24 May
2009
24 May
'09
12:22 p.m.
Personally, I see this as having nothing to do with vintage computing. So why is is here?
Dont like the OS, dont use it. Keep your rants off here.
Is this "bashing" Microsoft?? Personally, I
see it as
reporting.
Warren
24 May
24 May
6:39 p.m.
Christian Liendo wrote:
Personally, I see this as having nothing to do with vintage
computing. So why is is here?
I have a couple of 20 year old computers that use Windows were purchased new with Windows
for Workgroups. Dunno, but 20 year old computers seem to be "classic" computers
to me... Is there an "official" definition for "classic computer" for
this list? I would also note that the interface and interconnection of older computers
and newer ones is, or at least SHOULD be part of the process. Emulators (thanks, guys!)
for various old computers which run on modern PCs are (IMHO) an utterly appropriate topic,
but consist of modern software running on modern hardware. They only ACT like old
computers together. Ouch. This "topic NAZI" business gets complicated quickly,
doesn't it?
I would also note that my message only appeared on the "On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts" lists. However one judges it, it should qualify under at least ONE of those
categories... no?
Dont like the OS, dont use it. Keep your rants off here.
You like telling others what to do, don't you? Sorry. I can tell I'm going to be
a frustration to you.
I have been in a situation for about a year and a half in which I have almost no choice
but to use Windows XP very nearly exclusively. I'm not upset by this. I shut my
machine down about twice a day, and then have relatively few O/S related issues in my
life. I find that acceptable.
The fact that Windows doesn't have "commands," but "suggestions,"
meaning that the O/S is apparently designed with the ability to choose to comply or not, I
find somewhat confusing. I also find the lack of stability disturbing when compared with
other O/S software, especially given the truly obscene amount of money Microsoft has
earned. Seriously, give almost anyone here double-digit billions of dollars and twenty
years, and I think ANY software product could be made incredibly stable -- I KNOW I could
have done a better job that Microsoft has done, and I find that somewhat confusing. But
these are fairly objective observations, no? They were, I would add, put in terms of
comparison with OTHER ancient software manufacturers, who DID take faulty products, and
made them much better once they got some decent sales money.
Would you accuse me of "ranting" if I made similar observations comparing, say,
the various Macintosh operating systems, or Linux distros, or HP's MPE versus Unix
versions? Each platform has plusses and minuses. Does criticizing Windows violate tenets
of YOUR religion? Otherwise, why the post? I hardly think you would be claiming that
Windows (pick your favorite version) is perfect... or are you claiming that? I've
been involved in electronic communications for a long time. A friend of mine and myself
wrote an e-mail program for HP2000B Timeshare BASIC (Hey, it was all we had) back in
1971/1972. That's 27 years of e-chatting of various kinds. (Now I REALLY feel old.)
I've SEEN rants -- many rants. I would certainly not call what I was doing
"ranting" even if I was in a very hyperbolic mood. What about my post seems to
be a "rant" to you? I would say that your post, while distressingly short, and
devoid of any clever insults, is actually more of a rant than mine. I was not telling
anyone else what to do, I was expressing opinions of my own. I often get paid very good
money for my opinions, even without backing them up with logic and examples.
I mean, people here are talking about UHF connectors, the PL259s and SO239s, in a rather
negative way. Are they creating hardware rants? I think not; what's YOUR opinion on
that?
Warren
8:26 p.m.
Re Microsoft and this list -
Can it run on my Z80, or my PDP11/04 or my PDP11/34 or my 1802 or my
C64, or my Atari, or my 65F11 or any of my other classic machines??
No? Thats my definition of Classic - I know that it difers from the
lists - so I just happily hit the key marked <del>
The world got extremely boring when the beige boxes started taking over
circt about 1982 - 83 - Thats when My collection stops.
:-)
Sorry - couldn't exist.
Doug
8:31 p.m.
On May 24, 2009, at 3:39 PM, Warren Wolfe <lists at databasics.us> wrote:
Christian Liendo wrote:
Personally, I see this as having nothing to do with vintage
computing. So why is is here?
I have a couple of 20 year old computers that use Windows were
purchased new with Windows for Workgroups. Dunno, but 20 year old
computers seem to be "classic" computers to me... Is there an
"official" definition for "classic computer" for this list? I would
also note that the interface and interconnection of older computers
and newer ones is, or at least SHOULD be part of the process.
Emulators (thanks, guys!) for various old computers which run on
modern PCs are (IMHO) an utterly appropriate topic, but consist of
modern software running on modern hardware. They only ACT like old
computers together. Ouch. This "topic NAZI" business gets
complicated quickly, doesn't it?
I would also note that my message only appeared on the "On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts" lists. However one judges it, it should qualify
under at least ONE of those categories... no?
Dont like the OS, dont use it. Keep your rants off here.
You like telling others what to do, don't you? Sorry. I can tell
I'm going to be a frustration to you.
