I wonder what the permitting hassles, etc, would be. If you actually listed yourself as a disposal center, you might have to get hazardous waste permits. I also wonder about the economic viability of such an enterprise. People might pay to dispose of old computers if they think they'll be recycled. However, many consumers think because they paid $2500 for a system two years ago that it's still worth $1000. And if a dumpster behind the Circle-K is more convient, well, it may well wind up there. Once you have scrap (and have picked it clean, requiring a secondary warehouse and museum space), can you economically separate the chaff from the wheat? Austin Electronics has about 200 13" VGA displays in the back. They can't toss them, and no one wants to buy them. Do you accept this kind of material? If a person can't dispose the whole kit and kaboodle at one shot, they're much less likely to bother with recycling. Do you hire cheap labor and build systems for homeless people? Strip components and eBay them? Try to do metal separation? I'm not putting down the idea by any means (and I'd love to have such a place to browse), but can one reallistically make some above a subsistence-level enterprise out of it? Are there are cases that are successful? What's the operational cost of such a facility? Are you willing to ship systems? Do you have systems work shipping? I'd want to start a business I can sooner or later oversee, and not sweat next months building payment at the end of the month. --John -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin(a)classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tothwolf Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 13:46 To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Subject: Re: China bans toxic American computer junk On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Joe wrote: I'd like to start something here in Houston, but I currently lack the warehouse space that would be required. It might be good to have places on both coasts and the central US. It certainly might make it easier to ship the big-iron from one coast to the other ;) -Toth

At 02:03 PM 6/8/02 -0400, you wrote: I suspect that you're right. You'd prpobably want to try and locate in an area that wasn't too picky about permits. In addition, you'd probably be carefull about what you did so that you didn't generate hazardous waste and have to start dealing with the EPA. I think that would quickly kill any but the largest business. I know what you mean. But if you deal with busnesses they usually just want the stuff gone. Personally I wouldn't deal with individuals, I MIGHT let them drop stuff at no charge but I wouldn't buy systems (unless it's something special). Besides the unrealistic prices, it would just be too time comsuming. BUT I expect that we'll soon have to PAY to dispose of monitors and electronics just like we have to pay to dispose of auto batteries and tires and that that would encourage a lot of people to just give away the systems. And if a dumpster behind the Circle-K is True but most states have laws and severe fines if you get caught dumping in someone elses dumpster. Yes but it's labor intensive. Austin Electronics has about 200 13" VGA displays in the back. NO! Charge a disposale fee. Just like they do when you buy new tires or a new auto battery. If a person can't dispose the whole kit and kaboodle at one They will if the local dump is going to charge them and the local trash hauler won't accept the stuff. That's currently the situation here with paints, batteries, tires and lots of other stuff. If you're ambitious you'd offer to pick up old systems and recycle/dispose of them at a reasonable cost. I think many folks would take advantage of that simply to avoid the hassle. NO! NO ONE wants those systems! It's ironic but even people with no money want the absolute lastest and greatest and they won't settle for less. Believe me, I've seen churces, big companies like Martin Marietta and even NASA try to find uses for 386/486 type systems and none of them have been successful. Strip Yes, if they contain anything worthwhile. But if you can't get X amount ($20?) then it's not worth the time and hassle. Try to do metal separation? That's what most of them do but it's labor intensive so they hire a bunch of low end workers to do the work. Yes, I know people that do. The owner makes a good living (in fact, most of them make a VERY good living) but the workers are minimum wage types and live accordingly. But you shouldn't feel guilty about that, they'd be in the same or worse condition without your employment. Are there are cases that are Yes, I know of a number of them. What's the operational cost of such a facility? That's a good question. You need a facility with a good amount of space (not necessarily inside) and a couple of good trucks (the bigger the better) and a good forklift is very desirable. Then add dumpsters some wire baskets, some workbenches, etc for separating, storing and handling the stuff. I think that if you could locate in an area with lax zoning, work conditions, etc it would probable be very benfitial. Are you Is the purchaser willing to pay the cost of packing and shipping? On PC systems probably not. Do you have systems work shipping? What? I'd want to Like any other business it would take some initial capital for a building, employees (if any), and equipment. And it would take some time to get the business going and profitable. Joe

Companies must pay to recycle their computers. Most people can just toss them in their trashcan. -- Eric Dittman dittman(a)dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/

Only if you get caught. I've seen people throw away a lot of stuff they shouldn't, and I've seen stuff people have left in parking lots and street corners so they wouldn't have to properly dispose of them. -- Eric Dittman dittman(a)dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/

At 03:35 PM 6/8/02 -0500, Eric wrote: True. So far! But now that China has quite accepting e-scrap we'll soon be awash in it and very soon the trift stores, etc will have more than they can handle and then when they become a plague in the landfills the various agencies will impose a fee to dispose of them exactly as they do for batteries, tires and other items. My guess is that by this time next year we'll see the beginnings of various disposal/haz mat fees. And I further predict that they will be widespread within three years (when has the government ever refused a new source of revenue!) Joe PS Isn't this an interesting twist to the list? We're supposed to be talking about acquiring old computers and here we are talking about disposal problems! I guess it's a sign of how prevalent they've become.

On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Eric Dittman wrote: Speaking of which, I have quite a few pounds of nicads I need to get recycled. Can anyone here recommend a company for that? -Toth

At 09:02 PM 6/8/02 -0500, you wrote: I'm not sure they will take NiCads. But the companies that re-build battery packs (like TNR, Batteries Plus) should. I KNOW that TNR takes them. Joe

Drop in to your local Fire Department and ask. They know more about hazmats than the average person, and could further direct you. Where I live there's two annual open collection days when you can just give your hazmats right to them. (I expect you've been to your local dump already?) John A.

