24 Jul
2019
24 Jul
'19
10:31 a.m.
Yesterday evening, in the process of refurbishing five very badly
treated Atari 800 computers I had a hunch and subjected a failed Pokey
chip (Atari Part CO12294 Wikki link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POKEY
) to high heat by way of the barrel of my soldering iron until
saliva evaporated from it in about 1 second.
The chip, which did not work before in any of the machines now works
perfectly.
Pokey (see wikki link) is common to all Atari 8-bit computers and
common in many Atari coinop video game systems. These chips are
becoming scarce, so much so there is a sort of replacement being
manufactured
https://hotrodarcade.com/products/pokeyone-atari-pokey-chip-replacement-for…
.
The replacement Pokey only emulates the audio portion of the original
chip, leaving the PotKEY part unimplemented. Pokey gets its name from
Potentiometer Keyboard. It also handles the Atari SIO peripheral
signals, so without those an Atari computer cannot use standard
peripherals like serial disk drives, and other common interfaces.
Thus, for Atari computers a true Pokey is a must.
I stumbled upon a fix for this one and wonder if I reinvented the wheel
or if this information may be of use to the group in treating other
sorts of chips.
Reflowing is a treatment for a lot of hardware these days and generally
regarded as a hack which won't last. As modern hardware, CPU's and
video chips in particular run very hot, I can see how this might be,
but Pokey and most of the stuff we work with don't have this
environmental restriction. Most of our gear runs at 40 degrees
centigrade or lower. So I'm guessing the problem with my disused chip
was oxidation within the package and that cooking the chip a bit
cleaned things up? Any advise or observations would be appreciated.
I tried this on another chip the same evening, an Antic. The Antic DID
work for a second or two, whereas it had before given no signs of life,
but then returned to its failed state.
Best,
Jeff
(Technoid Mutant)
24 Jul
24 Jul
12:20 p.m.
On 2019-Jul-24, at 10:31 AM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote:
Yesterday evening, in the process of refurbishing five
very badly
treated Atari 800 computers I had a hunch and subjected a failed Pokey
chip (Atari Part CO12294 Wikki link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POKEY
) to high heat by way of the barrel of my soldering iron until
saliva evaporated from it in about 1 second.
The chip, which did not work before in any of the machines now works
perfectly.
...
I stumbled upon a fix for this one and wonder if I
reinvented the wheel
or if this information may be of use to the group in treating other
sorts of chips.
Reflowing is a treatment for a lot of hardware these days and generally
regarded as a hack which won't last. As modern hardware, CPU's and
video chips in particular run very hot, I can see how this might be,
but Pokey and most of the stuff we work with don't have this
environmental restriction. Most of our gear runs at 40 degrees
centigrade or lower. So I'm guessing the problem with my disused chip
was oxidation within the package and that cooking the chip a bit
cleaned things up? Any advise or observations would be appreciated.
I tried this on another chip the same evening, an Antic. The Antic DID
work for a second or two, whereas it had before given no signs of life,
but then returned to its failed state.
.. cross your fingers that it stays working. I performed a fix like this some years ago
with a ca.1970 chip from an SSI logic family from Sony. However, it reverted to its failed
state some weeks or months after the heat application, long after (obviously) the chip had
returned to ambient temperature. So it wasn't merely that the chip was temperature
sensitive, the heat application indeed must have had made some internal alteration, but it
wasn't permanent.
12:30 p.m.
Brent Hilpert wrote:
On 2019-Jul-24, at 10:31 AM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote:
Probably temporarily reattached a bond wire which "re-broke" after a few
thermal cycles.
Bill S.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Yesterday
evening, in the process of refurbishing five very badly
treated Atari 800 computers I had a hunch and subjected a failed Pokey
chip (Atari Part CO12294 Wikki link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POKEY
) to high heat by way of the barrel of my soldering iron until
saliva evaporated from it in about 1 second.
The chip, which did not work before in any of the machines now works
perfectly.
cross your fingers that it stays working. I performed a fix like this some
years ago with a ca.1970 chip from an SSI logic family from Sony. However,
it reverted to its failed state some weeks or months after the heat
application, long after (obviously) the chip had returned to ambient
temperature. So it wasn't merely that the chip was temperature sensitive,
the heat application indeed must have had made some internal alteration,
but it wasn't permanent. 
6:24 p.m.
