently replaced one of those parts in my Sparcstation Voyager. The part from DigiKey
was only about USD $20, which I figured was a better deal than my time spent grinding and
cutting and splicing.... -- Ian I tried doing a search on google for anyone
hacking these chips
to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales.
Easy for us :)
The chip is a plastic box. In this box there is a common chip, and
some
batteries on top. Cut the box with a plier and you'll see the
batteries, it
is that simple. Change the batteries, and be happy :)
3:43 p.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight elvey
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 3:39 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: SparcBook Tadpole
But that describes everything we talk about here that uses magtape, disk packs,
7400-series TTL, ASICs, (god help us) ECL, et tedious cetera. Yes, in another few years
my Voyager will have a dead NVRAM again and I may or may not be able to get another chip.
I might not even be able to get a new battery: that's a problem with my Minolta SRT
series SLRs, where the excellent TTL metering doesn't work anymore because it was
designed to be powered by mercury cells that I can't buy anymore.
If you want an appliance, yes, it's important to not let yourself fall too far behind
the curve. But if you're a manly man (or a womanly woman) and seek great adventure
and even greater glory (and perhaps even an advantage with members of the gender of your
choice), you'll geek-up and do what it takes to keep your Olde Beaste running.
BTW, I suspect the reason they said, "If the clock doesn't work, change the
chip" is just because that's the simplest symptom to identify. And there's
lots of info around about how to bring up a new NVRAM. -- Ian
From: IanK at vulcan.com
The part from
DigiKey was only about USD $20, which I figured was a
better deal than my time spent grinding and cutting and splicing.... --
Ian
Hi
My problem is that I don't know if I can restore the information in
it.
The early Sparcbooks didn't have openboot. I'm a little worried
about such bringup. There is a fellow on ebay that has these and claims
that the batteries are unused( about $20 plus tax and shipping ).
I have some empty space in the machine. I'd rather use that for
a battery bracket with a standard button cell.
If I had two brackets with small resistors, I could even change
batteries
on the fly.
If the case can be poped off, that would be great. If not, I may
revert
to the dremel. I can put it in an external socket and power it from
a supply to keep it alive while operating.
I've written down the hostname and ethernet address so it is minimum
risk.
The web page says if the clock doesn't work, replace the chip. I'm
not sure if that is whats wrong. I've not tried to reset the clock yet
to see if it continues to run. I do know that the clock uses more
power than the RAM and may just be the straw that breaks the
NVRAMs back.
Using an old battery device from digikey is just prolonging the
eventual death. If it isn't a current manufacture it is already part
dead
when you get it.
Dwight
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 7:51 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: SparcBook Tadpole
I recently replaced one of those parts in my Sparcstation Voyager. I tried doing a search on google for anyone
hacking these chips
to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales.
Easy for us :)
The chip is a plastic box. In this box there is a common chip, and
some
batteries on top. Cut the box with a plier and you'll see the
batteries, it
is that simple. Change the batteries, and be happy :)
12 Aug
12 Aug
12:22 p.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
But that describes everything we talk about here that
uses magtape, disk pa=
cks, 7400-series TTL, ASICs, (god help us) ECL, et tedious cetera. Yes, in=
True enough :-(
another few years my Voyager will have a dead NVRAM
again and I may or may=
not be able to get another chip. I might not even be able to get a new
battery: that's a problem with my Minolta SRT series SLRs, where the
I think that's unlikey. The voltage is not too critical (it needs to be
between 3-ish ance 5V, I think). I have had success using a couple of AA
cells in series (normal 1.5V Duracells) as a replaemeent for a backup
coil cell in some systems. No, they don't last as long (shelf life is
lower), but they are avaialble _anywhere_.
excellent TTL metering doesn't work anymore
because it was designed to
be powered by mercury cells that I can't buy anymore.
While you can, alas, no longer get mercury batteries, there are plenty of
work-arounds for this. If the STT101 I've just picked up from my pile of
odd cameras is anythign to go by, it takes a single PX13/PX625 cell.
There is an alkaline equivelent that's the same size, but highter
voltage, and I susepct, alas, the Mimnolta meter woudl care about that.
Often connecting a single shottky diode in sereis with the cell will do
the teick, if there's space inside the camera (sorry, I've not pulled the
bottm plate to check), then it's easy to add it. If there isn't space,
then there's a fairly expensive adapterwhich takes a smaller alkanline
cell and includes a series diode. Or you could make soemthing like that.
Or a new battrey cover containing contacts with wires leading to an
external PSU of the right voltage.
If you like, I can take my SRT101 apart and see how the metering system
works..
FWIW, I'v;e never found a classic camera/exposure meter that will be
damed by using the alkaline rather than the mercury cell. It may give
silly readings though. It's worth trying and comparing with a known-good
exposure meter.
Some cameras used bridge circuits for the meters. East German Prakticas
did. As dod at least one of the metering prisms for the Exakta. if the
correct exposure is indicated by the bridge being balanced, then the
battery voltage is irrelevant (within reason), so you cna use the 1.5V
alklaline cell in your MRL3 or whatever without problems
The Pentax Spotmatic is a ridiculous design. it's a bridge alright, but
the correct exposoure is indicated by a small current floing through the
meter, the bridge is not balanced. The official rason for this is that
you can't get an 'correct exposure' indication if the battery is totally
flat (so the meter can't deflect at all). FOO!. It would be extremely
rare that the controls were set just right to give the exposure needed
for whatever you're point the camera at, and I think any photographer who
used such a camera and found no meter deflection would instinctively move
the camera around and/or turn the aperture ring to check the meter was
working. I know I would. My view is thath te Spotmatic meter is a bodge!
If you want an appliance, yes, it's important to not let yourself fall too =
far behind the curve. But if you're a manly man (or a womanly woman) and s=
eek great adventure and even greater glory (and perhaps even an advantage w=
ith members of the gender of your choice), you'll geek-up and do what it ta=
kes to keep your Olde Beaste running. =20
Yes, it deepends on what you want to do. If you want to run the lattest
software, you need a modern-ish computer. But I am quite happy using this
classic for e-mail, text processing, etc. It does all I need. And I
understand how it works and how to keep it working.
