10 Mar
2000
10 Mar
'00
3:24 a.m.
--- Geoff Roberts <geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: <Glenatacme(a)aol.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: The C programming language
> In a message dated 03/09/2000 3:19:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de writes:
>
> > I wouldn't consider C as anything 'grown'. maybe evolved in the
> > sense of degeneration.
>
> Hey, Hans, I don't get this. C is the most versatile, flexible, and
> portable language ever devised. It permits complete control of
> hardware while at the same time allowing elegance in program design
> and structure.
Allowing is the keyword here. I've seen some stuff that just took my
breath away and I've also seen stuff that made me retch.
You forgot to add "and is perfectly
comprehensible to anyone with long
experience in assembly language or machine code."
It's been said that C has all the power of assembler with all the legibility
of assembler. If you've ever taken C and compiled it on a PDP-11 and looked
at the output, you'll quickly notice that many of the "features" of the
language translate to very few instructions - it's assembler shorthand,
essentially. This, to me, is a benfit, not a detriment, but I _like_
assembler, especially PDP-11 MACRO (and it's relatives like the MC68K)
I don't have any Uni level CS under my belt, and
that seems
to be what's needed to comprehend it.
Rubbish. My first language was BASIC (like so many kids in the late 1970s),
followed quickly by 1802 and 6502 machine language (no compiler - stuff
entered in hex), then, about six years after I started programming, C. Working
at SRC in 1984, I saw that we had a UNIX machine nestled amongst the VAXen
running VMS. It was a VAX-11/750 w/2Mb RAM and two RK07 drives. I don't have
the drives (they were discarded in 1992), but I do have _that_ 11/750
(s/n BT000354) now upgraded to 8Mb w/SI9900, Fuji Eagle, etc. We swapped out
different sets of RK07 packs to run various Unices to conform to the
customer's configuration - 4.0BSD, 4.1BSD and SYSIII, IIRC. I still have the
VAX SYSIII tapes somewhere, but who knows if they are still legible after
all this time. Anyway, way back then, I'd heard about UNIX and decided I
wanted a piece of it. I got an account, borrowed a copy of the K&R book
and used it as a reference to write my first C program. It was an
abomination as far as style goes, but it did work - it converted a text table
of board handle numbers into a formatted picture of the contents of all of
our PDP-11 and VAXen, a job I'd do today in perl and probably HTML.
What I've found from personal experience is that to really _learn_ a
programming language, I need a project to keep me going past the learning
cliff. With 6502 assembler, it was hand-compiling Scott Adams' adventure
engine from BASIC (a story I've been happily able to share with him many
years later); with Java, it's my program to calculate sunset/sunrise charts
for my Antarctic web page; with Inform it was translating Zork from MDL. It
can be a monster project or a few dozen K of source, but the important part
is having a motivational goal to complete. I never learned a programming
language in school, only by rolling up my sleeves, going into larval mode
once again and banging out a fun project.
Just for the record, I am very fond of C. Yes, atrocities have been
committed in it, but it's right up there with perl and assembler as
my favorite tools to get the job done. Just be sure that you use the
right tool for the right job.
-ethan
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10 Mar
10 Mar
4:08 a.m.
Ethan <erd(a)iname.com> wrote:
Rubbish. My first language was BASIC (like so many kids in the late 1970s),
followed quickly by 1802 and 6502 machine language (no compiler - stuff
entered in hex), then, about six years after I started programming, C.
Working at SRC in 1984, I saw that we had a UNIX machine nestled
amongst the VAXen running VMS. It was a VAX-11/750 w/2Mb RAM and two
RK07 drives. I don't have the drives (they were discarded in 1992),
but I do have _that_ 11/750
(s/n BT000354) now upgraded to 8Mb w/SI9900, Fuji Eagle, etc. We swapped out
different sets of RK07 packs to run various Unices to conform to the
customer's configuration - 4.0BSD, 4.1BSD and SYSIII, IIRC. I still have the
VAX SYSIII tapes somewhere, but who knows if they are still legible after
all this time. Anyway, way back then, I'd heard about UNIX and decided I
wanted a piece of it. I got an account, borrowed a copy of the K&R book
and used it as a reference to write my first C program. It was an
abomination as far as style goes, but it did work - it converted a text table
of board handle numbers into a formatted picture of the contents of all of
our PDP-11 and VAXen, a job I'd do today in perl and probably HTML.
What I've found from personal experience is that to really _learn_ a
programming language, I need a project to keep me going past the learning
cliff.
The advantage of assembly language is it's closeness to machine
language. As an old hardware guy I can visualize those bits and bytes
in the 11/34 going from the A mux through the ALU...etc.
C's abstraction begins to bore me and it seems a write only language.
Bill
bpechter(a)monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
| Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow?
| BSD: Are you guys coming, or what?
6:09 a.m.
On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 06:24:08AM -0800, Ethan Dicks wrote:
It's been said that C has all the power of
assembler with all the legibility
of assembler.
And I wish people would stop saying it!!! C has *some* of the power of
assembly but it's a lot *less* legible. And for some reason most C code is
99% uncommented to boot...
John Wilson
D Bit
9:22 a.m.
::> It's been said that C has all the power of assembler with all the legibility
::> of assembler.
::
::And I wish people would stop saying it!!! C has *some* of the power of
::assembly but it's a lot *less* legible. And for some reason most C code is
::99% uncommented to boot...