On 2019-07-24 13:31, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote:
Yesterday evening, in the process of refurbishing five
very badly
treated Atari 800 computers I had a hunch and subjected a failed Pokey
chip (Atari Part CO12294 Wikki link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POKEY
) to high heat by way of the barrel of my soldering iron until
saliva evaporated from it in about 1 second.
The chip, which did not work before in any of the machines now works
perfectly.
Pokey (see wikki link) is common to all Atari 8-bit computers and
common in many Atari coinop video game systems. These chips are
becoming scarce, so much so there is a sort of replacement being
manufactured
https://hotrodarcade.com/products/pokeyone-atari-pokey-chip-replacement-for…
.
The replacement Pokey only emulates the audio portion of the original
chip, leaving the PotKEY part unimplemented. Pokey gets its name from
Potentiometer Keyboard. It also handles the Atari SIO peripheral
signals, so without those an Atari computer cannot use standard
peripherals like serial disk drives, and other common interfaces.
Thus, for Atari computers a true Pokey is a must.
I stumbled upon a fix for this one and wonder if I reinvented the wheel
or if this information may be of use to the group in treating other
sorts of chips.
Reflowing is a treatment for a lot of hardware these days and generally
regarded as a hack which won't last. As modern hardware, CPU's and
video chips in particular run very hot, I can see how this might be,
but Pokey and most of the stuff we work with don't have this
environmental restriction. Most of our gear runs at 40 degrees
centigrade or lower. So I'm guessing the problem with my disused chip
was oxidation within the package and that cooking the chip a bit
cleaned things up? Any advise or observations would be appreciated.
I tried this on another chip the same evening, an Antic. The Antic DID
work for a second or two, whereas it had before given no signs of life,
but then returned to its failed state.
Best,
Jeff
(Technoid Mutant)
I tried this a year or two back with about 30 x SID, VIC, and PLA chips
out of C64's. I heated them in the oven at about 250 for 15 minutes.
None of them showed any more signs of life than before I tried it,
unfortunately.
--
-Pete Rittwage
10:52 p.m.
Failure of the POKEY chip were likely bonding wire failures. Voltage stress failures are
not likely to self repair.
I would agree, the fix is likely temporary.
Many early chips used gold wire for bonding but later chips used aluminum. Which is better
is always a question. The pads on the die were usually aluminum, while the package was
often gold. These are acoustically bonded.
One wonders if one put a capacitor on the lead with a non-lethal voltage and used such a
heating method, it might be able to arc weld the wire back on. Using the method of heating
might enhance the success as well.
Dwight
________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Pete Rittwage via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 6:24 PM
To: Jeffrey S. Worley <technoid6502 at gmail.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them.
On 2019-07-24 13:31, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote:
Yesterday evening, in the process of refurbishing five
very badly
treated Atari 800 computers I had a hunch and subjected a failed Pokey
chip (Atari Part CO12294 Wikki link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POKEY
) to high heat by way of the barrel of my soldering iron until
saliva evaporated from it in about 1 second.
The chip, which did not work before in any of the machines now works
perfectly.
Pokey (see wikki link) is common to all Atari 8-bit computers and
common in many Atari coinop video game systems. These chips are
becoming scarce, so much so there is a sort of replacement being
manufactured
https://hotrodarcade.com/products/pokeyone-atari-pokey-chip-replacement-for…
.
The replacement Pokey only emulates the audio portion of the original
chip, leaving the PotKEY part unimplemented. Pokey gets its name from
Potentiometer Keyboard. It also handles the Atari SIO peripheral
signals, so without those an Atari computer cannot use standard
peripherals like serial disk drives, and other common interfaces.
Thus, for Atari computers a true Pokey is a must.
I stumbled upon a fix for this one and wonder if I reinvented the wheel
or if this information may be of use to the group in treating other
sorts of chips.
Reflowing is a treatment for a lot of hardware these days and generally
regarded as a hack which won't last. As modern hardware, CPU's and
video chips in particular run very hot, I can see how this might be,
but Pokey and most of the stuff we work with don't have this
environmental restriction. Most of our gear runs at 40 degrees
centigrade or lower. So I'm guessing the problem with my disused chip
was oxidation within the package and that cooking the chip a bit
cleaned things up? Any advise or observations would be appreciated.
I tried this on another chip the same evening, an Antic. The Antic DID
work for a second or two, whereas it had before given no signs of life,
but then returned to its failed state.