-tony
11 Aug
11 Aug
5:36 p.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
On 8/11/10 6:38 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
My problem is that I don't know if I can restore
the information in it.
The early Sparcbooks didn't have openboot.
Under SunOS, you can use the program called "eeprom" to dump out most
of the important contents. As far as restoring it, I'm not sure about
that, as I don't know what ROM-based code the very early SPARCbooks use.
One way to do it might be to read it out using an EPROM programmer.
My Data I/O supports the MK48T02, for example.
Using an old battery device from digikey is just
prolonging the
eventual death. If it isn't a current manufacture it is already part dead
when you get it.
Well yes, but it's not really all that bad. Those chips are shipped
with their clocks stopped, and you need to set a bit in them (normally
done by the OS at boot time, just in case) to "kick start" them. I
believe the datasheets even call it the "kick start bit". The battery
life is essentially the shelf life before the kick start bit is set for
the first time.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
5:48 p.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
Well yes, but it's not really all that bad.
Those chips are shipped
with their clocks stopped, and you need to set a bit in them (normally
done by the OS at boot time, just in case) to "kick start" them. I
believe the datasheets even call it the "kick start bit". The battery
life is essentially the shelf life before the kick start bit is set for
the first time.
First pulse in the /wr line...
6:42 p.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
On 8/11/10 8:48 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Is that what does it? I definitely remember a "kick start" bit in
the datasheet. Was that for the clock, and the /WR line enabled the
backup for the SRAM?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Well yes, but
it's not really all that bad. Those chips are shipped
with their clocks stopped, and you need to set a bit in them (normally
done by the OS at boot time, just in case) to "kick start" them. I
believe the datasheets even call it the "kick start bit". The battery
life is essentially the shelf life before the kick start bit is set
for the first time.
First pulse in the /wr line...
12 Aug
12 Aug
6:35 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 20:36:20 -0400
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
To:
Subject: Re: SparcBook Tadpole
On 8/11/10 6:38 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
Hi
I think I can read it with my programmer. At least with an adapter to make
it think it is a 2716.
I tried the "eeprom" and it didn't work :(
This must be before someon realized it was a good idea. Acording
to the history page I saw, the SparcBook was relatively early in
the history of things.
Dwight
Dwight
My problem is that I don't know if I can
restore the information in it.
The early Sparcbooks didn't have openboot.
Under SunOS, you can use the program called "eeprom" to dump out most
of the important contents. As far as restoring it, I'm not sure about
that, as I don't know what ROM-based code the very early SPARCbooks use.
One way to do it might be to read it out using an EPROM programmer.
My Data I/O supports the MK48T02, for example.
7:08 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com
Hi
Do you think I could use the program adb with /dev/nvram?
Could I use it to display and or edit the nvram values?
Dwight
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
On 8/11/10 6:38 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
Hi
I think I can read it with my programmer. At least with an adapter to make
it think it is a 2716.
I tried the "eeprom" and it didn't work :(
This must be before someon realized it was a good idea. Acording
to the history page I saw, the SparcBook was relatively early in
the history of things.
Dwight
Dwight
My problem is that I don't know if I can
restore the information in it.
The early Sparcbooks didn't have openboot.
Under SunOS, you can use the program called "eeprom" to dump out most
of the important contents. As far as restoring it, I'm not sure about
that, as I don't know what ROM-based code the very early SPARCbooks use.
One way to do it might be to read it out using an EPROM programmer.
My Data I/O supports the MK48T02, for example.
13 Aug
13 Aug
11:57 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
On 8/12/10 10:08 AM, dwight elvey wrote:
Do you think I could use the program adb with /dev/nvram?
Could I use it to display and or edit the nvram values?
If /dev/eeprom or /dev/nvram exists, you may be able to use that. Try
to dump the contents via that interface and see if it actually maps to
the hardware. You can try "od -x /dev/nvram" to do a hex dump.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Under SunOS, you can use the program called
"eeprom" to dump out most
of the important contents. As far as restoring it, I'm not sure about
that, as I don't know what ROM-based code the very early SPARCbooks use.
One way to do it might be to read it out using an EPROM programmer.
My Data I/O supports the MK48T02, for example.
I think I can read it with my programmer. At least with an adapter to make
it think it is a 2716.
I tried the "eeprom" and it didn't work :(
This must be before someon realized it was a good idea. Acording
to the history page I saw, the SparcBook was relatively early in
the history of things.
10:16 p.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:57:08 -0400
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
To:
Subject: Re: SparcBook Tadpole
On 8/12/10 10:08 AM, dwight elvey wrote:
Do you think I could use the program adb with /dev/nvram?
Could I use it to display and or edit the nvram values?
If /dev/eeprom or /dev/nvram exists, you may be able to use that. Try
to dump the contents via that interface and see if it actually maps to
the hardware. You can try "od -x /dev/nvram" to do a hex dump.
Hi Dave
No eeprom command :(
I tried the od command. not real interesting. Mostly nul and some ascii
strings. Things like /vmunix and RAMDram and stuff. I'd guess it is
some of the info extracted from the NVRAM on boot.
Dwight
Under SunOS, you can use the program called
"eeprom" to dump out most
of the important contents. As far as restoring it, I'm not sure about
that, as I don't know what ROM-based code the very early SPARCbooks use.
One way to do it might be to read it out using an EPROM programmer.
My Data I/O supports the MK48T02, for example.
I think I can read it with my programmer. At least with an adapter to make
it think it is a 2716.
I tried the "eeprom" and it didn't work :(
This must be before someon realized it was a good idea. Acording
to the history page I saw, the SparcBook was relatively early in
the history of things. 
