21 Apr
1999
21 Apr
'99
12:57 p.m.
I suppose that's true, Hans, BUT, in1982, there were few other processors
than the 6502 and Z-80 in popular use, with the exception of the 8080A and
the 8085, of course. The majority of home computers, though, used one of
these two, at that time. Several years later, we found the 6510 and 6809 in
commercially interesting applications, but not for as long a period as the
Z-80 and 6502. These two had a life of nearly ten years before the IBM-PC
and its clones wrenched the home computer market from their grasp.
My last, albeit not "commercial" application was designed with a pair of
65C02's (just under 5MHz) and a pair of 8751's in '86. The 6502 and Z-80
made their appearance in '76, as I recall, though there may have been a few
out in '75. The big 6502 rollout was in '76, though.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing
> While your comments are valid observations, I
submit, however, that we're
> coming at this from two different viewpoints. I wish to address the
> question "Which processor is faster, 6502 or Z-80?" while you want a
general
comparison of
processors. Unfortunately, answering one question doesn't
address the other.
The 6502 vs. Z80 is only a subplot in the all CPU question - so
if the measurement does fit the general question it also fits
the specific. In fact, if we go for the general thing, the rules
will be much more aprobiate then when we only focuse on two
examples.
Gruss
H.
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HRK 
21 Apr
21 Apr
3:28 p.m.
New subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing...
On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote:
I suppose that's true, Hans, BUT, in1982, there
were few other processors
than the 6502 and Z-80 in popular use, with the exception of the 8080A and
the 8085, of course.
In it's first couple of years, the IBM PC (introduced 8/11/1981) sold
enough machines that surely the 8088 could have been said to be in popular
use!
[this is a comment about market, NOT an endorsement]
The majority of home computers, though, used one of
these two, at that time. Several years later, we found the 6510 and 6809 in
commercially interesting applications, but not for as long a period as the
Z-80 and 6502. These two had a life of nearly ten years before the IBM-PC
and its clones wrenched the home computer market from their grasp.
10 years?
Does this imply that the PC was not the dominant force until the end of
the 80s?
[this is a comment about market, NOT an endorsement]
3:42 p.m.
New subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing...
On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote:
I'd have to agree with this. PCs were designed for business, so they lagged
far behind other machines in things home users tended to want - color,
sound, and so on. About the turn of the decade was when they really started
to become dominant in the home computing world, wrenching it away from the
C64/Amiga/Mac/Apple2/Atari/etc market. The last survivor was the Radio Shack
Color Computer - sort of appropriate, since they marketed the first personal
computer in the TRS-80 model 1. Note that this also is strictly the US market.
The world market is quite different and I know zip about it.
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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I suppose that's true, Hans, BUT, in1982,
there were few other processors
than the 6502 and Z-80 in popular use, with the exception of the 8080A and
the 8085, of course.
In it's first couple of years, the IBM PC (introduced 8/11/1981) sold
enough machines that surely the 8088 could have been said to be in popular
use!
[this is a comment about market, NOT an endorsement]
The majority of home computers, though, used one
of
these two, at that time. Several years later, we found the 6510 and 6809 in
commercially interesting applications, but not for as long a period as the
Z-80 and 6502. These two had a life of nearly ten years before the IBM-PC
and its clones wrenched the home computer market from their grasp.
10 years?
Does this imply that the PC was not the dominant force until the end of
the 80s?
[this is a comment about market, NOT an endorsement] 
4:12 p.m.
New subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing...
On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Jim Strickland wrote:
C64/Amiga/Mac/Apple2/Atari/etc market. The last
survivor was the Radio Shack
Color Computer - sort of appropriate, since they marketed the first personal
computer in the TRS-80 model 1. Note that this also is strictly the US market.
Bahahaha. Ok, come clean: you were really joking, right?
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0!
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 04/03/99]
4:31 p.m.
New subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing...
On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Jim Strickland wrote:
Heh. No. I got my first PC in 1990. 386s had just come out, but an XT was
still a useful machine because nothing really made use of 32 bit computing
at the time. Its CGA graphics were grossly inferior to the Commodore 64
I sold to get it, and it had no sound at all except a few pathetic beeps.
