21 Dec
2012
21 Dec
'12
5:13 p.m.
Backing up a usb device sure but as Cindy pointed out its likely a poor backup media
itself. Some friends and I all had 64mb flash drives back when they were new. We all lost
our copies of some source code we had been using it for (portable coding drive so we could
use each others systems and have our progress). Left a sore spot despite them being nice
for quick trips or transferring files.
21 Dec
21 Dec
5:44 p.m.
On 12/21/2012 05:13 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote:
Backing up a usb device sure but as Cindy pointed out
its likely a
poor backup media itself. Some friends and I all had 64mb flash
drives back when they were new. We all lost our copies of some source
code we had been using it for (portable coding drive so we could use
each others systems and have our progress). Left a sore spot despite
them being nice for quick trips or transferring files.
I'm still using my 256 and 512MB flash drives. But you have a point;
the consumer flash USB drives are not known for their robustness. When
customers ask to have data returned on USB flash, I balk a bit, and
insist on sending along a CD or DVD with the flash--and then hang onto
the data for at least 30 days.
Just like floppies, storage environment and handling means a lot. If
you're used to carrying a USB drive around in your pocket along with
your keys, you should probably have a backup of that data somewhere.
I mostly find pen drives useful for sneakernet and substitutes for CD
ROMs on systems that lack drives.
A useful comparison between SLC and MLC flash:
http://www.supertalent.com/datasheets/SLC_vs_MLC%20whitepaper.pdf
Speaking for myself, I have data backed up in several places, one of
them being off-site in a vault, against the day that we have a sudden
300m rise in sea level. :)
--Chuck
22 Dec
22 Dec
1:04 a.m.
On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 17:44:42 -0800
Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
A useful comparison between SLC and MLC flash:
It gets even worse with TLC flash. This is getting increasingly common
in Micro-SD cards and miniature USB drives. We are down to 1000 write
cycles and a data retention time of 6 months. Flash media is getting as
unreliable and thus unusable as late 90s 3.5" floppies... :-(
--
\end{Jochen}
\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}
9:43 a.m.
On 12/22/2012 01:04 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 17:44:42 -0800
Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
That is VERY true. Consumer-level stuff seems to be "maximum bits/Hz
for the money, reliability be damned". Anyone who has any doubts should
price SLC media against MLC/TLC stuff. Of course, the public isn't
taught much about this at all.
--Chuck
A useful comparison between SLC and MLC flash:
It gets even worse with TLC flash. This is getting increasingly common
in Micro-SD cards and miniature USB drives. We are down to 1000 write
cycles and a data retention time of 6 months. Flash media is getting as
unreliable and thus unusable as late 90s 3.5" floppies... :-( 
11:09 a.m.
New subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics
On 12/22/2012 12:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Yes. And when it fails, "Oh, I'll just go buy another one."
The training is -perfect-.
And when you get on someone's case about it, they usually say
something like "Well I didn't know!!" ...as if accusing YOU of doing
something bad by informing them of it.
The public is seriously fucked, and they seem to be pretty happy about it.
So...where can we get older long-life-expectancy flash drives? I
don't care if they're less capacious; I need to sneakernet small groups
of files around occasionally, not swap copies of my entire movie collection.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Chuck Guzis
<cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
That is VERY true. Consumer-level stuff seems to be "maximum bits/Hz
for the money, reliability be damned". Anyone who has any doubts should
price SLC media against MLC/TLC stuff. Of course, the public isn't
taught much about this at all. A useful comparison between SLC and MLC flash:
It gets even worse with TLC flash. This is getting increasingly common
in Micro-SD cards and miniature USB drives. We are down to 1000 write
cycles and a data retention time of 6 months. Flash media is getting as
unreliable and thus unusable as late 90s 3.5" floppies... :-( 
11:29 a.m.
New subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics
So...where can we get older long-life-expectancy
flash drives? I
don't care if they're less capacious; I need to sneakernet small groups
of files around occasionally, not swap copies of my entire movie collection.
People look at me like I have two heads for still buying spinning disks, but
under high activity I expect more life from the spinning disk, assuming it
is well-cared-for, than the solid-state flash one (wear leveling).
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- armadillo, n. the act of providing weapons to a Spanish pickle. ------------
11:36 a.m.
New subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics
On 12/22/2012 02:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Yup. The world is full of stupid people.
I really don't have much of a problem with that. They annoy me, but I
can deal with them.
What I have a problem with is people who are BLISSFULLY stupid, and
think that anyone with more knowledge than they have is crazy or wrong,
like the "looking at you like you have two heads" issue you mentioned.
Dumbasses.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
So...where
can we get older long-life-expectancy flash drives? I
don't care if they're less capacious; I need to sneakernet small groups
of files around occasionally, not swap copies of my entire movie collection.