11:13 p.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
Doesn't it have the OBP, you can also get the contants of the NVRAM or
program it using the built in forth
On 8/13/10 10:16 PM, "dwight elvey" <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:57:08 -0400
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
To:
Subject: Re: SparcBook Tadpole
On 8/12/10 10:08 AM, dwight elvey wrote:
If /dev/eeprom or /dev/nvram exists, you may be able to use that. Try
to dump the contents via that interface and see if it actually maps to
the hardware. You can try "od -x /dev/nvram" to do a hex dump.
Hi Dave
No eeprom command :(
I tried the od command. not real interesting. Mostly nul and some ascii
strings. Things like /vmunix and RAMDram and stuff. I'd guess it is
some of the info extracted from the NVRAM on boot.
Dwight
> Under
SunOS, you can use the program called "eeprom" to dump out most
> of the important contents. As far as restoring it, I'm not sure about
> that, as I don't know what ROM-based code the very early SPARCbooks use.
>
> One way to do it might be to read it out using an EPROM programmer.
> My Data I/O supports the MK48T02, for example.
I think I can read it with my programmer. At least with an adapter to make
it think it is a 2716.
I tried the "eeprom" and it didn't work :(
This must be before someon realized it was a good idea. Acording
to the history page I saw, the SparcBook was relatively early in
the history of things.
Do you think I could use the program adb with /dev/nvram?
Could I use it to display and or edit the nvram values?
14 Aug
14 Aug
7:31 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
Hi
It seems the the Sparcbook1 and Sparcbook2 don't have openboot.
They just used a boot ROM like a pc :{
Dwight
From: geoffr at zipcon.net
Doesn't it have the OBP, you can also get the contants of the NVRAM or
program it using the built in forth
---snip---
29 Aug
29 Aug
10:48 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
Hi
I pulled the NVRAM from my Sparcbook S1 to read it.
I looked at the data and it doesn't look like anything was
stored in it.
The first 8 bytes are FF then it is 00 until 0407.
It then turns to FF until 07F9 that is 80. It is
then FF until the end.
According to the spec sheet, the 80 would indicate
that the clock oscillator is turn off.
I wanted to make sure I'd not accidentally damaged
some byte in it so I put it back into my Sparcbook.
It booted fine with only the message that the clock
needed resetting ( always there but I've not attempted
to set it ).
Is it possible that it is storing everything on the disk
and not using the NVRAM for anything, only the clock function?
Dwight
1:01 p.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
On 8/29/10 1:48 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
I pulled the NVRAM from my Sparcbook S1 to read it.
I looked at the data and it doesn't look like anything was
stored in it.
The first 8 bytes are FF then it is 00 until 0407.
It then turns to FF until 07F9 that is 80. It is
then FF until the end.
According to the spec sheet, the 80 would indicate
that the clock oscillator is turn off.
I wanted to make sure I'd not accidentally damaged
some byte in it so I put it back into my Sparcbook.
It booted fine with only the message that the clock
needed resetting ( always there but I've not attempted
to set it ).
Is it possible that it is storing everything on the disk
and not using the NVRAM for anything, only the clock function?
I suppose it's possible but it'd be extremely non-Sun-like. Your
Ethernet MAC address should be in there; is it coming up with a useful
one, or all 0xFF?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
1:08 p.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 16:01:05 -0400
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
To:
Subject: Re: SparcBook Tadpole
On 8/29/10 1:48 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
Hi Dave
Do remember, it doesn't have any openboot either.
The value at 07F9 is what one would expect to see
on an uninitialize clock or stopped clock.
Dwight
I pulled the NVRAM from my Sparcbook S1 to read
it.
I looked at the data and it doesn't look like anything was
stored in it.
The first 8 bytes are FF then it is 00 until 0407.
It then turns to FF until 07F9 that is 80. It is
then FF until the end.
According to the spec sheet, the 80 would indicate
that the clock oscillator is turn off.
I wanted to make sure I'd not accidentally damaged
some byte in it so I put it back into my Sparcbook.
It booted fine with only the message that the clock
needed resetting ( always there but I've not attempted
to set it ).
Is it possible that it is storing everything on the disk
and not using the NVRAM for anything, only the clock function?
I suppose it's possible but it'd be extremely non-Sun-like. Your
Ethernet MAC address should be in there; is it coming up with a useful
one, or all 0xFF?
13 Aug
13 Aug
11:54 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
On 8/12/10 9:35 AM, dwight elvey wrote:
I think I can read it with my programmer. At least with an adapter to make
it think it is a 2716.
I tried the "eeprom" and it didn't work :(
This must be before someon realized it was a good idea. Acording
to the history page I saw, the SparcBook was relatively early in
the history of things.
That model of SparcBook is quite old, yes. So the eeprom program
isn't present, or it failed to function? It definitely existed in that
release of SunOS; it's possible that Tadpole's hardware was
incompatible. Their SPARC laptops really didn't start to become very
compatible at the hardware level until the "3" series.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
My problem is that I don't know if I can restore
the information in it.
The early Sparcbooks didn't have openboot.
Under SunOS, you can use the program called "eeprom" to dump out most
of the important contents. As far as restoring it, I'm not sure about
that, as I don't know what ROM-based code the very early SPARCbooks use.
One way to do it might be to read it out using an EPROM programmer.
My Data I/O supports the MK48T02, for example.
26 Aug
26 Aug
10:57 p.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
Hi
I thought I post an update on my Sparcbook s1.
I've not fiddle with the NVRAM yet. It is on my
list to do.
I did figure out the right combination to get it to
read the CRDOM through the scsi connections.
I'd tried a apa348 that is the same as the original
t348. It didn't work. After some more investigations,
I found that the t338 was more likely the correct
one to use. The line drawing in the book looked
like it could be a t338 or t339.
I didn't find much on the t339 other than that it
existed. I did find a t338 on ebay and bought
it. I connected cables and adapters together
from the Sparcbook to a Sun 411 cdrom drive.
I
then booted the Sparcbook and was able to mount
the cdrom and do a ls.
Wow. I'm just now fiddling with it to see what there
is to find.
Dwight
11 Aug
11 Aug
7:57 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
On 11 Aug 2010 at 7:37, dwight elvey wrote:
With the help of Jim S and Dave McGuire, I got my
Spacrbook working.