Best,
Jeff
(Technoid Mutant)
I tried this a year or two back with about 30 x SID, VIC, and PLA chips
out of C64's. I heated them in the oven at about 250 for 15 minutes.
None of them showed any more signs of life than before I tried it,
unfortunately.
--
-Pete Rittwage
25 Jul
25 Jul
3:18 a.m.
tor 2019-07-25 klockan 05:52 +0000 skrev dwight via cctalk:
Failure of the POKEY chip were likely bonding wire
failures. Voltage
stress failures are not likely to self repair.
I would agree, the fix is likely temporary.
If chip inside consumer stuff is so prone to this failure,
what is the difference in working technique behind military grade
things which in many cases has a shelf life between 20-30 years ?
27 Jul
27 Jul
1:50 p.m.
On Wed, 2019-07-24 at 21:24 -0400, Pete Rittwage wrote:
I did some lookup on the reflow temperatures for various solder
materials because my gut told me 250 degrees is too low to do any good.
Turns out this is so. 250 CELCIUS maybe, but Fahrenheit? not.
https://www.google.com/search?q=melting+point+of+solder&tbm=isch&so…
:
Here's a link to that information. It looks like 220 Celciums is about
right. So if you were in Fahrenheit then that would explain the total
failure of the experiment and make it worth retrying.
RSVP
YHOSvt.
** TNM **
I tried this a year or two back with about 30 x SID, VIC, and PLA
chips
out of C64's. I heated them in the oven at about 250 for 15 minutes.
None of them showed any more signs of life than before I tried it,
unfortunately.
28 Jul
28 Jul
1:02 p.m.
This method is not limited to "vintage" components.
My MacBook Pro 2011 fails dues to its (famous) problem with the discrete
AMD GPU connections.?? A reflow restores the laptop, but inevitably I
have repeat the process every few months. Depending on who you believe,
the fault is with the A) poor thermal design, b) BGA solder used or C)
bumps on the AMD GPU itself.? The reflow is easy enough to do, but
disconnecting the very fragile cables to remove the motherboard is not
for everyone. Using an inexpensive infrared thermometer improves the the
process.
??? Jerry
On 7/27/19 3:50 PM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote:
On Wed, 2019-07-24 at 21:24 -0400, Pete Rittwage
wrote:
I did some lookup on the reflow temperatures for various solder
materials because my gut told me 250 degrees is too low to do any good.
Turns out this is so. 250 CELCIUS maybe, but Fahrenheit? not.
https://www.google.com/search?q=melting+point+of+solder&tbm=isch&so…
:
Here's a link to that information. It looks like 220 Celciums is about
right. So if you were in Fahrenheit then that would explain the total
failure of the experiment and make it worth retrying.
RSVP
YHOSvt.
** TNM **
>
> I tried this a year or two back with about 30 x SID, VIC, and PLA
> chips
> out of C64's. I heated them in the oven at about 250 for 15 minutes.
> None of them showed any more signs of life than before I tried it,
> unfortunately.
>
2:24 p.m.
On 7/28/19 1:02 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote:
This method is not limited to "vintage"
components.
My MacBook Pro 2011 fails dues to its (famous) problem with the discrete
AMD GPU connections.?? A reflow restores the laptop, but inevitably I
have repeat the process every few months. Depending on who you believe,
the fault is with the A) poor thermal design, b) BGA solder used or C)
bumps on the AMD GPU itself.? The reflow is easy enough to do, but
disconnecting the very fragile cables to remove the motherboard is not
for everyone. Using an inexpensive infrared thermometer improves the the
process.
<snark>
And of course, the solder is Pb-free...
</snark>
--Chuck
6:33 p.m.
On 7/28/2019 4:24 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 7/28/19 1:02 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote:
Exactly. And machines of that era had a lot of problems (I have
reflowed two early PS/3's a total of three times, and a MacBook) as
manufacturers climbed the learning curve. The Microsoft XBox 360 "Red
Ring of Death" was another instance.
This method is not limited to "vintage"
components.
My MacBook Pro 2011 fails dues to its (famous) problem with the discrete
AMD GPU connections.?? A reflow restores the laptop, but inevitably I
have repeat the process every few months. Depending on who you believe,
the fault is with the A) poor thermal design, b) BGA solder used or C)
bumps on the AMD GPU itself.? The reflow is easy enough to do, but
disconnecting the very fragile cables to remove the motherboard is not
for everyone. Using an inexpensive infrared thermometer improves the the
process.