A loaded 386 of the day might have had EGA graphics and a meg or two of ram,
and a sound board (I THINK soundblasters were out in 1990) but it would have
been a multi-thousand dollar machine, and it would have spent its day running
DOS and DOS programs really fast. (mighty 16 mhz?)
At the time software was just starting to be made that wasn't also immidately
ported to the apple2 and commodore platforms, and the mac software world was
starting to really pick up.
And I seem to remember the color computer hardware going on final clearance at
Radio Shack as late as 1994.
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
C64/Amiga/Mac/Apple2/Atari/etc market. The last
survivor was the Radio Shack
Color Computer - sort of appropriate, since they marketed the first personal
computer in the TRS-80 model 1. Note that this also is strictly the US market.
Bahahaha. Ok, come clean: you were really joking, right?
4:47 p.m.
New subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing...
On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Jim Strickland wrote:
Heh. No. I got my first PC in 1990. 386s had just come out, but an XT was
still a useful machine because nothing really made use of 32 bit computing
at the time. Its CGA graphics were grossly inferior to the Commodore 64
I sold to get it, and it had no sound at all except a few pathetic beeps.
No, I was referring to your comment of the TRS-80 M1 being the "first
personal computer". We won't argue about the definition of "personal
computer", but for the sake of this discussion, the Apple ][ and Commodore
PET were both introduced in April 1977 at the first West Coast Computer
Faire. The TRS-80 M1 was introduced in August of 1977.
Of course, the Sol-20 predated all three by almost a year.
C64/Amiga/Mac/Apple2/Atari/etc market. The last
survivor was the Radio Shack
Color Computer - sort of appropriate, since they marketed the first personal
computer in the TRS-80 model 1. Note that this also is strictly the US market.
Bahahaha. Ok, come clean: you were really joking, right? At the time software was just starting to be made that
wasn't also immidately
ported to the apple2 and commodore platforms, and the mac software world was
starting to really pick up.
In 1990 almost no new software was being made for the Apple ][.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0!
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 04/03/99]
4:59 p.m.
New subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing...
No, I was referring to your comment of the TRS-80 M1 being the "first
personal computer". We won't argue about the definition of "personal
computer", but for the sake of this discussion, the Apple ][ and Commodore
PET were both introduced in April 1977 at the first West Coast Computer
Faire. The TRS-80 M1 was introduced in August of 1977.
Really? I stand corrected then. I always assumed the TRS-80 came out before
the A2 and the PET. And I should have specified first commercially sold
ready-to-use personal computer. And I might have been wrong even with that.
Would you believe first computer I ever saw for sale? :)
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
5:05 p.m.
New subject: And what were the 80s like for you? (Was: z80 timing...
On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Jim Strickland wrote:
Yes, you would have, as the Apple ][ and PET match that description as
well. Even the Sol-20.
Check this excellent timeline out for updating your microcomputer history
knowledge:
http://www1.islandnet.com/~kpolsson/comphist.htm
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0!
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 04/03/99]
No, I was
referring to your comment of the TRS-80 M1 being the "first
personal computer". We won't argue about the definition of "personal
computer", but for the sake of this discussion, the Apple ][ and Commodore
PET were both introduced in April 1977 at the first West Coast Computer
Faire. The TRS-80 M1 was introduced in August of 1977.
Really? I stand corrected then. I always assumed the TRS-80 came out before
the A2 and the PET. And I should have specified first commercially sold
ready-to-use personal computer. And I might have been wrong even with that.
5:40 p.m.
New subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s
The first computer that I bought was a TRS-80 (they were NOT called "Model
1" in those days). To ME, the "first PCs" were S100. But that stuff is
all subjective!
EVERYBODY has a certain point in time representing the first personal
computer that they saw advertised that THEY seriously considered buying.
(sometimes slightly preceeding the first one that they BOUGHT). THAT
point in time is what they associate with "the FIRST PC".