It does have an issue. It says the clock it not working and needs to
be set. I opened is up to clean any remaining KOH from leaky NiCads
and saw it had one of those MK48T02B chips in it.
I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips
to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales.
There is some on ebay but I don't know if the batteries will
be any good.
I suspect the battery has some life. It still boots with a hostname
and ethernet address but how much longer, who knows. Dwight
The part appears to be identical to the Dallas/Maxim DS1642.
DigiKey, Mouser, etc. show them in their catalogs. Not cheap, but
available.
--Chuck
9:45 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
On 8/11/10 10:37 AM, dwight elvey wrote:
With the help of Jim S and Dave McGuire, I got my
Spacrbook working.
Woohooo!
It does have an issue. It says the clock it not
working and needs to be
set. I opened is up to clean any remaining KOH from leaky NiCads
and saw it had one of those MK48T02B chips in it.
I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips
to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales.
I've seen pages documenting this, but that was years ago. The chip
sales sites (for companies who may or may not actually HAVE the chips
they're trying to sell, grumble) have certainly swamped that stuff, as
you've found. I suggest progressive google search refinement to find
the right stuff, as I know it's out there.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
9:57 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
On Wednesday 11 August 2010, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 8/11/10 10:37 AM, dwight elvey wrote:
First google result for "Sun NVRAM battery replacement":
http://www.bhargavaz.com/nvram/nvram.html
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
It does have an issue. It says the clock it not
working and needs
to be set. I opened is up to clean any remaining KOH from leaky
NiCads and saw it had one of those MK48T02B chips in it.
I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips
to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales.
I've seen pages documenting this, but that was years ago. The chip
sales sites (for companies who may or may not actually HAVE the chips
they're trying to sell, grumble) have certainly swamped that stuff,
as you've found. I suggest progressive google search refinement to
find the right stuff, as I know it's out there. 
10:05 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
On 8/11/10, Patrick Finnegan <pat at computer-refuge.org> wrote:
First google result for "Sun NVRAM battery
replacement":
http://www.bhargavaz.com/nvram/nvram.html
Ooh... I've seen that page before, and that technique looks dangerous
(the soldering to the Li battery part).
I've replaced batteries on "Timekeepers" before, but I either use the
batteries that have solder tabs pre-welded onto them, or use a snap-in
battery carrier and solder the leads from that to the chip.
-ethan
4:37 p.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
On 11/08/10 18:18, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
I've done it hundreds of times, you just need to
be fast and having a
good solder :P
A bit of preparation helps too -- use fine wet/dry paper to sand off the
top layer of metal, add a drop of solder, tin the wire, then add flux
and solder both together.
Of course I prefer doing the same thing, but with solder tags: cut off a
piece of nickel shim, drill a small hole in it, buff, solder some wire
to the tag, spot-weld the tag to the battery.
I built a spot-welder to do this -- basically, it's a bank of capacitors
and an SCR. See <http://www.philpem.me.uk/elec/welder/>.
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
2:26 p.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
On 8/11/2010 10:05 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
On 8/11/10, Patrick Finnegan<pat at
computer-refuge.org> wrote:
The places I've been who supply large numbers of replacement batteries
all have a fancy welding rig which they can use to stick a set of bands
on any battery, including lithium, by welding. Then solder to that. It
may not be as pretty as some of the soldered approaches, but i agree
with you, I'm not going to apply solder heat to a lithium battery. It's
all about heat not temperature to make them explode.
If you're lucky they will have them as Ethan mentions below already in
stock.
In my case I was going to fix a rechargable razor, and they even said
they would do that for free, make up the pack and put it in the unit,
they do those all the time. Doubt they get many sparcbooks though, I'd
probably do that myself.
First google result for "Sun NVRAM battery
replacement":
http://www.bhargavaz.com/nvram/nvram.html
Ooh... I've seen that page before, and that technique looks dangerous
(the soldering to the Li battery part).
I've replaced batteries on "Timekeepers"
before, but I either use the
batteries that have solder tabs pre-welded onto them, or use a snap-in
battery carrier and solder the leads from that to the chip.
-ethan
12 Aug
12 Aug
12:04 p.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
Ooh...
I've seen that page before, and that technique looks dangerous
(the soldering to the Li battery part).
The places I've been who supply large numbers of replacement batteries
all have a fancy welding rig which they can use to stick a set of bands on any battery, including lithium, by welding. Then
solder to that. It
may not be as pretty as some of the soldered approaches, but i agree
with you, I'm not going to apply solder heat to a lithium battery. It's
all about heat not temperature to make them explode.
Nor would I. But you can get lithium coin cells with PCB pins (which you
can solder to), or coil cell holders. I would use the latter if there was
space, it makes future repairs easier...
-tony
11 Aug
11 Aug
10:09 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
I've seen pages documenting this, but that was
years ago. The chip
sales sites (for companies who may or may not actually HAVE the chips
they're trying to sell, grumble) have certainly swamped that stuff, as
you've found. I suggest progressive google search refinement to find
the right stuff, as I know it's out there.
There is an add-on for firefox that you can isolate entire sites or
sections of sites on google search. I use it at home, in my desktop.
Unfortunately my desktop is still stored (I may remember you I just moved to
Sao Paulo). But I'll try to look for it this week
10:32 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
On 8/11/10 1:09 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Oh, I'd love that; the whole "experts-exchange.com" domain would
finally hit the bit bucket from my browser's perspective. Please let me
know the name of this add-on when you can?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
I've seen
pages documenting this, but that was years ago. The chip
sales sites (for companies who may or may not actually HAVE the chips
they're trying to sell, grumble) have certainly swamped that stuff, as
you've found. I suggest progressive google search refinement to find
the right stuff, as I know it's out there.
There is an add-on for firefox that you can isolate entire sites or
sections of sites on google search. I use it at home, in my desktop.
