2 Dec
2016
2 Dec
'16
3:18 p.m.
-------- Original message --------
From: allison <ajp166 at verizon.net>
Date: 2016-12-02 2:23 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff
On 12/02/2016 12:33 PM, Brad H wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Alderson
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 1:34 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Subject: RE: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff
From: Brad H
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 8:18 AM
That's more than lazy!? Just don't!
The PDP-8 and the PDP11 and PDP10 were beating the pants off of Intellec
2xx systems
for years before the first one was made.? Remember Billy Gates used a
PDP10 cross
assembler and simulator to create BASIC.? The market those DEC system
were in
demanded far more performance than the 8080 from 1974 could deliver.
An 8e running WPS was typically a multi-user system.
A PDP-8E running TSS could service 8-16 users in what appeared to them
as real time.
That was the original Boces Lirics system of 1969 a whopping three racks
of PDP-8i
The PDP-8e was a tad faster.? Fast forward to the early 90s and my
Decmate-III with APU
and running OS278 likely make the I230 look poor and it was much
smaller.? FYI the DMIII
is a PDP-8 on a chip (cmos 6120 cpu).? The APU was a z80 at 4mhz with 64K
ram and could
still easily outrun the I230 and gave me the choice to use 0S278 (a
version of OS8),
WPS (word and list processing), and CP/M-80.
A PDP-10 (BOCES LIRICS system 1970!) serviced over 300 users.? A 36bit
monster.
The CPU and the memory was eight 6ft racks long by two rows big not
including the four RP06s.
That system used the old PDP8i to keep it fed (data concentrator).
A PDP-11/23 with a 10MB disk in a single 50inch short cab running TSX or
other time sharing
system usually? supported 4-8 users. It was a 16bit system at that.
They usually fit in the corner.
A Intellect 230 was handily beat by my NS*Horizon system in 1980.
That's allowing for
the fact that the I230 was 8080 powered and ran at 2mhz (2:1 handicap).
I know the
system well as I used it to develop programs for 8048/9, 8085, 8088, and
other micros
of the day till we retired it for a faster box (multibus 8086 at 8mhz in
1981).
So a knowledge of computer history and performance is is something to
My Intellec 230 though might give a PDP a run for
its money.
See, I'm trying to get you to stop saying "a PDP".?
There's no such thing.
There are families of PDP-n things, but there are wide differences in size, weight, and
capabilities.
Your Intellec 230 would fit inside one memory cabinet of a PDP-10 with room to spare.?
The entire PDP-10 system weighs tons.
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Rich
Rich Alderson
Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computers: Museum + Labs
2245 1st Ave S
Seattle, WA 98134
http://www.LivingComputers.org/
Sorry.. I was being lazy.. I should have said
'a PDP 8/E'.? Obviously there are some pretty large PDP-# systems.
consider.
Allison
Sorry.. when I said 'beat'.. I meant weight only. ?And only for the main PDP-8e
system unit. ?Was not comparing processing speed. ?But I appreciate all the info you gave
me there for sure. :)
2 Dec
2 Dec
3:42 p.m.
On 12/02/2016 06:18 PM, Brad H wrote:
-------- Original message --------
From: allison <ajp166 at verizon.net>
Date: 2016-12-02 2:23 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff
On 12/02/2016 12:33 PM, Brad H wrote:
An 8e box with boards for a reasonable
system is still heavier than a
I230. That's not
counting the IO terminal (asr33). :) I know that as I've had the
opportunity to carry
both of them to the door and if I got there it was mine, they aren't
light at all. FYI I
think the DEC docs for the 8E might weigh in as impressive!
DEC did some impressive boxes, the documentation and training alone was also
pretty important as many of the people familiar with them get their
training that
way. Intel learned from that model which is why databooks and other
info is
common from the era. Later RS, Apple, and even IBM would follow the model
of get while they are young and make them loyal.
Allison
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Alderson
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 1:34 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Subject: RE: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff
From: Brad H
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 8:18 AM
That's more than lazy! Just don't!
The PDP-8 and the PDP11 and PDP10 were beating the pants off of Intellec
2xx systems
for years before the first one was made. Remember Billy Gates used a
PDP10 cross
assembler and simulator to create BASIC. The market those DEC system
were in
demanded far more performance than the 8080 from 1974 could deliver.
An 8e running WPS was typically a multi-user system.
A PDP-8E running TSS could service 8-16 users in what appeared to them
as real time.
That was the original Boces Lirics system of 1969 a whopping three racks
of PDP-8i
The PDP-8e was a tad faster. Fast forward to the early 90s and my
Decmate-III with APU
and running OS278 likely make the I230 look poor and it was much
smaller. FYI the DMIII
is a PDP-8 on a chip (cmos 6120 cpu). The APU was a z80 at 4mhz with 64K
ram and could
still easily outrun the I230 and gave me the choice to use 0S278 (a
version of OS8),
WPS (word and list processing), and CP/M-80.
A PDP-10 (BOCES LIRICS system 1970!) serviced over 300 users. A 36bit
monster.
The CPU and the memory was eight 6ft racks long by two rows big not
including the four RP06s.
That system used the old PDP8i to keep it fed (data concentrator).
A PDP-11/23 with a 10MB disk in a single 50inch short cab running TSX or
other time sharing
system usually supported 4-8 users. It was a 16bit system at that.
They usually fit in the corner.
A Intellect 230 was handily beat by my NS*Horizon system in 1980.
That's allowing for
the fact that the I230 was 8080 powered and ran at 2mhz (2:1 handicap).
I know the
system well as I used it to develop programs for 8048/9, 8085, 8088, and
other micros
of the day till we retired it for a faster box (multibus 8086 at 8mhz in
1981).
So a knowledge of computer history and performance is is something to
My Intellec 230 though might give a PDP a run for
its money.
See, I'm trying to get you to stop saying "a PDP".
There's no such thing.
There are families of PDP-n things, but there are wide differences in size, weight, and
capabilities.
Your Intellec 230 would fit inside one memory cabinet of a PDP-10 with room to spare.
The entire PDP-10 system weighs tons.
Rich
Rich Alderson
Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computers: Museum + Labs
2245 1st Ave S
Seattle, WA 98134
http://www.LivingComputers.org/
Sorry.. I was being lazy.. I should have said
'a PDP 8/E'. Obviously there are some pretty large PDP-# systems.
consider.
Allison
Sorry.. when I said 'beat'.. I meant weight only. And only for
the main PDP-8e system unit. Was not comparing processing speed. But I appreciate all
the info you gave me there for sure. :)
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