There is normally an acknowledgement that there EXISTED other machines
before that, but those were "not really USABLE yet." And therefore,
"don't count". I was well aware of the existence of other previous
machines, but they didn't really count for me until S100. Therefore,
"generic S100" was the "FIRST PC" in MY timeline. But the TRS-80 was
the
first one in my price range. After lusting after multi-thousand dollar
machines for a while, I was able to get a new TRS-80 for $399 (by skipping
their monitor and recorder). I didn't know how to get an Apple for <$1K.
That point in time will certainly vary from one person to another. But
that basic understanding of what is meant by "the FIRST PC" is why so many
of the PC-Week type of "timeline"s start with the AT, Lotus, and
WordPervert. (There was a guy on CM a while back who was attributing the
development of the 640K boundary and memory mapped video to Lotus!) And
it is why "history"s by folks like Cringely will normally closely follow
their personal interests, and barely notice other branches that they
hadn't been interested in at the time.
So, DRI dropped "Intergalctic" before the IBM PC. C'mon folks, there must
be SOME way that I can blame IBM for the loss of humor in microcomputers!
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
6:28 p.m.
New subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s
On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
The first computer that I bought was a TRS-80 (they
were NOT called "Model
1" in those days). To ME, the "first PCs" were S100. But that stuff is
all subjective!
EVERYBODY has a certain point in time representing the first personal
computer that they saw advertised that THEY seriously considered buying.
(sometimes slightly preceeding the first one that they BOUGHT). THAT
point in time is what they associate with "the FIRST PC".
Ok, you asked for it.
http://www.blinkenlights.com/pc.shtml
This should answer the question "What was the first personal computer?"
once and for all.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0!
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 04/03/99]
7:02 p.m.
New subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s
Ok, you asked for it.
http://www.blinkenlights.com/pc.shtml
This should answer the question "What was the first personal computer?"
once and for all.
Ah, but what was the first Microcomputer (including at least a monitor with
bitmap display, some sort of disk or floppy drive, as standard features,
and 'personal' in nature)?
Or what would your definition of Micocomputer be? I suppose we have to
establish that first. graphic monitor and floppy drive, with hard drive
optional, would seem a good start.
-Lawrence LeMay
7:25 p.m.
New subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s
On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote:
Ah, but what was the first Microcomputer (including at
least a monitor with
bitmap display, some sort of disk or floppy drive, as standard features,
and 'personal' in nature)?
Or what would your definition of Micocomputer be? I suppose we have to
establish that first. graphic monitor and floppy drive, with hard drive
optional, would seem a good start.
Forget it. Its a waste of time.
Really.
There are better things to be discussing. This issue hasn't been resolved
in the past, and it never will be, as long as humans choose to have
differing opinions.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0!
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 04/03/99]
22 Apr
22 Apr
2:13 a.m.
New subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s
Ah, but what was the first Microcomputer (including at
least a monitor with
bitmap display, some sort of disk or floppy drive, as standard features,
and 'personal' in nature)?
Since you've ruled out vector displays, the earliest one I used was a PDP-8/e
with a VT8-E raster display interface and an RK02 disk (or was it RK03?).
First available in 1971 if memory serves, though I didn't use it until the
late 70s.
10:10 a.m.
New subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s
Ah, but what
was the first Microcomputer (including at least a monitor with
bitmap display, some sort of disk or floppy drive, as standard features,
and 'personal' in nature)?
Since you've ruled out vector displays, the earliest one I used was a PDP-8/e
with a VT8-E raster display interface and an RK02 disk (or was it RK03?).
First available in 1971 if memory serves, though I didn't use it until the
late 70s.
11:50 a.m.
New subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s
The video display didnt come with all PDP-8/e computers as a standard feature.
PDP-8/e systems were Minicomputers, typically rack mounted. And yes,
i realize some cpu units were integrated into small tabletop lab units,
it still stretches the imagination to refer to a particular gutted down
configuration of a minicomputer, as a microcomputer.
You've obviously never seen a edusystem. As to gutted down, you're really
misinformed.