Unfortunately my desktop is still stored (I may remember you I just
moved to Sao Paulo). But I'll try to look for it this week
10:54 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
Oh, I'd love that; the whole
"experts-exchange.com" domain would
finally hit the bit bucket from my browser's perspective. Please let me
know the name of this add-on when you can?
SurfClarity!
https://addons.mozilla.org/pt-BR/firefox/addon/12305/
This is essential for me. I excluded many of the sales and spam sites. I
wish it had a better import/export excluded site list ;)
11:52 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
yes! definitely update this with more details!
Steve
On 8/11/2010 1:32 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 8/11/10 1:09 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Oh, I'd love that; the whole "experts-exchange.com" domain
would
finally hit the bit bucket from my browser's perspective. Please let me
know the name of this add-on when you can?
-Dave
I've seen pages documenting this, but that was years ago. The chip
sales sites (for companies who may or may not actually HAVE the chips
they're trying to sell, grumble) have certainly swamped that stuff, as
you've found. I suggest progressive google search refinement to find
the right stuff, as I know it's out there.
There is an add-on for firefox that you can isolate entire sites or
sections of sites on google search. I use it at home, in my desktop.
Unfortunately my desktop is still stored (I may remember you I just
moved to Sao Paulo). But I'll try to look for it this week
12:59 p.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:45:09 -0400
Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
I do this hack this way:
File down the top of the chip at the pin 12 / 13 end until you get to
the top of the old battery. The top of the battery is the + contact.
Now carefully carve out the wire that goes from the top down into the
resin. A dremel like tool with a small milling head will do best.
When you dug out enough of the + wire from the old battery to solder
somthing to it stop. Now cut the + wire loose at the very top of the
chip, immediately at the old battery. Solder one end of a wire to the
wire that goes down into the chip and the other end to the new battery.
Solder an other wire to pin 12 of the chip as this is GND and the other
end to - pole of the new battery.
I remember one geek meeting several years back where I did this surgery
to the NVRAMS of several Suns from my friends... Those where happy fun
days. :-)
--
\end{Jochen}
\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}
I tried doing
a search on google for anyone hacking these chips
to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales.
I've seen pages
documenting this, but that was years ago.
12 Aug
12 Aug
11:54 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
I do this hack this way:
File down the top of the chip at the pin 12 / 13 end until you get to
the top of the old battery. The top of the battery is the + contact.
What is the battery? A lithium coin cell?
Having had all sorts of batteries leak over the years, I would be happer
if you could repmve the old battery (even if it makes a mess of the top
of the package. Is that possible?
The ones I have seen look to be a normal 28 pin DIL package with a
separat block of encapsulant containing the battery (I assume) on top.
How are the wirtes from the battery connected into the 28 pin DIL package
part? Is it possible to cut away rather mroe of the encapsulant block and
remvoe the old battery without wrecking the chip?
-tony
I tried
doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips
to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales.
I've seen pages
documenting this, but that was years ago.
11:54 p.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:54:21 +0100 (BST)
ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
What is the battery? A lithium coin cell?
Yes.
Having had all sorts of batteries leak over the years,
I would be happer
if you could repmve the old battery (even if it makes a mess of the top
of the package. Is that possible?
I never had problems with leaking lithium coin
cells.
You can remove the battery by cutting the top of the chip. But be
carefull, the other half of the top contains the oszilator crystal of
the RTC. I don't like to remove the battery because it weakens the top
of the chip mechanicaly. (Though, you could fix the remaining part of
the top with the crystal by putting some resin on it.)
--
\end{Jochen}
\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}
13 Aug
13 Aug
11:31 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:54:21 +0100 (BST)
ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
I can;t rememebr if I have. I've had jsut about every other kind of
battery leak, though..
What is the battery? A lithium coin cell?
Yes.
Having had all sorts of batteries leak over the
years, I would be happer
if you could repmve the old battery (even if it makes a mess of the top
of the package. Is that possible?
I never had problems with leaking lithium coin
cells. You can remove the battery by cutting the top of the
chip. But be
carefull, the other half of the top contains the oszilator crystal of
the RTC. I don't like to remove the battery because it weakens the top
Of course, For the moment I'd forgotten about that xtal. I asusme it's a
norm,al 32768Jz one.
How are the connections fro the battey and crystal made to the chip itelf?
-tony
14 Aug
14 Aug
12:21 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:31:09 +0100 (BST)
ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
I asusme it's a norm,al 32768Jz one.
Maybe.
I don't know.
How are the connections fro the battey and crystal
made to the chip itelf?
The chip (wide 24 pin DIP) has pins on the short edges. Two
between
pins 1 and 24 for the XTAL, two between pins 12 and 13 for the battery.
These special pins don't come out of the chip. They go up into the top
close to the edge. The top is a plasic cap filled with resin. (The chip
is turned top-down to pour the resin into the cap.) There is a small
gap between the top and the actual chip in the middle of the divice.
Only at the edges, where the wires go upward, are covered with resin.
So the top is fixed to the chip mostly by the four wires and a bit of
resin that coveres the wires at the short edges.
That is why I don't like to remove the battery by cutting the top in
half. The XTAL part of the top will only be fixed by two wires and a
litle bit of resin. To make it machanicaly stable again you would have
to glue the dangling XTAL half to the chip again. But why do that extra
work and fight with messy glue if you can avoid all of this just by
carefull and not so intrusive surgery?
--
\end{Jochen}
\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}
1:26 p.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:31:09 +0100 (BST)
ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
I would be suporised if it wasn't, but then I am often suprised
I asusme it's a norm,al 32768Jz one.
Maybe. I don't know. How are the connections fro the battey and
crystal made to the chip itelf?
The chip (wide 24 pin DIP) has pins on the short
edges. Two between
pins 1 and 24 for the XTAL, two between pins 12 and 13 for the battery.
These special pins don't come out of the chip. They go up into the top
close to the edge. The top is a plasic cap filled with resin. (The chip is turned top-down to pour the resin into the cap.)
There is a small
gap between the top and the actual chip in the middle of the divice.
