13 Apr
2000
13 Apr
'00
11:53 a.m.
I've been sorting through a large pile of Shugart 800's and 801's here,
and many of them have goo on the head stepper lead screw. It looks
like white lithium grease, undoubtedly put there by a previous owner
or all-thumbs tech, as the Shugart manuals say (section 3.3):
Do not lubricate the SA800/801; oil will allow dust and dirt to
accumulate.
However the goo got there on the leadscrew, it's so thick now that it's
quite difficult to turn it - not only is the stepper motor not up to the
job, I can barely turn it by hand in some cases.
I have found that "Liquid Wrench" (yes, that stuff you get at the auto
parts store) does a pretty good job of at least softening the goo temporarily,
enough so that I can actually run the drive through diagnostics,
but eventually the solvents evaporate and I'm left with thick goo. Is
there an easy way to clean this goo off without completely disassembling
the stepper motor/leadscrew assembly and doing the subsequent realignment?
I can go in and do a half-assed job of cleaning the goo off the threads
with Q-tips and skewers, but there's really a lot there and this doesn't
get it all.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
13 Apr
13 Apr
1:06 p.m.
When they say "do not lubricate ..." they're not lying! The grit and grime
that finds its way into the leadscrew will act as lapping compound and
abrade the lead screw, which in most of the newer lead-screw-driven
mechanisms is plastic, and soon, you'll have a drive with too much backlash
on the lead screw, which will result in positioning error, depending on the
direction in which the lead screw was last moved. I would probably feel
comfortable cleaning out the gunk with a penetrating oil wuch as what you
mentioned, but I would vigorously pursue the problem of getting the rest of
the sticky residue out with a volatile solvent.
That, in turn, threatens to soften the plastic head-assembly, part of which
is the "nut" for the lead screw, so don't get any of the benzene or methyl
alcohol, or acetone, on the plastic parts, lest they soften and change their
shape.
I'd suggest that you look at the service manual and consider whether this
bothers you enough to warrant going through the painstaking process of
disassembling and cleaning the head transports in order to get rid of the
grease. If you're careful, you might find a way to brush out the threads,
but they'll continue to accumulate dirt and grit so long as you have grease
on the "nut" which is part of the head assembly. The only sure way is to
disassemble and clean them such that they don't have a place for the grease
to hide.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 10:53 AM
Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's?
I've been sorting through a large pile of Shugart
800's and 801's here,
and many of them have goo on the head stepper lead screw. It looks
like white lithium grease, undoubtedly put there by a previous owner
or all-thumbs tech, as the Shugart manuals say (section 3.3):
Do not lubricate the SA800/801; oil will allow dust and dirt to
accumulate.
However the goo got there on the leadscrew, it's so thick now that it's
quite difficult to turn it - not only is the stepper motor not up to the
job, I can barely turn it by hand in some cases.
I have found that "Liquid Wrench" (yes, that stuff you get at the auto
parts store) does a pretty good job of at least softening the goo
temporarily,
enough so that I can actually run the drive through
diagnostics,
but eventually the solvents evaporate and I'm left with thick goo. Is
there an easy way to clean this goo off without completely disassembling
the stepper motor/leadscrew assembly and doing the subsequent realignment?
I can go in and do a half-assed job of cleaning the goo off the threads
with Q-tips and skewers, but there's really a lot there and this doesn't
get it all.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
1:11 p.m.
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2:33 p.m.
I can't imagine anyone being concerned about 3-1/2" drives, but with these
old 8" drives it is risky to put greasy lubricant on the lead screw. If you
do need to lubricate the nut, then do so with some powered molybdenum
disufide. That's what they put in grease to make it slippery, and it does
well without the grease. If you put that on the nut and leadscrew,
remembering that the nut is steel and the leadscrew is some form of
polycarbonate, I'd say that doing everything to clean the leadscrew and nut
that is available to you, then lubing it with a LIGHT coat of (one drop for
every three drives) of WD40, then adding about 1/4 tsp of moly-disulfide,
will probably do the trick. If they ever get sticky, clean and relube the
lead screw and nut this way. Moly-disulfide is MUCH more slippery than
graphite. It's also not in the least bit abrasive.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: Lubing Shugart 800,801's?
temporarily,
I've been sorting through a large pile of Shugart 800's and 801's here,
and many of them have goo on the head stepper lead screw. It looks
like white lithium grease, undoubtedly put there by a previous owner
or all-thumbs tech, as the Shugart manuals say (section 3.3):
Do not lubricate the SA800/801; oil will allow dust and dirt to
accumulate.
This being the same manual that tells you not to clean the heads....
Seriously, while excessive lubrication, and lubrication in the wrong
place, will cause all sorts of problems, I am convinced that carefully
lubriacting leadscrews (and cleaning off old lubricant and replacing it)
will reduce wear. Ditto for spindle bearings.