I would think that either a raster graphics capable
monitor would
have to come with the computer, or it would have to use a TV as its
standard console (with the video display circuitry built-in as standard
Get real. You obviously define microcomputers by the display system.
generally anthing that used a TV was too low res for any test work and
most at best looked poor. Any serious work other than games is nto
considered.
Try an 8E, 12k core, Vt05 termial and a TD8e Dectape running an OS an
languages. ALL ON A DESK TOP. During that timeframe there were smaller
machiness all predating the PC concept.
Allison
12:25 p.m.
New subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s
The video display didnt come with all PDP-8/e computers as a standard feature.
PDP-8/e systems were Minicomputers, typically rack mounted. And yes,
i realize some cpu units were integrated into small tabletop lab units,
it still stretches the imagination to refer to a particular gutted down
configuration of a minicomputer, as a microcomputer.
You've obviously never seen a edusystem. As to gutted down, you're really
misinformed. I would think that either a raster graphics
capable monitor would
have to come with the computer, or it would have to use a TV as its
standard console (with the video display circuitry built-in as standard
Get real. You obviously define microcomputers by the display system.
generally anthing that used a TV was too low res for any test work and
most at best looked poor. Any serious work other than games is nto
considered.
Try an 8E, 12k core, Vt05 termial and a TD8e Dectape running an OS an
languages. ALL ON A DESK TOP. During that timeframe there were smaller
machiness all predating the PC concept.
Allison
12:41 p.m.
New subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s
On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote:
<snippage>
... Defining exactly what makes a microcomputer is
a bit difficult. To me, the decmates, the Terak, the trs-80 were all
microcomputers. One possible observation is that they cannot be
mounted in a 19" rack (as many minicomputers can be). Sure, you
can get a minicomputer in a non-rack mount version, but show
me the person or company that bought rack mounted apple ][
microcomputers...
Well, while my (often random) memory seems to recall working on more than
a few Apple ][s sitting on shelfs in 19inch racks...
I can state without reservation that Altairs and IMSAIs were frequently
rack mounted, and MITS/Pertec offered an Altair 8800b 'Business System' in
a desk rack configuration...
Then the Cromemco Z-2 series was designed specifically for rack mount
applications... (I have an example of that one in my collection -
currently in a rack) B^}
...I'm not sure that statement will fly as a defining criteria
-jim
---
jimw(a)computergarage.org
The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the
CBBS/NW on-line archives
>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW
live!
1:47 p.m.
New subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines
On 22 Apr 99, at 12:25, Lawrence LeMay wrote:
a 19" rack (as many minicomputers can be). Sure,
you can get a
minicomputer in a non-rack mount version, but show me the person or
company that bought rack mounted apple ][ microcomputers...
Rack mounted Apple ][! Now that would have been cool! Would
have liked that. ;-)
-----
David Williams - Computer Packrat
dlw(a)trailingedge.com
http://www.trailingedge.com
1:56 p.m.
New subject: Rack mount (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines
Rack mounted Apple ][! Now that would have been cool!
Would
have liked that. ;-)
OT: does anyone have a source for some CHEAP rack mount cases for PCs?
--
Fred Cisin cisin(a)xenosoft.com
XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com
2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366
Berkeley, CA 94710-2219
3:21 p.m.
New subject: Rack mount (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines
On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
I passed by a rack mount unit by Texas Microsystems(?) - passive backplane
and all that - at a recent swapmeet.
- don
Rack mounted
Apple ][! Now that would have been cool! Would
have liked that. ;-)
OT: does anyone have a source for some CHEAP rack mount cases for PCs? --
Fred Cisin cisin(a)xenosoft.com
XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com
2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366
Berkeley, CA 94710-2219
8:07 p.m.
New subject: Rack mount (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines
A friend of mine just got a BUNCH of them. What are they worth? Some of
the cases are empty except for the power supply and others have systems in
them. Some of them even have two systems in them. The ones with systems
have a "mother-board" that really just a back plane, there are no
components on it other than sockets and connectors. The CPU and memory are
all on a plug-in cards similar to how some of the old Zenith computers were
built. The card slots are all standard 16 bit slots and they use regular
cards. Right now most of them have TWO CPU cards, TWO floppy drives, TWO
hard drives, TWO video cards, TWO HP-IB cards and four other data acquision
cards and there's still slots left over. I haven't looked close at the back
plane so I don't know how the two system signals are kept separated. It
looks like regular PC mother boards will fit in these cases too. These are
*NICE* cases with a locking door on the front that covers the floppy
drives, power switch, reset switch, keyboard disable, etc.