<snark>
And of course, the solder is Pb-free...
</snark>
--Chuck
29 Jul
29 Jul
6:21 a.m.
New subject: OT: Reflowing GPUs and the fruit company (was Re: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them.)
Yup, I've had this issue too and it does come back every so often. The
first time it lasted nearly a year. The second time, it lasted about 9
months.
At some point it will fail to work, or I'll wind up actually damaging
the chip and then it won't work anymore.
Come to think of it, my very first intel macbook pro which I had back
around 2004 or 2005 when it came out also died of a GPU death - I no
longer have this, but I'd bet it would also be fixable the same way.
Shame that the last of the 17" Macbooks is so easily killed as they're
very collectible as they're the last of the 17" as well as the last of
the macbooks to have end user replaceable RAM, drives and even batteries
(though you have to open the case to do this, and no, they're not glued
in.) Hope this issue doesn't affect the 17" G4 PowerBooks as those are
really neat, but so far that one's been working great.
I used an inexpensive air reflow workstation (was ~$40 off amazon and
it's really just a very precise hair drier) and a lot of time. I started
slowly bringing the heat nozzle down from about 6 inches all the way
down to about an 1" or 2" away from the chip itself.
I think I used 220-250'C on the thing, and then I left it alone for a
few hours to slowly dissipate the heat and made sure I didn't touch the
table it was on to prevent vibrations from messing up the shape of the
solder balls, maybe I was overly protective, but it did work.
The sad thing is that even with really good thermal compound and using a
fan base on that machine, it still happens. Going above 300'C risks
melting plastic parts, delaminating the board, etc.
That laptop is poorly designed, and like many of the newer versions
today suffer from heat issues. I don't know what the point of having a
high end i7 or i9 in a laptop is if you can't use it because it will
overheat and it will start slowing itself down. I suspect it's not a
"pro" feature as much as a marketing feature. I think, before they
turned evil around 2012 or so with soldered in RAM, glued in batteries,
and on motherboard soldered in SSD, their stuff used to easily last
10-20 years. Now, they're just littering land fills...
You're right about the flex cables, you have to be really patient and
very careful. I did break one connector off the motherboard the last
time I did it, but it didn't affect operation, not sure what it was for,
likely the optical drive that I never use. That's another issue, the
plastic gets brittle and fragile and the connectors also break, not just
the flex cables. It's also hard to remember which way a plug gets
released. Some have a little hinge above them that you have to pop open
which releases the cable, others slide in, and others are press-down.
The iFixIt manuals help a bit, but they're not always clear on which
cable needs what, and it's very easy to use too much force and break
something. :(
Overall though I think the $40 I spent to get another 1.8 years out the
machine was worth the trouble - not that it's performant or anything
like that, but because it is the last of its line. Supposedly next year
they'll make a 16" one, but I won't be buying it unless they add in DIMM
slots, replaceable batteries, standard M2/NVME SSD drives, a headphone
jack and multiple ports (not just two measly USB-C ports), and a
keyboard with real travel so it doesn't feel like you're typing on a
screen. And I know that won't happen, so that's why two years ago, I got
a high end laptop (17" 4K display, 1070GPU, i7, 64G RAM) and put Linux
on it - and it cost about the same as a 15" MBP with half the specs. I
don't think I'm going back.?
Even running Gallium OS on an $300 Acer R11 Chromebook feels as
responsive as macOS on one of their $1000 lighter laptops and lasts for
about 10 hours. And even better, it can be used in tablet mode, so no
need for an iPad.
I guess what it boils down to is that I'm still a fan of "Apple
Computer, Inc." but that? I never really became a fan of "Apple, Inc."
:-)? Sad really. In a way it feels a lot like MicroSoft back in the late
90s. Hopefully, like the new Microsoft, they'll wake up and be less evil
in the future.
And I'm still waiting for them to release the Lisa OS sources. :-D
On 7/28/19 4:02 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote:
This method is not limited to "vintage"
components.
My MacBook Pro 2011 fails dues to its (famous) problem with the
discrete AMD GPU connections.?? A reflow restores the laptop, but
inevitably I have repeat the process every few months. Depending on
who you believe, the fault is with the A) poor thermal design, b) BGA
solder used or C) bumps on the AMD GPU itself.? The reflow is easy
enough to do, but disconnecting the very fragile cables to remove the
motherboard is not for everyone. Using an inexpensive infrared
thermometer improves the the process.