FWIW, every other drive manufacture's service manual for drives with
leadscrews that I have suggests that you lubricate these leadscrews
(Sony, Teac, etc).
However the goo got there on the leadscrew,
it's so thick now that it's
quite difficult to turn it - not only is the stepper motor not up to the
job, I can barely turn it by hand in some cases.
Ouch... Somebody used the wrong lubricant....
>
> I have found that "Liquid Wrench" (yes, that stuff you get at the auto
> parts store) does a pretty good job of at least softening the goo
Most greases disolve in propan-2-ol (aka head cleaner ;-)). That's what I
normally use to shift old lubricant from such positions.
If it's not too bad, then you can often remove it using propan-2-ol and a
q-tip (cotton bud). If it's turned to glue then you have to dismantle
things. And IIRC the SA800 is nasty because you have to lose alignment
when you do this (unlike some smaller drives where you can slip the head
carriage sideways off the leadscrew).
> enough so that I can actually run the drive through diagnostics,
> but eventually the solvents evaporate and I'm left with thick goo. Is
> there an easy way to clean this goo off without completely disassembling
> the stepper motor/leadscrew assembly and doing the subsequent
realignment?
I think you're pretty much stuck with having to do a full alignment :-(
-tony
6:15 p.m.
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7:43 p.m.
On Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 12:15:14AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
Really? I've seen double-speed drives listed by some of the diskette
duplicator vendors, they're very expensive though (well, a lot of them
also have duplicate head electronics for writing both sides at once).
Maybe it's all old stock though...
John Wilson
D Bit
I can't
imagine anyone being concerned about 3-1/2" drives, but with these
I am when they're the (old) 600 rpm 3.5" drives. Those are almost
impossible to obtain (AFAIK they're not made any more)
14 Apr
14 Apr
1:09 p.m.
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3:11 p.m.
New subject: Shugart SA-900 Pinout?
Hi All
Does anyone have this pinout of the connector for this?
Help!!!
Dwight
4:57 p.m.
On Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 07:09:27PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
OK, maybe they are still made for special
applications, but you sure
can't get them in the local PC shop. And they're not exactly cheap.
It's a shame too, who *wouldn't* like faster floppies? And I really don't
understand why 2.88 MB floppies fizzled, they didn't even last long enough
for the prices to come down. Anyway, even the current models of Sony Mavica
digital cameras use double-speed 1.44 MB drives, but of course they'd never fit
a normal case (even if they had the 34-pin connectors inside, which I'm sure
they don't), and the cost to buy one as a replacement part is probably huge.
The folks who made my floppy duplicator machine claim they roll their own
double-head drives (i.e. can read/write/format both heads at the same time)
by just stealing the analog board off a second FD235 and sticking it onto
another drive. It would be a blast to give that a try, you'd need two FDCs
(or one of the expensive ones designed for duplication) and a fancy driver but
that would be fun to write, and it would be a neat way to double the speed.
It's so satisfying when you can find a way to beat excellent performance
out of lame hardware.
John Wilson
D Bit
6:21 p.m.
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3:28 a.m.
Applied sparingly as part of the process of applying the moly-disulfide
lubricant (powder) I've had good results with the WD-40, I believe for the
precise reason that it "goes away" after a time. That's not good if you
want it to lubricate over the long-term, but if you just want to aid in
smooting out the moly-disulfide powder, I think it's all right.
You're probably right about the 600 RPM drives, but I'm curious what sort of
controller you use with them.
Most 3-1/2" drives are hardly worth fiddling with. They're a pain to
disassemble and you can buy them for less that $15 US. I hate to buy
replacements for something I could fix, but I've not found it worthwhile to
fiddle with the 3-1/2" drives.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: Lubing Shugart 800,801's?
>
> I can't imagine anyone being concerned about 3-1/2" drives, but with
these
I am when they're the (old) 600 rpm 3.5" drives. Those are almost
impossible to obtain (AFAIK they're not made any more) and I seem to get
a reasonable number on my bench to repair. And the Sony service manual
certainly tells you to lubricate them.
> old 8" drives it is risky to put greasy lubricant on the lead screw. If
you
I don't see why it's necessarily worse for 8" drives. Yes, you should use
the right lubricant (I use a special plastic grease from Electrolube) and
you need to clean/relubricate the screw every couple of years at least.
But if you do that you'll have no problems.
> do need to lubricate the nut, then do so with some powered molybdenum
> disufide. That's what they put in grease to make it slippery, and it
does
> well without the grease. If you put that on the
nut and leadscrew,
> remembering that the nut is steel and the leadscrew is some form of
> polycarbonate, I'd say that doing everything to clean the leadscrew and
nut
All my drives have a metal leadscrew and a plastic nut...
