12 Oct
2012
12 Oct
'12
2:56 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
Those were reasons why you don't want to.
They were not reasons why you "can't".
Although I had actually posted at the bottom of the original post, I agree
with Jim and think they were valid reasons why top posting is more
efficient, at least with much of today's hardware and software...
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 09:55:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
PS: why cant you scroll down to the bottom of the
message and type
there?
three reasons. Top-posting is a TINY amount less work for the poster,
and more work for
the system and every one of its readers. It DISCOURAGES trimming.
Please exempt me from "every one"; I find reading bottom posts a useless
waste of my time, since I've already previously read everything being
replied to and don't need/want to have to wade through it again. Many posts
on this list could express all they have to say with only the subject line
and "Me too" or "+1".
Trimming is a good thing no matter which end you're posting on. As is
in-line quoting IF the context justifies it.
Most people will gladly make work for a lot of others
to save themselves a
miniscule amount of effort. (the "litter principle")
Again, I actually appreciate the consideration shown me by top posters who
don't make me wade once again through the same dreck I've been reading in
the last ten posts in the same thread.
"'e-mail' is bottom posting, plain text,
poor spellinq, and insufficient
trimming of the old crap, which is set off by chevrons.
'email' is top posting, colors,
Poor spelling, insufficient trimming, etc. are a PITA that has nothing
whatsoever to do with the issue of top- vs. bottom-posting.
As regards colour, I hugely prefer the clarity of messages where the new and
quoted text are different colours instead of ever-longer lines of >>>>>s.
A chacun son gout, as they say, but it seems to be a characteristic of many
members of this hobby to cling fiercely to the old ways and waste bandwidth
over and over again complaining about the same tired issues and judging and
criticizing anyone who does things differently for what he/she considers
valid reasons.
m
12 Oct
12 Oct
3:34 p.m.
[...yet another incarnation of the perennial quoting
style issue...]
I wrote up a piece about this which ended up as a post on my blah.
Anyone interested in my thoughts on the matter is invited to find it
there.
The piece itself is a text file, available at
ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/blah/2012-09-26-1a.txt (also available
over HTTP, but that seems at least mildly inappropriate on this list);
the blah post, which is little more than a pointer to the above, is at
http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/2012-09-26-1.html (and,
while available over FTP, is arguably less appropriate to view that way
even here because it _is_ HTML).
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
3:35 p.m.
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, MikeS wrote:
Trimming is a good thing no matter which end
you're posting on. As is
in-line quoting IF the context justifies it.
Absolutely!
The only time that NOT trimming is justified would be in an argument where
there could be claims that statements were taken out of context.
> "'e-mail' is bottom posting, plain
text, poor spellinq, and insufficient
> trimming of the old crap, which is set off by chevrons.
> 'email' is top posting, colors,
The "e-mail V email" quote is an illustration of the evolution of a
hyphenated item becoming an accepted word, with an implicit link to the
changes that occur over the same time.
I am seriously considering including it in a minor discussion of the
information science aspects of hyphenation.
Poor spelling, insufficient trimming, etc. are a PITA
that has nothing
whatsoever to do with the issue of top- vs. bottom-posting.
Absolutely!
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
3:55 p.m.
On 12 October 2012 19:56, MikeS <dm561 at torfree.net> wrote:
Please exempt me from "every one"; I find reading bottom posts a useless
waste of my time, since I've already previously read everything being
replied to and don't need/want to have to wade through it again. Many posts
on this list could express all they have to say with only the subject line
and "Me too" or "+1".
Then you're using a poor email client. Smarter ones can (optionally)
collapse or expand levels of previously-quote text. Gmail does this
automatically if it can tell that you've read the quoted text before,
for instance; I used to use an add-in for Thunderbird 2.x.
As regards colour, I hugely prefer the clarity of
messages where the new and
quoted text are different colours instead of ever-longer lines of >>>>>s.
In no way mutually exclusive; again, a good MUA can do that as an
optional feature.