On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Eric Dittman wrote: Maybe where you live, but not so any longer in California and a handful of other states, and soon to be the norm in ALL states (so dump everything you can forsee not wanting in the next couple of years now to avoid the charges). CRTs are deemed to be toxic waste in California, along with a host of other consumer electronics. And I really don't want to hear some weenie sneering about California's hippyish environmental policies. This is coming to your state EPA soon. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

At 11:24 AM 6/8/2002 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: Yes, especially because of businesses that regularly need to dispose of computers in the proper way, not to mention waste pickup services who will begin to refuse monitors and high-tech scrap. - John

William Donzelli wrote: If it goes into the dumpster, how does it get to a scrapper? Don't most garbage trucks go directly to the dump, from the street? I can see special arangements being made for large quatitys but for the average company or Joe who suddenly decides today is the day to pitch the old computers, I doubt they end up at the scrapper. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA

William, I hope you don't take this personally but you don't have a clue about what you're talking about! At 08:33 PM 6/9/02 -0400, William wrote: Not when it's <2 microns thick and only <40% gold! Compare that to 25+ micron thickness and 85% gold used in HP and other high end equipment. The other materials used in most modern computers are of a similar LOW quality but I won't debate that now. Mild steel (minus rust) is pretty much mild steel. Aluminum I guess that depends on what your idea of "extract" is. They might extract 98% of the USEFULL (ie profitable) material but LARGE amount still go to landfills and a LOT of other places were they can dump it without being caught. Hell, one of my best scrounging locations is an illegal dump. Steve Robertson, Mike Haas and a couple of other members of this list can verify that if you like. Not everything that goes there is worhtless :-) Basically, all that is Almost certainly but newspaper are hardly an environmental hazard. Hell, I don't THINK Aluminium cans are either even if they do linger around for the next century. Ha, Ha, Ha, Roll on the floor laughing hysteriacally! Wipes tears from eyes. You don't honestly believe that do you????? Big companies sell/give their surplus to fly-by-night companies that PROMISE to recycle it but once they get it it's another story. It's no different from when numerous toxic waste producers "sold" their waste to third party companies for "proper disposal" that usually meant finding the nearest empty field and dumping it or sometimes just opening the valve and driving down the road till everything "leaked" out. Believe me, I worked for one such company for a few weeks when they were short handed. They had a contract to get ALL of the equipment from a LARGE U.S. electronics corporation whose name I can't reveal. But lets just call them M, OK? As long as M was assured that the company would ATTEMPT to recycle as much material as PRACTICLE (ie PROFITABLE) they were happy. Of course by the time that M reported on their "recycling plan" to the public, the public was assured that M was "recycling" 100% of their surplus and scrap material. All "100% recycled" meant to them was that 100% was transferred to someone else. In the end the whole thing collasped because there were too many back door deals going on at M and nearly all of the usefull equipment disappeared before going to the disposal company. They were left with nothing but unwanted computers, broken test equipment, TONS of scrap plastic and circuit boards and the like, all of it nearly worthless. We sold what we could, gave away piles more and dumped 99% of the computers into not only our dumpster but also those of several surrounding businesses. I got a number of HP computers from them but threw hundreds of others into the dumpsters. Sure, they get tossed into a Obviously you don't know anything about the scrap or trash businesses. Scrap dealers collected usable items in THEIR OWN TRUCKS, 100%* of the stuff in the dumpsters was picked up by the trash companies and went directly to the landfill. *Unless a dumpster diver got to it first but that was seldom since nothing that had any value was thrown away. We had dumpster divers but even they didn't want the stuff that we threw out. Likewise, *most* computers left on the streets (with the You OBVIOUSLY know nothing about dumps and the trash business.. (1) the drivers are usually too ignorant to know what's worth anything and much too busy to have the time to worry about it. (2) dumps don't put out anything, it ALL goes into the landfill. I once asked some dump employees if they ever took any of the stuff home and they told that they were NOT allowed to and that they had been warned that they WOULD be fired IMMEDIATELY if they were ever caught taking ANYTHING from the trash. (3) The dumps/landfills and their employees have NO connection with the scrappers. They don't even know who they are or that they even exist. I know because I questioned them when I was trying to find scrap places. It saves them money, even if they get nothing for it Wrong again. It could potenially save them money of dump fees but it would cost them a lot more for the manpower, space and equipment needed to soft the stuff. In addition, the dump trucks have compactors built into them so that they can crush and compact the trash as they collect it so that they can carry more in the truck. Go outside and watch one sometime. If they intended to sort the stuff they won't be able to compact it would they? TANTALUM? Show me some Tantalum in a modern PC! HIGH grade gold fingers (edge connctors) from circuit boards USED to be worth about 1 cent per contact. But the PC quality fingers are of a lot lower quality (and value) and in addition gold has dropped 2/3 in value in the last couple of years. NONE of the places that I've been to in the last year or two even bother to cut them off and save them any more. And a location with VERY lax environmental laws (NJ seems to be a favorite!) so that they can dispose of the waste that they create when they extract the worthwhile materials. You may be right up to a point. But OTOH we aren't likely to pay the cost of disassembling the stuff and removing the tubes and then disposing of them as hazardous waste and still GIVE the stuff to China are we? So will sending the other remains to China be economicly feasable? Probably not. Furthermore, the tubes aren't the only hazardous material in the e-scrap. Go back and read the article that started this thread. Burning wire and plastic to recover the metals creates toxic fumes, the heavy metals such as cadnium, nickel and lead pollute the land and water, manually breaking the glass and plastic is a hazard to the workers and I'm sure that there are other problems that we haven't even thought of so it looks to me like the days of dumping the stuff in China or other third world countries are over with. Joe