I have been in a situation for about a year and a half in which I
have almost no choice but to use Windows XP very nearly
exclusively. I'm not upset by this. I shut my machine down about
twice a day, and then have relatively few O/S related issues in my
life. I find that acceptable.
The fact that Windows doesn't have "commands," but "suggestions,"
meaning that the O/S is apparently designed with the ability to
choose to comply or not, I find somewhat confusing. I also find the
lack of stability disturbing when compared with other O/S software,
especially given the truly obscene amount of money Microsoft has
earned. Seriously, give almost anyone here double-digit billions of
dollars and twenty years, and I think ANY software product could be
made incredibly stable -- I KNOW I could have done a better job that
Microsoft has done, and I find that somewhat confusing. But these
are fairly objective observations, no? They were, I would add, put
in terms of comparison with OTHER ancient software manufacturers,
who DID take faulty products, and made them much better once they
got some decent sales money.
Would you accuse me of "ranting" if I made similar observations
comparing, say, the various Macintosh operating systems, or Linux
distros, or HP's MPE versus Unix versions? Each platform has
plusses and minuses. Does criticizing Windows violate tenets of
YOUR religion? Otherwise, why the post? I hardly think you would
be claiming that Windows (pick your favorite version) is perfect...
or are you claiming that? I've been involved in electronic
communications for a long time. A friend of mine and myself wrote
an e-mail program for HP2000B Timeshare BASIC (Hey, it was all we
had) back in 1971/1972. That's 27 years of e-chatting of various
kinds. (Now I REALLY feel old.) I've SEEN rants -- many rants. I
would certainly not call what I was doing "ranting" even if I was in
a very hyperbolic mood. What about my post seems to be a "rant" to
you? I would say that your post, while distressingly short, and
devoid of any clever insults, is actually more of a rant than mine.
I was not telling anyone else what to do, I was expressing opinions
of my own. I often get paid very good money for my opinions, even
without backing them up with logic and examples.
I mean, people here are talking about UHF connectors, the PL259s and
SO239s, in a rather negative way. Are they creating hardware
rants? I think not; what's YOUR opinion on that?
My opinion is that such topics like this are very uninteresting --
what are you trying to say with your anti-ms rant? Who are you trying
to convert and what knowledge are you conveying? This is a troll,
plain and simple, whether you think you are or not.
Also, if you have to reboot your XP machine 2x a day then I'd suggest
checking the hardware for faults.
Josh
Warren
8:59 p.m.
Josh Dersch wrote:
My opinion is that such topics like this are very uninteresting -- . . .
You may well be right.
what are you trying to say with your anti-ms rant?
Again, the "r" word... What's about my post makes it a rant? I mean,
this is as if I were to accuse others of being paid by Microsoft...
apparently anti-anti-Microsoft rants ARE allowed. Right?
Who are you trying to convert and what knowledge are you conveying?
I'm trying to convert nobody... As if that would work if I WERE...
And, I'm passing on some musings and personal experiences from more than
25 years of PC experience.
This is a troll, plain and simple, whether you think you are or not.
Um, are you calling my post, or me, a troll? I'm not fond of this kind
of accusation. Accusations of hidden agendas might as well not be
made. Isn't a troll a CONSCIOUS attempt to bait others into starting a
flame war? If so, how could one NOT know one was trolling? Is YOUR
STATEMENT a troll? Have I responded in a satisfactory fashion?
Also, if you have to reboot your XP machine 2x a day then I'd
suggest checking the hardware for faults.
Oh, dear. First, thanks for your attempt to assist. Well, at the risk
of compounding any potential trouble I might be in.... I DID test the
hardware... By running ... shall we say .... "other software" for
many months without problem. Also, I would point out that the same
behavior has been observed on other machines. And, finally, let me
point out that I have adopted a "twice a day" boot plan as prophylaxis
for O/S problems, not because I am HAVING problems twice a day.
Stepping gingerly,
Warren
9:09 p.m.
Warren Wolfe wrote:
Oh, dear. First, thanks for your attempt to assist.
Well, at the risk
of compounding any potential trouble I might be in.... I DID test the
hardware... By running ... shall we say .... "other software" for
many months without problem. Also, I would point out that the same
behavior has been observed on other machines. And, finally, let me
point out that I have adopted a "twice a day" boot plan as prophylaxis
for O/S problems, not because I am HAVING problems twice a day.
I just turn off the computer when I am done using it, a few times a day.
Stepping gingerly,
Warren
PS: I know where the circuit breaker is ... When I say OFF ... I mean OFF!
9:20 p.m.
On May 24, 2009, at 5:59 PM, Warren Wolfe <lists at databasics.us> wrote:
Josh Dersch wrote:
My opinion is that such topics like this are very uninteresting
-- . . .
You may well be right.
what are you trying to say with your anti-ms rant?
Again, the "r" word... What's about my post makes it a rant? I
mean, this is as if I were to accuse others of being paid by
Microsoft... apparently anti-anti-Microsoft rants ARE allowed.