Before anyone asks, he probably will be parting these out for the fancy
cards so there may be some cases left over. I'm sure he'll sell the
complete units including the fancy cards but they won't be cheap. (Have you
ever priced a National Instruments GPIO card?)
If anyone is SERIOUSLY interested contact me privately and I'll put you
in touch with him. WARNING: this guy is one of those "professional" surplus
dealers that would rather trash the stuff than sell it too cheap (in his
opinion) so no tire kickers please.
Joe
At 04:16 PM 4/22/99 -0700, you wrote:
Where do we all get in line?
Rack mounted Apple ][! Now that would have been cool!
Would
have liked that. ;-)
OT: does anyone have a source for some CHEAP rack mount cases for PCs?
10:28 p.m.
New subject: Rack mount (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines
On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Mike Ford wrote:
Where do we all get in line?
Should I pick up that Texas Microsystems(?) box if I see it again?
- don
Rack mounted Apple ][! Now that would have been cool!
Would
have liked that. ;-)
OT: does anyone have a source for some CHEAP rack mount cases for PCs? 
4:55 p.m.
New subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines
> a 19" rack (as many minicomputers can be).
Sure, you can get a
> minicomputer in a non-rack mount version, but show me the person or
> company that bought rack mounted apple ][ microcomputers...
Rack mounted Apple ][! Now that would have been cool!
Would
have liked that. ;-)
Has been done - While on military service I had an Apple II,
while two Sergants, also interested into Computers didn't have
the money (I took a bank loan) - so we did clone it - our
first attempt has been a completly hand wired pice on one
board (took just all evenings and weekends for more than
half a year until it was running faultfree), while for the
second was build as Eurocard modules, also hand wired but
way easyer to build - afer that we tried a real clone :)
Gee - 1979/1980 was a great time - it is always preferabel,
if you are a First Private, and your Sergants _need_ you for
their (want-to-have)Computers :)
Gruss
H.
--
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Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
3:09 p.m.
New subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s
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7:08 p.m.
New subject: New toy, IBM 5140
I picked up a nice looking 5140 today, even has a very nice IBM matching
carrying case. The wall wart (ac adapter) though looks wrong, its IBM, but
its small ala 200 MA (I gotta read the numbers, sorry, but I wanted to post
about my new toy right away).
Anybody have details on the AC adapter, i know its model 6820822 from a
dealer ad, but naturally they don't mention the output voltage etc. Looks
like a brick sized unit.
Part of the reason I bought this unit was that I thought a L40 ac adapter I
saw in another place was the correct unit, but now I am not so sure. Help!
It has the manual, but only a couple odd floppies, ie not the essential
ones but word or some such. I checked the IBM Canada web site and
downloaded the boot disc with app picker, but thats about it so far.
25 Apr
25 Apr
7:20 a.m.
New subject: Thinkpad 500 Power Supply
Does anybody have one or know where I can get one?
gene@ehrich
http://www.voicenet.com/~generic
Computer & Video Game Garage Sale
Gene Ehrich
PO Box 209
Marlton NJ
08053-0209
10:29 p.m.
New subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s
On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, William Donzelli wrote:
I found one in a thrift store not too long ago. It was pretty, but they
wanted too much for it, so I passed.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0!
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 04/03/99]
There are
plenty of rackmount micros, though. I've seen rackmount IBM PC
clones.
The 7532 is the real IBM rackmount PC - they are pretty rare.
4:19 p.m.
New subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s
The video display didnt come with all PDP-8/e
computers as a standard feature.
PDP-8/e systems were Minicomputers, typically rack mounted. And yes,
i realize some cpu units were integrated into small tabletop lab units,
it still stretches the imagination to refer to a particular gutted down
configuration of a minicomputer, as a microcomputer.