> that is available to you, then lubing it with a LIGHT coat of (one drop
for
> every three drives) of WD40, then adding about
1/4 tsp of
moly-disulfide,
Argh!! WD40 is _NOT_ a lubricant.
I have a minor-ish interest in (mechanical) clocks. And one of the things
that really gums up a clock is to spray it with WD40. The lighter oils
evaporate and leave a waxy deposit behind that sticks things solid. And
it's difficult to remove.
Please don't use WD40 on a floppy drive.
-tony
2:02 p.m.
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15 Apr
15 Apr
9:37 p.m.
New subject: 600 RPM 3.5 inch drives (was Re: Lubing Shugart 800,801's?)
Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I've seen these 600rpm drives used by both HP
(9114A 9114B, 9121, 9122,
9123, 9133, etc) and Apricot.
I have an HP "Pompard" prototype disk drive, made in spring of 1984.
It's a dual 3.5 inch drive in a 9121-like case, but with an HP-IL
interface rather than HP-IB. It's not battery powered, but I believe
that the HP 9114A was derived from this design.
There are jumpers in the unit for one drive or two, and for
single- or dual-head drives. But it's not apparently which way
the jumper setting for the heads is, and I can't see enough through
the flap to tell if there are two heads by visual inspection.
The drives are Sony model OA-D32W. Does anyone know from that model
number whether they are single- or dual-head?
Thanks!
Eric
16 Apr
16 Apr
12:55 p.m.
New subject: 600 RPM 3.5 inch drives (was Re: Lubing Shugart 800,801's?)
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17 Apr
17 Apr
4:29 p.m.
Hi Tony,
There are 2 main flavours of such drives....
The later drive is about the same size as a normal PC
3.5" drive
and has a 34 pin connector, the pinout of which is _similar_ to normal
PC drives. Sometimes the power is carried over this connector....
Do you know where I can find the pinout of these drives?
I have a few such drives which came with my Xens, your earlier mention of
them being able to operate on 8" floppy controllers makes me wonder about
using them with my Interak.
TTFN - Pete.
--
Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer.
Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC)
peter.pachla(a)wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk
--
6:18 p.m.
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13 Apr
13 Apr
2:05 p.m.
Tim,
I have used spray carburator cleaner for cleaning dried up grease off of
HP floppy drives. You might give it a try. Be carefull, it will dissolve
some plastics.
Joe
At 12:53 PM 4/13/00 -0400, you wrote:
I've been sorting through a large pile of Shugart
800's and 801's here,
and many of them have goo on the head stepper lead screw. It looks
like white lithium grease, undoubtedly put there by a previous owner
or all-thumbs tech, as the Shugart manuals say (section 3.3):
Do not lubricate the SA800/801; oil will allow dust and dirt to
accumulate.
However the goo got there on the leadscrew, it's so thick now that it's
quite difficult to turn it - not only is the stepper motor not up to the
job, I can barely turn it by hand in some cases.
I have found that "Liquid Wrench" (yes, that stuff you get at the auto
parts store) does a pretty good job of at least softening the goo
temporarily,
enough so that I can actually run the drive through
diagnostics,
but eventually the solvents evaporate and I'm left with thick goo. Is
there an easy way to clean this goo off without completely disassembling
the stepper motor/leadscrew assembly and doing the subsequent realignment?
I can go in and do a half-assed job of cleaning the goo off the threads
with Q-tips and skewers, but there's really a lot there and this doesn't
get it all.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
3:40 p.m.
I have used spray carburator cleaner for cleaning
dried up grease off of
HP floppy drives. You might give it a try. Be carefull, it will dissolve
some plastics.
The more I use stuff based on D-Limonene the more I like it. Very powerfull
solvent, smells nice, doesn't eat my rubber gloves too badly. Common trade
name is I think Citrisolve, and its made out of citrus peels.
3:17 p.m.
CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com wrote:
I can go in and do a half-assed job of cleaning the
goo off the threads
with Q-tips and skewers, but there's really a lot there and this doesn't
get it all.
Hi Tim
As long as you are careful about plastics that might
dissolve, you can use brake clean. I don't recommend
carb cleaner because these sometimes contain caustics.
Brake clean ( also from auto store ) is just dry cleaning
fluids. Place a pile of paper towels under the screw
and squirt it with the little red tube that comes
with the can. The grease will dissolve and run into the
towels. Be careful not to blow stuff where you don't want
it. Cover everything else up with something to block
any side spray.
If the brake clean doesn't effect the nut, you can
work it into that as well to get the grease out of
it.
One thing you can also try is to use some light oil
to loosen the grease before attacking all with the
brake clean.
Dwight
9030
days inactive
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days old
18 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com -
edick＠idcomm.com -
elvey＠hal.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
mikeford＠socal.rr.com -
peter.pachla＠wintermute.org.uk -
rigdonj＠intellistar.net -
wilson＠dbit.dbit.com