??? Jerry
On 7/27/19 3:50 PM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote:
On Wed, 2019-07-24 at 21:24 -0400, Pete Rittwage
wrote:
I did some lookup on the reflow temperatures for various solder
materials because my gut told me 250 degrees is too low to do any good.
Turns out this is so.? 250 CELCIUS maybe, but Fahrenheit? not.
?
https://www.google.com/search?q=melting+point+of+solder&tbm=isch&so…
:
Here's a link to that information.? It looks like 220 Celciums is about
right.? So if you were in Fahrenheit then that would explain the total
failure of the experiment and make it worth retrying.
RSVP
YHOSvt.
** TNM **
>
> I tried this a year or two back with about 30 x SID, VIC, and PLA
> chips
> out of C64's. I heated them in the oven at about 250 for 15 minutes.
> None of them showed any more signs of life than before I tried it,
> unfortunately.
>
noon
New subject: OT^2: Marketish fever [was: Reflowing GPUs and the fruit company (was Re: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them.)]
On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 09:21:34AM -0400, Ray Arachelian via cctalk wrote:
[...]
Overall though I think the $40 I spent to get another
1.8 years out the
machine was worth the trouble - not that it's performant or anything
like that, but because it is the last of its line. Supposedly next year
they'll make a 16" one, but I won't be buying it unless they add in DIMM
slots, replaceable batteries, standard M2/NVME SSD drives, a headphone
jack and multiple ports (not just two measly USB-C ports), and a
keyboard with real travel so it doesn't feel like you're typing on a
screen. And I know that won't happen, so that's why two years ago, I got
a high end laptop (17" 4K display, 1070GPU, i7, 64G RAM) and put Linux
on it - and it cost about the same as a 15" MBP with half the specs. I
don't think I'm going back.?
Few years ago I was looking to buy some simple, inexpensive cellphones
for two. In a store, there was about dozen of cheap Nokia models, all
different in names, colors and shapes, but mostly very same for
innards: a 128x128 lcd, vga camera, java (i.e. midp) and about 500kb
of ram. Or something like this. Not a single model with just nine/or
twelve/ keys and 2x16 lcd, without half baked low-end whistles which I
never intended to use. I spent quite a bit of time browsing
javascripted shop and clickingmoreforspecs and ended a little bit
enraged. I think not many people noticed when some time later Nokia
finally flopped and I cannot say I was sorry for them. I suppose the
story of rise and gutting-in-the-air of flying cell phone giant would
make an interesting movie, but I am not holding my breath. At a time,
it appeared that their management went totally nuts.
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com **
3:48 p.m.
New subject: OT: Reflowing GPUs and the fruit company (was Re: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them.)
On 7/28/19 8:33 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote:
On 7/28/2019 4:24 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
I sometimes wonder if I? leave the MBP in alone/unused for a year,
whether it would heal itself by growing some "tin whiskers"
On 7/28/19 1:02 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk
wrote:
Exactly. And machines of that era had a lot of problems (I have
reflowed two early PS/3's a total of three times, and a MacBook) as
manufacturers climbed the learning curve. The Microsoft XBox 360 "Red
Ring of Death" was another instance. This method is not limited to "vintage"
components.
My MacBook Pro 2011 fails dues to its (famous) problem with the discrete
AMD GPU connections.?? A reflow restores the laptop, but inevitably I
have repeat the process every few months. Depending on who you believe,
the fault is with the A) poor thermal design, b) BGA solder used or C)
bumps on the AMD GPU itself.? The reflow is easy enough to do, but
disconnecting the very fragile cables to remove the motherboard is not
for everyone. Using an inexpensive infrared thermometer improves the the
process.
<snark>
And of course, the solder is Pb-free...
</snark>
--Chuck
1742
days inactive
1747
days old
12 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
bhilpert＠shaw.ca -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cube1＠charter.net -
dkelvey＠hotmail.com -
jsw＠ieee.org -
peter＠rittwage.com -
ray＠arachelian.com -
rtomek＠ceti.pl -
stefan.skoglund＠agj.net -
technoid6502＠gmail.com -
wh.sudbrink＠verizon.net