Right?
You are allowed to say whatever you want, but on a list such as this
it is very rarely productive.
Who are you trying to convert and what knowledge are you conveying?
I'm trying to convert nobody... As if that would work if I WERE...
And, I'm passing on some musings and personal experiences from more
than 25 years of PC experience.
No offense, but your musings seem to be more inflammatory than mere
relations of experience -- stuff like "I could do a better job given
the money". (paraphrasing since my phone won't do copy/paste) does not
come without some emotional weight.
This is a troll, plain and simple, whether you think
you are or not.
Um, are you calling my post, or me, a troll? I'm not fond of this
kind of accusation. Accusations of hidden agendas might as well not
be made. Isn't a troll a CONSCIOUS attempt to bait others into
starting a flame war? If so, how could one NOT know one was
trolling? Is YOUR STATEMENT a troll? Have I responded in a
satisfactory fashion?
I've no idea what your intent is, but as it is posts in this vein (see
also emacs vs vi, apple vs anything...) mainly raise flames, they
don't really promote useful discussion.
Also, if you have to reboot your XP machine 2x a day then I'd
suggest checking the hardware for faults.
Oh, dear. First, thanks for your attempt to assist. Well, at the
risk of compounding any potential trouble I might be in.... I DID
test the hardware... By running ... shall we say .... "other
software" for many months without problem. Also, I would point out
that the same behavior has been observed on other machines. And,
finally, let me point out that I have adopted a "twice a day" boot
plan as prophylaxis for O/S problems, not because I am HAVING
problems twice a day.
Well, in that case I'd suggest the cause could be terrible hardware
drivers. They are the cause of the vast majority of instability
problems. I'd also suggest memtest86 to ferret out memory issues.
Windows XP generally very stable. I have machines at work whose
uptimes have only been interrupted by power failures.
If you get regular BSODs do a full dump and I can take a look to try
and narrow down what's faulting.
Josh
Stepping gingerly,
Warren
25 May
25 May
4:39 a.m.
Josh Dersch wrote:
Warren: Again, the "r" word... What's about my post makes it a
rant? I mean, this is as if I were to accuse others of being
paid by Microsoft... apparently anti-anti-Microsoft rants ARE
allowed. Right?
You are allowed to say whatever you want, but on a list such as this
it is very rarely productive.
This has to be the wisest statement in this thread, so far.
No offense, but your musings seem to be more inflammatory than mere
relations of experience -- stuff like "I could do a better job given
the money". (paraphrasing since my phone won't do copy/paste) does
not come without some emotional weight.
No offense taken. Yes, my experiences have given me opinions. Humans
are DESIGNED to form opinions and conclusions. The process does not
always work correctly, but it is always working. Claims of utter
objectivity by humans are utter bollocks.
But, as opposed to a rant, I really DO wonder how software that has
earned billions and lasted twenty years even has these issues. I've
been involved in many software projects, and a lack of time is second
only to a lack of money as an obstacle to stable code that does its
job. So, I'm genuinely perplexed as to how this process works.
I've no idea what your intent is, but as it is posts in this vein
(see also emacs vs vi, apple vs anything...) mainly raise flames,
they don't really promote useful discussion.
I am less certain than you seem to be. I consider THIS to be useful
discussion, for example. But... Yes, some subjects are close to pure
flame bait. That doesn't mean that discussion is impossible -- just
dangerous.
Well, in that case I'd suggest the cause could be terrible hardware
drivers. They are the cause of the vast majority of instability
problems. I'd also suggest memtest86 to ferret out memory issues.
I've come to the conclusion that it is the NVidia video card drivers.
Others seem to use them well, though. Everything else is rather recent
Dell drivers. *SIGH*
Windows XP generally very stable. I have machines at work whose
uptimes have only been interrupted by power failures.
Good. I'd like to have that record going for me.
If you get regular BSODs do a full dump and I can take a look to try
and narrow down what's faulting.
No, I don't generally get BSOD crashes. I just get response times that
get so horrific that it will take 3-4 minutes to close a simple browser
window, or to shut down Windows Explorer. As I say, with my preemptive
reboots, I have not had these experiences recently. But, if left alone,
they DO end up in BSOD. Would it be helpful to let it go there, just to
get the dump? Actually, though, if you're good at the XP stuff, I have
some files I can't delete I'd like to email you about privately...
And thank you so much for your willingness to HELP in this. It's
refreshing and a fine renewer of the faith!
Thanks again,
Warren
4:01 p.m.
Could y'all take the issues with CURRENT MICROS~1 products private for
another 5 years or so?
I'm still dealing with VINTAGE Microsoft issues, such as wrong error
message when the FORMAT buffer happens to straddle a 64K boundary, or how
SMARTDRV handles a write error.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
5536
days inactive
5538
days old
10 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
christian_liendo＠yahoo.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
derschjo＠mail.msu.edu -
doug＠stillhq.com -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
lists＠databasics.us