Only at the edges, where the wires go upward, are covered with resin.
So the top is fixed to the chip mostly by the four wires and a bit of
resin that coveres the wires at the short edges.
That is why I don't like to remove the battery by cutting the top in
half. The XTAL part of the top will only be fixed by two wires and a
litle bit of resin. To make it machanicaly stable again you would have
to glue the dangling XTAL half to the chip again. But why do that extra
Right. Doesn't sound impossible ot make this stronger, though.
work and fight with messy glue if you can avoid all of
this just by
carefull and not so intrusive surgery?
I am always worried about leaving dead battereis in things. I still
believe leakage could be a problem, and I'd rather I didn't get
electrolyte all over the PCB, for example.
-tony
11 Aug
11 Aug
11:37 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
On 08/11/2010 07:37 AM, dwight elvey wrote:
With the help of Jim S and Dave McGuire, I got my
Spacrbook working.
It does have an issue. It says the clock it not working and needs to be
set. I opened is up to clean any remaining KOH from leaky NiCads
and saw it had one of those MK48T02B chips in it.
I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips
to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales.
ST absorbed Mostek some years back, so the prefix changed from MK to M,
but they're still made. You can get a brand new M48T02 from Digikey for
$20.10:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=497-28…
11:44 a.m.
New subject: SparcBook Tadpole
On 8/11/10 2:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
On 08/11/2010 07:37 AM, dwight elvey wrote:
Note that an nvramrc may be required for these newer parts to work in
some Suns. I don't recall how this came up, but it was in my notes from
about ten years ago. Here's what you'd need to do at OBP:
ok nvedit
0:probe-all
1:install-console
2:banner
3:boot
6:^C
ok nvstore
ok setenv use-nvramrc? true
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
With the help of Jim S and Dave McGuire, I got
my Spacrbook working.
It does have an issue. It says the clock it not working and needs to be
set. I opened is up to clean any remaining KOH from leaky NiCads
and saw it had one of those MK48T02B chips in it.
I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips
to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales.
ST absorbed Mostek some years back, so the prefix changed from MK to M,
but they're still made. You can get a brand new M48T02 from Digikey for
$20.10:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=497-28…
10 Aug
10 Aug
7:34 a.m.
I use an old Needham's PB-10 EPROM programmer.
Best device programmer
ever, as far as I'm concerned. It's fast, reliable, and the software is so
nice and easy to use. Only problem - it's old, and doesn't support 16 bit
devices. I really need to be able to program 27c160 and 27c322 devices.
I had one, and it was excellent...15 years ago :)
So, I built an adapter. I bought a 16bit adapter
intended for those cheap
and nasty Willem programmers. I made some minor modifications to use it
with my Needhams, and added toggle switches for the upper address lines.
Now, I can program larger devices in chunks. This worked perfectly for the
couple of chips I had at the time - two 27c160's and two 27c800's.
IF the program algorythm (wow, I forgot how to spell it!) is right for
the bigger devices! :oO
On chips with a date code before about 2000, the die
is larger, and none
of these want to program. On chips with a date code after 2000, the die is
smaller, and some of them program perfectly, others get most of the way
through before erroring out.
Had the same problem here in Brazil. To the point I had to specificaly
ask the supplier the '160 with "4 squares" (the smaller die is divided in 4,
the bigger in 6). This is **very common** to happen if you don't have a GOOD
programmer.
The only programmer that worked was a Beeprog+ I had access. Now I use
a Wellon VP-280 (china!) and it works with both kinds of memory, like the
beeprog.
Now, I'm stumped. I *really* want to make this
programmer program these
chips. It does everything else properly, including
Redo the DOS program? :)
Basically, I am wondering if any of our resident gurus
have seen behavior
like this with EPROMs, and if there may be anything I can do to shorten
pulses, buffer, or something to get this to program... or, if anyone just
*happens* to have the source code to the EMP software laying around
somewhere...
I believe it will be cheaper to buy a new/good programmer. VP280 costs
less than a hundred bucks and it outperforms anything you can think of in a
PB-10.
Failing that, does anyone have a suggestion of an
EPROM programmer that I
can buy that will program 27c160's. Preferably something that can be
operated from DOS over a parallel or serial port, or better yet, an ISA
card.
:o\
Though question! :o)
Greetings from Brazil,
Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ
8:12 a.m.
From: ian_primus at yahoo.com
Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's)
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Well, I am stumped here. I have been fighting with this for a while and I can't
figure it out...
I use an old Needham's PB-10 EPROM programmer. Best device programmer ever, as far as
I'm concerned. It's fast, reliable, and the software is so nice and easy to use.
Only problem - it's old, and doesn't support 16 bit devices. I really need to be
able to program 27c160 and 27c322 devices.
Hi
I started to hack my PB-10 but found the bad transistor before completing.
Maybe I'll finish it some time.
Dwight
11 Aug
11 Aug
4:52 a.m.
On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Mr Ian Primus wrote:
Failing that, does anyone have a suggestion of an
EPROM programmer that
I can buy that will program 27c160's. Preferably something that can be
operated from DOS over a parallel or serial port, or better yet, an ISA
card.
I purchased an Andromeda Research AR-32A programming system. Best money I
ever spent! The base unit covers an enormous number of EPROMs and they
have adapters for just about anything else imaginable. Best yet: They
will sell you the bare boards for any of the adapters, provide a schematic
and let you have at it.
Their tech support is superlative. Very knowledgable folks.
And, yes, the software runs as a DOS application :-).
Steve
--
4:29 p.m.
On 11/08/10 12:52, Steven Hirsch wrote:
I purchased an Andromeda Research AR-32A programming
system. Best money
I ever spent! The base unit covers an enormous number of EPROMs and they
have adapters for just about anything else imaginable. Best yet: They
will sell you the bare boards for any of the adapters, provide a
schematic and let you have at it.
Their tech support is superlative. Very knowledgable folks.
And, yes, the software runs as a DOS application :-).
I'm still waiting for an EPROM programmer with Linux software available.