Yeah, isn't it interesting how assembler source is typically well documented?
Except mine. :-)
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)ptloma.edu
-- I like work. I could watch people doing work for hours. --------------------
11:02 a.m.
At 12:09 PM 3/10/00 -0500, John Wilson wrote:
And I wish people would stop saying it!!! C has *some*
of the power of
assembly but it's a lot *less* legible. And for some reason most C code is
99% uncommented to boot...
I suppose it depends on the assembly language. I can write PDP-11 assembler
in C (knowing nearly exactly how the code generator works), but I can't
write VAX assembler in C since there are VAX instructions that don't
represent well. SPARC code is also easy to write C code with as there are
few instructions.
The place where this really comes home is in one of my other hobbies where
I write embedded robotics code in C for microprocessors like the 68HC11.
--Chuck
11:58 a.m.
Chuck: which C do you use for this? I'm still using the free version
of ICC11; I modified Fred Martin's version of crt.s to fit my
needs and have been happily using it for years.
Carlos.
At 02:02 PM 03/10/2000 -0800, you wrote:
I suppose it depends on the assembly language. I can
write PDP-11 assembler
in C (knowing nearly exactly how the code generator works), but I can't
write VAX assembler in C since there are VAX instructions that don't
represent well. SPARC code is also easy to write C code with as there are
few instructions.
The place where this really comes home is in one of my other hobbies where
I write embedded robotics code in C for microprocessors like the 68HC11.
--Chuck
7:47 a.m.
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3:50 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan_dicks(a)yahoo.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2000 12:54 AM
Subject: Re: The C programming language
1970s),
Me too. On a TI99/4A (Which I've still got somewhere) Though it was early
80's,
and I wasn't a kid.
I don't
have any Uni level CS under my belt, and that seems
to be what's needed to comprehend it.
Rubbish. My first language was BASIC (like so many kids in the late followed quickly by 1802 and 6502 machine language (no
compiler - stuff
entered in hex),
Never owned a machine that had one of those.
then, about six years after I started programming, C.
Working
at SRC in 1984,
My first exposure to C was a couple of years ago.
I saw that we had a UNIX machine nestled amongst the
VAXen
running VMS. It was a VAX-11/750 w/2Mb RAM and two RK07 drives. I don't
have
the drives (they were discarded in 1992), but I do
have _that_ 11/750
(s/n BT000354) now upgraded to 8Mb w/SI9900, Fuji Eagle, etc.
You are fortunate in having had access to such systems early in the piece.
My only exposure to computers in a work environment was a tired
Z80 based something or other that we did a little word processing on.
I did some work related stuff on a TI59C programmable calculator,
then similar in TIBASIC. But C wasn't around for the TI and the UCSD
Pascal card/compiler was very expensive. The only 'real' computer I
encountered (obliquely) was the Ferranti mainframe in the Message
Switching Centre downstairs. IIRC, it was a 24 bit system that was
used to handle teleprinter message traffic on the AFTN (Aeronautical
Fixed Telecommunications Network). I have no idea what O/S it ran,
it's secrets were jealously guarded by the Aeronautical Telecommunications
Officers, (Operators in other words). It ran an in house written software
suite to read message headers and route them to their destinations, with
correct priorities, sequencing of msgs so that 'missed' tfc could be
detected
etc etc. Most of the stuff interfaced to it were Siemens Model S100 baudot
teleprinters running at 50, 75, 100 baud. The 100baud ones were not
designed
to run at that speed, but the techs cranked them up by tinkering with the
motors.
In spite of that, they were quite reliable, and only failed about 3 times in
the 5
years I was in the Sydney FSC.
What I've found from personal experience is that
to really _learn_ a
programming language, I need a project to keep me going past the learning
cliff.
I'd agree with that. I certainly wouldn't have gotten into TP without a
particular project
in mind.
I never learned a programming language in school, only
by rolling up my
sleeves,
going into larval mode once again and banging out a
fun project.
Interesting. I got the impression that the knowledgeable C programmers
around
either
a) Worked in a professional computing environment and 'worked their way up'
or
b) Went to university and studied CS there.
or
c) Both.
C doesn't strike me as a language that could be 'self taught' without prior
knowledge of
a lot of things that you don't see outside that kind of environment.
All the books I ever saw on C seemed to expect that you already have a
working knowledge
of data structures architecture of the machine etc etc etc. I don't.
TP was perhaps just better documented for ignorant newbies than C is.
That you have 'self taught' on it regardless indicates otherwise, so I will
revise my opinion.
However I must agree that it does seem to (me at least, and I saw a another
response
to my original post that agreed) to be a "write only" language unless it is
very well commented.
Just for the record, I am very fond of C.
No? Really? ;^)
Yes, atrocities have been
committed in it, but it's right up there with perl and assembler as
my favorite tools to get the job done.
It obviously works for you.
Just be sure that you use the
right tool for the right job.
Always good advice.
Er, I should point out that I don't/didn't intend to start a holy war here,
I'm merely relating my
experiences. We all seem to have our favourites, I guess I like TP because
it was the first 'real'
language (something compiled, not interpreted) I was able to get hold of.
Cheers
Geoff Roberts
Saint Mark's College.
8896
days inactive
8896
days old
7 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cem14＠cornell.edu -
ckaiser＠oa.ptloma.edu -
cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com -
ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com -
geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au -
pechter＠pechter.dyndns.org -
wilson＠dbit.dbit.com