People look at me like I have two heads for still buying spinning disks, but
under high activity I expect more life from the spinning disk, assuming it
is well-cared-for, than the solid-state flash one (wear leveling).
11:51 a.m.
New subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics
On 12/22/2012 11:29 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
People look at me like I have two heads for still
buying spinning disks, but
under high activity I expect more life from the spinning disk, assuming it
is well-cared-for, than the solid-state flash one (wear leveling).
I've been running my Linux mailserver/firewall for at least 4 years 24/7
using a Seagate 5GB microdrive. No issues whatsoever. I'd have second
thoughts about using a traditional flash CF in its place.
The interesting aspect is that those things are equipped with SMART
technology, which surprised me.
--Chuck
11:34 a.m.
New subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
? So...where can we get older long-life-expectancy flash drives?? I
don't care if they're less capacious; I need to sneakernet small groups
of files around occasionally, not swap copies of my entire movie collection.
C: Now you could say the industry is just giving the consumer what they want. Much of the
data (a bloody huge amount) being shifted around is eminently replaceable. The latest
version of Spiderman can hardly be considered mission critical. And yes floppies back in
the day were highly reliable and bloody amazing (I personally don't get as much use as
others, but I have seen some that maintain their data for 20+ years, then crap out), back
when no one would ever need more then 640k of ram.
?It stinks being in the minority I know. But those with the inclination can offer their
own solutions to such problems. It's called collaboration. Just look at what some
people do in isolation. Until then use cds (preferably old stock?).
?There was also that optical glass element that Hitachi IIRC was developing. Maybe you all
can lean on them a bit.
?Why doesn't someone take apart some older and newer flash drives and see exactly what
is the problem.
?Remember the Sony Mavica digicams, the earliest used a 3.5" floppy drive LOL. The
newer a full sized cd iirc. Despite people's attempts to get mondo huge bucks for
them, they're still had pretty reasonably. I suggest you get a gaggle of the cd
version Dave. You can photograph everything like me and store it reliably on cd LOL LOL
LOL.
11:41 a.m.
New subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics
On 12/22/2012 02:34 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
So...where can we get older long-life-expectancy flash
drives? I
don't care if they're less capacious; I need to sneakernet small
groups of files around occasionally, not swap copies of my entire
movie collection.
C: Now you could say the industry is just giving the consumer what
they want.
One could. But the problem here is that the consumers are too
clueless to know what they NEED, and in the Wal*Mart Nation, "cheaper is
better", even when it isn't, and the industry is all too willing to oblige.
This is not a good thing overall.
Much of the data (a bloody huge amount) being shifted
around is eminently replaceable. The latest version of Spiderman can
hardly be considered mission critical.
Sure, but photos of Baby are what inevitably gets lost when people do
stupid things and use shit equipment.
And then they go out and buy the same shit equipment the next time.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
1:16 p.m.
New subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics
On 12/22/2012 12:41 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
Sure, but photos of Baby are what inevitably gets
lost when people do
stupid things and use shit equipment.
And then they go out and buy the same shit equipment the next time.
Why worry ... Easy to have more babies. :)
-Dave
24 Dec
24 Dec
11:28 a.m.
New subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
C: Now you could say the industry is just giving the
consumer what
they want.
? One could.? But the problem here is that the consumers are too
clueless to know what they NEED, and in the Wal*Mart Nation, "cheaper is
better", even when it isn't, and the industry is all too willing to oblige.
? This is not a good thing overall.
C: Yes and no. While my overall feelings are mostly inline w/yours, sometimes market
forces serve to bring prices down. Maybe that's a bad thing at times, because it
breeds contempt for the tools we use. Rather then having to spend 3000$ for a capable
machine, you spend 300$, and if it craps the bed or gets stolen, just replace it. You
never even have the opportunity nor the desire to know the machine.
?Computers bore me these days. I don't know what it is. Much of it is geared towards
stupid games and whatnot.
Much of the data (a bloody huge amount) being shifted
around is eminently replaceable. The latest version of Spiderman can
hardly be considered mission critical.
? Sure, but photos of Baby are what inevitably gets lost when people do
stupid things and use shit equipment.
C: Well that's the fault of their own. You can't trust ANY media w/irreplaceable
data. People don't back up, won't back up. They're just lazy and stupid. Many
more people are using computers these days (for a variety of tasks, some legitimate, many
not so), and didn't take the time to learn, or just weren't taught the essentials
of data manipulation, or just don't care. You can't necessarily blame the
manufacturers for the directions they take. They have to remain fluid, engineers have to
maintain their significance, etc.
? And then they go out and buy the same shit equipment the next time.
C: Not if they get burned enough. Or are told repeatedly they need to back up crucial
data.