I'm actually tempted to do a GAL/fuse-PROM programmer seeing as my
GALBlast won't work worth a damn on this machine :(
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
12 Aug
12 Aug
12:25 p.m.
I'm still waiting for an EPROM programmer with
Linux software available.
Make one!. The programming specs for most EPROMs are available, I think...
I'm actually tempted to do a GAL/fuse-PROM programmer seeing as my
GALBlast won't work worth a damn on this machine :(
Are enough of the programming algorithms documented to make this
possible? For the fusible-link PROMs (and PALs), every manufactuer seemed
to do it their own way. Some would release the programming specifications
(they were even sometimes in the data sheets), others wouldn't. Some
stopped releaisng them, so you could get hand-program the early parts but
no the later ones.
Ditto for GALs (although, actually, geting any programmign specification
for those was 'interestings')
-tony
3:05 p.m.
WILLEM!!! The specs and source code are still avaiable on the net :)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: EPROM programming (27c160's)
I'm still
waiting for an EPROM programmer with Linux software available.
Make one!. The programming specs for most EPROMs are available, I think...
I'm actually tempted to do a GAL/fuse-PROM programmer seeing as my
GALBlast won't work worth a damn on this machine :(
Are enough of the programming algorithms documented to make this
possible? For the fusible-link PROMs (and PALs), every manufactuer seemed
to do it their own way. Some would release the programming specifications
(they were even sometimes in the data sheets), others wouldn't. Some
stopped releaisng them, so you could get hand-program the early parts but
no the later ones.
Ditto for GALs (although, actually, geting any programmign specification
for those was 'interestings')
-tony
13 Aug
13 Aug
11:04 a.m.
WILLEM!!! The specs and source code are still avaiable on the net :)
Specs anmd source code for _what_?
For EPROM programming, I am not suprised. But for programming _all_
manufacturers PALs or GALs or fusilble-link PROMs, I am amazed. Do you
have the URL to hand?
-tony
12:43 p.m.
http://web.archive.org/web/20080621113020/http://www.willem.org/
I think I still have an image of the old site on my desktop, mail me if
you want that
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: EPROM programming (27c160's)
WILLEM!!! The specs and source code are still avaiable on the net :)
Specs anmd source code for _what_?
For EPROM programming, I am not suprised. But for programming _all_
manufacturers PALs or GALs or fusilble-link PROMs, I am amazed. Do you
have the URL to hand?
-tony
8:28 p.m.
Does anyone know what ever happen to willem? There were all sorts of rumors
going around...
On 8/13/10 12:43 PM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" <pu1bzz.listas at
gmail.com>
wrote:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080621113020/http://www.willem.org/
I think I still have an image of the old site on my desktop, mail me if
you want that
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: EPROM programming (27c160's)
WILLEM!!! The specs and source code are still avaiable on the net :)
Specs anmd source code for _what_?
For EPROM programming, I am not suprised. But for programming _all_
manufacturers PALs or GALs or fusilble-link PROMs, I am amazed. Do you
have the URL to hand?
-tony
10:52 a.m.
On 12/08/10 20:25, Tony Duell wrote:
Indeed. "Universal 32-pin programmer" is on my 'potential projects'
list. 32 MOSFET pin drivers, a couple of separate power supplies with
variable current limit, and an FPGA to do the heavy lifting (timing, I/O
expander, that sort of thing).
I'm still
waiting for an EPROM programmer with Linux software available.
Make one!. The programming specs for most EPROMs are available, I think... Are enough of the programming algorithms documented to
make this
possible?
The GAL programming algorithms have been figured out. C't and Elektor
published them a few years ago, and Manfred Winterhoff designed the
GALBlast around them. The hardware is fine, but the software is
horrendous -- all stuffed into one C file, makes extensive use of 16-bit
Windows APIs, and is about as portable as a skyscraper...
For the fusible-link PROMs (and PALs), every
manufactuer seemed
to do it their own way. Some would release the programming specifications
(they were even sometimes in the data sheets), others wouldn't.
I'm only really interested in the Signetics 82S series, and maybe some
of the MMI parts (assuming I can find programming specs). Anything else
would be a "nice to have".
Ditto for GALs (although, actually, geting any
programmign specification
for those was 'interestings')
Indeed. Lattice won't give out any info on them, period. I asked a few
years ago, and I got exactly five words in response: "We don't provide
that information."
MaWin's documentation and the Elektor article, combined with the
GALBlast sources ("Use The Source, Luke!") provide more than enough info
to do a decent GAL programmer.
The one thing that is as finicky as hell on the GALBlast is the damn Vcc
switch. Stupid thing has an insane amount of voltage drop, if I ever use
the thing again (translation: if I can find it) I'll be swapping the NPN
driver for a MOSFET (possibly with a BJT gate-driver).
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
11:08 a.m.
Indeed. "Universal 32-pin programmer" is on
my 'potential projects' list.
32 MOSFET pin drivers, a couple of separate power supplies with variable
current limit, and an FPGA to do the heavy lifting (timing, I/O expander,
that sort of thing).
Why not take a look on the reverse engineering of the TOP 2005 and 2008
programmers? It is avaiable on the net!
The GAL programming algorithms have been figured out.
C't and Elektor
published them a few years ago, and Manfred Winterhoff designed the
GALBlast around them. The hardware is fine, but the software is
horrendous -- all stuffed into one C file, makes extensive use of 16-bit
Windows APIs, and is about as portable as a skyscraper...
You can always reverse engineer....You have an excellent logical
analyser :)
The one thing that is as finicky as hell on the
GALBlast is the damn Vcc
switch. Stupid thing has an insane amount of voltage drop, if I ever use
the thing again (translation: if I can find it) I'll be swapping the NPN
driver for a MOSFET (possibly with a BJT gate-driver).
**affordable** MOSFETS are a novelty, was it avaiable at project time?
2:04 p.m.
On 14/08/10 19:08, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Got a link? Google isn't revealing anything particularly relevant for
the TOP2008. I've seen the hack for the TOP2005 on Openschemes, but it
doesn't look like the hardware is especially versatile...