I would think that either a raster graphics capable monitor would
have to come with the computer, or it would have to use a TV as its
standard console (with the video display circuitry built-in as standard
feature). Sure, there is always going to be some person who manages
OK, so you are trying to figure out what was the earliest microcomputer with
a bitmapped display, that wasn't actually early (since it had to have a
monitor as standard, and other relatively modern features). Seems like
an exercise in futility. Wait a minute, didn't Sellam already point that
out?
By your latest criteria, I guess even an S100 box with a Cromemco Dazzler
can be ruled out. Is there *anything* that meets your criteria before the
Commodore PET? The Apple ][ doesn't, since it didn't come with a monitor.
8:15 p.m.
New subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s
The video
display didnt come with all PDP-8/e computers as a standard feature.
PDP-8/e systems were Minicomputers, typically rack mounted. And yes,
i realize some cpu units were integrated into small tabletop lab units,
it still stretches the imagination to refer to a particular gutted down
configuration of a minicomputer, as a microcomputer.
I would think that either a raster graphics capable monitor would
have to come with the computer, or it would have to use a TV as its
standard console (with the video display circuitry built-in as standard
feature). Sure, there is always going to be some person who manages
OK, so you are trying to figure out what was the earliest microcomputer with
a bitmapped display, that wasn't actually early (since it had to have a
monitor as standard, and other relatively modern features). Seems like
an exercise in futility. Wait a minute, didn't Sellam already point that
out?
By your latest criteria, I guess even an S100 box with a Cromemco Dazzler
can be ruled out. Is there *anything* that meets your criteria before the
Commodore PET? The Apple ][ doesn't, since it didn't come with a monitor.
10:51 p.m.
New subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s
The Apple ][ would qualify, it came with built-in
video.
The Apple ][ did not come with a built-in monitor; a monitor was not even
available from the manufacturer.
The PDP-8/e with VT8-E that I mentioned earlier was shipped by DEC with the
VT8-E installed, and DEC provided a monitor.
You are making distinctions even more arbitrary (IMHO) than most of the
"first PC" arguments. It seems like you are picking your criteria in order
to get an answer you've already selected.
7:59 p.m.
New subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s
On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote:
The video display didnt come with all PDP-8/e
computers as a standard feature.
PDP-8/e systems were Minicomputers, typically rack mounted. And yes,
i realize some cpu units were integrated into small tabletop lab units,
it still stretches the imagination to refer to a particular gutted down
configuration of a minicomputer, as a microcomputer.
I don't think the "micro" in microcomputer ever was intended to represent
its physical size, but rather that it was based on microprocessor
technology.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0!
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[Last web site update: 04/03/99]
1:44 p.m.
New subject: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were th
On 21 Apr 99 at 16:28, Sellam Ismail wrote:
Ok, you asked for it.
http://www.blinkenlights.com/pc.shtml
This should answer the question "What was the first personal computer?"
once and for all.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
GREAT site !! Who is the Doug referenced in the reply to ? He is to be
commended. I see by later posts it is Doug Yowza's page. If you're still
monitoring the list -great job, Doug.
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page.
t3c(a)xoommail.com
Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C
21 Apr
21 Apr
4:57 p.m.
I suppose that's true, Hans, BUT, in1982, there
were few other processors
than the 6502 and Z-80 in popular use, with the exception of the 8080A and
the 8085, of course. The majority of home computers, though, used one of
these two, at that time. Several years later, we found the 6510 and 6809 in
commercially interesting applications, but not for as long a period as the
Z-80 and 6502. These two had a life of nearly ten years before the IBM-PC
and its clones wrenched the home computer market from their grasp.
in 1982, the 9900 was also big and beasts like SC/MP where still on
the run (and 680xx, 808x and 160xx comming up), but you're right if
you want to pich the two mayor player in the SOHO market.
But still, a general measurement includes them.
Gruss
H.
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Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
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allisonp＠world.std.com -
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Hans.Franke＠mch20.sbs.de -
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rigdonj＠intellistar.net -
william＠ans.net