??? I'm all for reliability, when it counts. But gone are the days of the dollar
floppy disk that last years and years and years. Astounding devices they were. But times
change :(
? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
11:38 a.m.
New subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics
On 12/24/2012 02:28 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
No. I want quality stuff that doesn't just blow up. I do not accept
the "throw-away society". And you know what? That's working just fine
for me.
C: Now you
could say the industry is just giving the consumer what
they want.
One could. But the problem here is that the consumers are too
clueless to know what they NEED, and in the Wal*Mart Nation, "cheaper
is better", even when it isn't, and the industry is all too willing
to oblige.
This is not a good thing overall.
C: Yes and no. While my overall feelings are mostly inline w/yours,
sometimes market forces serve to bring prices down. Maybe that's a
bad thing at times, because it breeds contempt for the tools we use.
Rather then having to spend 3000$ for a capable machine, you spend
300$, and if it craps the bed or gets stolen, just replace it. You
never even have the opportunity nor the desire to know the machine.
Computers bore me these days. I don't know what it is. Much of it is
geared towards stupid games and whatnot. C: Well that's the fault of their own. You
can't trust ANY media
w/irreplaceable data. People don't back up, won't back up. They're
just lazy and stupid. Many more people are using computers these days
(for a variety of tasks, some legitimate, many not so), and didn't
take the time to learn, or just weren't taught the essentials of data
manipulation, or just don't care. You can't necessarily blame the
manufacturers for the directions they take. They have to remain
fluid, engineers have to maintain their significance, etc.
Yup.
And then they go out and buy the same shit equipment
the next time.
C: Not if they get burned enough. Or are told repeatedly they need to
back up crucial data.
Have you tried this? Eventually you get "I know, I KNOW!! I will
next time." ...and they still don't.
I'm all for reliability, when it counts. But gone
are the days of the
dollar floppy disk that last years and years and years. Astounding
devices they were. But times change :(
If we allow them to. If mine has to be the very last voice of sanity
demanding QUALITY in this industry, so be it.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
12:11 p.m.
New subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
C: Now you could say the industry is just giving the
consumer what
they want.
The industry is just giving the consumer what the industry
told them that they want
C: the consumer had to be told that they wanted moderately useful stuff for low prices???
There's no reasons for manufacturers to lower their prices but for market
forces/competition. Quality suffers, but what can you expect? A person shows up at Target,
sees a 16 gig thumb drive for, I don't know, 10 bucks, they say "WOW, I can
afford that!". And buy it. It's simple economics. Sure companies like Microshaft
work hard to try to tell us what we need, and are successful some of the time, but
we're talking about hardware here.
3:32 p.m.
New subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics
On Mon, 24 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
C: the consumer had to be told that they wanted
moderately useful stuff
for low prices???
No, they were told that "it's all the same, BUY THE
CHEAPEST"
It's simple economics. Sure companies like
Microshaft work hard to try
It's no longer MicroSloth?
"MicroShaft" is pretty good!
7:28 p.m.
New subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics
I actually had someone wondering if I knew their real name once. I switched between
microshaft (also for radioshaft) and macrosoft which was more technically accurate.
Funny list of acronyms here
http://www.citehr.com/72094-nick-names-some-hitech-companies-funny.html
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 15:32:16
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics
On Mon, 24 Dec 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
C: the consumer had to be told that they wanted
moderately useful stuff
for low prices???
No, they were told that "it's all the same, BUY THE
CHEAPEST"
It's simple economics. Sure companies like
Microshaft work hard to try
It's no longer MicroSloth?
"MicroShaft" is pretty good!
22 Dec
22 Dec
11:39 a.m.
New subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics
On 12/22/2012 11:09 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
So...where can we get older long-life-expectancy
flash drives? I
don't care if they're less capacious; I need to sneakernet small groups
of files around occasionally, not swap copies of my entire movie collection.
Apacer is a maker of industrial SLC flash pen drives. You can get them
through Mouser and other dealers. Just check the specs, as Apacer also
offers MLC drives.
--Chuck
11:50 a.m.
New subject: Flash longevity, was Re: Kerrville, TX warehouse pics
On 12/22/2012 02:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Oh, nice! Thanks!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
So...where
can we get older long-life-expectancy flash drives? I
don't care if they're less capacious; I need to sneakernet small groups
of files around occasionally, not swap copies of my entire movie
collection.
Apacer is a maker of industrial SLC flash pen drives. You can get them
through Mouser and other dealers. Just check the specs, as Apacer also
offers MLC drives.
4332
days inactive
4335
days old
19 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
barythrin＠gmail.com -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
rampaginggreenhulk＠yahoo.com -
spectre＠floodgap.com