Reverse engineering wouldn't be required. Tidying up MaWin's schematic
would be a good starting point, but the code is reasonably easy to
figure out. Porting the basic algorithms to Linux wouldn't be hard, but
getting the timing right would be.
Indeed.
"Universal 32-pin programmer" is on my 'potential projects'
list. 32 MOSFET pin drivers, a couple of separate power supplies with
variable current limit, and an FPGA to do the heavy lifting (timing,
I/O expander, that sort of thing).
Why not take a look on the reverse engineering of the TOP 2005 and 2008
programmers? It is avaiable on the net! The GAL
programming algorithms have been figured out. C't and Elektor
published them a few years ago, and Manfred Winterhoff designed the
GALBlast around them. The hardware is fine, but the software is
horrendous -- all stuffed into one C file, makes extensive use of
16-bit Windows APIs, and is about as portable as a skyscraper...
You can always reverse engineer....You have an excellent logical
analyser :) **affordable** MOSFETS are a novelty, was it avaiable
at project time?
The 2N7000 would have worked fine, and those are ten-a-penny these days.
Essentially zero voltage drop (vs. the 1.4V of a BJT).
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
2:12 p.m.
Got a link? Google isn't revealing anything
particularly relevant for the
TOP2008. I've seen the hack for the TOP2005 on Openschemes, but it doesn't
look like the hardware is especially versatile...
What else do you need? The commands outlined in openschemes seems to be
enough for creating another program, maybe I'm wrong :)
Reverse engineering wouldn't be required. Tidying
up MaWin's schematic
would be a good starting point, but the code is reasonably easy to figure
out. Porting the basic algorithms to Linux wouldn't be hard, but getting
the timing right would be.
That's why these timings must be done on board
4:20 p.m.
On 14/08/10 22:12, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
... which brings us neatly back to "I need a GAL programmer that isn't
dependent on the host system running a single-tasking OS".
Relying on any PC to generate accurate timings is stupid unless you turn
off interrupts for a bit. Hope you're not expecting the clock to be
accurate when you've finished... and even then the timing might not be
that good (the DMA controller might decide to steal a few bus cycles
here and there).
If I was going to do it, I'd bolt a J-series PIC18F chip onto an FPGA,
then wire the FPGA up to a couple of gate driver boards. Hmm, sounds
suspiciously like the DiscFerret hardware, doesn't it? :)
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
What else do you need? The commands outlined in
openschemes seems to be
enough for creating another program, maybe I'm wrong :)
The point I was trying to make is that you said the TOP2008 had been
reverse engineered similarly; that page only has info on the TOP2005.
And quite frankly I don't need another badly-engineered Chinese brick on
my desk.
Reverse
engineering wouldn't be required. Tidying up MaWin's schematic
would be a good starting point, but the code is reasonably easy to
figure out. Porting the basic algorithms to Linux wouldn't be hard,
but getting the timing right would be.
That's why these timings must be done on board 
13 Aug
13 Aug
5:32 a.m.
On Thursday (08/12/2010 at 12:29AM +0100), Philip Pemberton wrote:
On 11/08/10 12:52, Steven Hirsch wrote:
There's these,
http://www.conitec.com/english/pricing.php
which not only have Linux host apps to run them... they actually run Linux
as the embedded OS in the programmer.
I purchased an Andromeda Research AR-32A
programming system. Best money
I ever spent! The base unit covers an enormous number of EPROMs and they
have adapters for just about anything else imaginable. Best yet: They
will sell you the bare boards for any of the adapters, provide a
schematic and let you have at it.
Their tech support is superlative. Very knowledgable folks.
And, yes, the software runs as a DOS application :-).
I'm still waiting for an EPROM programmer with Linux software available. I'm actually tempted to do a GAL/fuse-PROM
programmer seeing as my
GALBlast won't work worth a damn on this machine :(
The above does PALs and GALs too (at least the most popular 16*8, 20*8 and
22*10 flavors).
I don't have one yet... but soon.
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist
12 Aug
12 Aug
12:22 p.m.
From: ian_primus at yahoo.com
---snip---
So, carefully reading the datasheet, I notice that the 27c160 wants a program pulse of
50us. The chip that the programmer thinks it's programming, a 27c040, uses a
programming pulse of 100ns. The programming waveforms between a 27c160 and a 27c040 look
the same to me, besides that. But it would seem that my problems lie with the waveform
being incorrect, and newer chips being less picky about it than the older chips of the
same part number.
Now, I'm stumped. I *really* want to make this programmer program these chips. It
does everything else properly, including program 27c322's with this adapter. Now, I
know the adapter is wired correctly, because I have programmed newer rev 27c160's
properly, and they have worked perfectly in their intended purpose. The adapter is wired
up such that in 27c322 mode, the programmer is used as if it were a 27c080, and in 27c160
mode the programmer is used as if it were a 27c040. I did it this way due to the pinouts
of the devices and the required programming algorithms.
Basically, I am wondering if any of our resident gurus have seen behavior like this with
EPROMs, and if there may be anything I can do to shorten pulses, buffer, or something to
get this to program... or, if anyone just *happens* to have the source code to the EMP
software laying around somewhere...
Hi
I was giving this some thought.
What problem are you actually having? Are you getting cells that
don't program or are you seeing cells that are being programmed without
there bing a bit '0' in that location.
One thing to check is the quality of the socket used. Most older
Zero insertion sockets use metal that does corrode over time. These
do need bernishing.
This usually causes failures in connecting address or data line.
If it is failing to program, increase the voltage a little ( worst you can do
is blow out the part ).
If you are seeing bit that are programmed to zeros that shouldn't be,
try reducing the voltage.
Also turn off any manuufacture recognition and use generic programming.
As I said, the most common problem is bad contact on the pins. The socket
could have corrosion and the sides of the pins could also have corrosion.
Doing a dump after a programming error can show quite a bit about what
was happening.
Dwight
5011
days inactive
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days old
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