A chacun son gout, as they say, but it seems to be a
characteristic of many
members of this hobby to cling fiercely to the old ways and waste bandwidth
over and over again complaining about the same tired issues and judging and
criticizing anyone who does things differently for what he/she considers
valid reasons.
In this case, actually, I think it's a sign that those who favour
top-posting are clinging on to poor-quality MUAs when they should
update to something better.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
5:01 p.m.
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote:
In this case, actually, I think it's a sign that those who favour
top-posting are clinging on to poor-quality MUAs when they should
update to something better.
...like Alpine. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
5:15 p.m.
On 12 October 2012 22:01, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote:
Whatever floats your boat.
I hear Mutt is pretty good, but I'm decadent and like a GUI for most things.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
In this case, actually, I think it's a sign that those who favour
top-posting are clinging on to poor-quality MUAs when they should
update to something better.
...like Alpine. :)
5:38 p.m.
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote:
On 12 October 2012 22:01, geneb <geneb at
deltasoft.com> wrote:
I've never tried it. I enjoy Alpine because it quotes properly and
doesn't generate HTML (at least by default) email.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote:
Whatever floats your boat.
I hear Mutt is pretty good, but I'm decadent and like a GUI for most things.
In this case, actually, I think it's a sign that those who favour
top-posting are clinging on to poor-quality MUAs when they should
update to something better.
...like Alpine. :) 
6:19 p.m.
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, geneb wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote:
Not to mention that Alpine (and Pine) are quite fast for reading large
volumes of email once you learn all the keystroke commands. While I use
Thunderbird for some stuff, I still use Alpine for listserv emails.
On 12 October 2012 22:01, geneb <geneb at
deltasoft.com> wrote:
I've never tried it. I enjoy Alpine because it quotes properly and
doesn't generate HTML (at least by default) email. On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote:
Whatever floats your boat.
I hear Mutt is pretty good, but I'm decadent and like a GUI for most
things. In this case, actually, I think it's a sign
that those who favour
top-posting are clinging on to poor-quality MUAs when they should
update to something better.
...like Alpine. :) 
10:58 p.m.
* Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> [121012 17:15]:
On 12 October 2012 22:01, geneb <geneb at
deltasoft.com> wrote:
Mutt is excellent and extremely flexible and powerful.
Todd
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote:
Whatever floats your boat.
I hear Mutt is pretty good, but I'm decadent and like a GUI for most things.
In this case, actually, I think it's a sign that those who favour
top-posting are clinging on to poor-quality MUAs when they should
update to something better.
...like Alpine. :) 
5:19 p.m.
...like Alpine. :)
I resolutely cling to old, brown Elm because I'm used to it.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- A baby is God's opinion that the world should go on. -- Carl Sandburg ------
5:31 p.m.
On 12 October 2012 22:19, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
Profs
--
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
--------
"I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all
the facts are in. "
General "Buck" Turgidson
...like
Alpine. :)
I resolutely cling to old, brown Elm because I'm used to it.
5:38 p.m.
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Aw c'mon, you know you want at least Pine. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
...like
Alpine. :)
I resolutely cling to old, brown Elm because I'm used to it.
5:58 p.m.
...like Alpine. :)
I resolutely cling to old, brown Elm because I'm used to it.
7:26 p.m.
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, MikeS wrote:
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
> "'e-mail' is bottom posting, plain text, poor spellinq, and
> insufficient trimming of the old crap, which is set off by chevrons.
> 'email' is top posting, colors,
<snip>
As regards colour, I hugely prefer the clarity of
messages where the new
and quoted text are different colours instead of ever-longer lines of
>>>>>s.
I think this reply deserves a screenshot.
http://strudel.ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/screenshot_alpine.png
13 Oct
13 Oct
10:26 a.m.
As regards
colour, I hugely prefer the clarity of messages where the new
and quoted text are different colours instead of ever-longer lines of
>>>>>s.
I think this reply deserves a screenshot.
http://strudel.ignorelist (dot)
com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/screenshot_alpine.png
1:47 p.m.
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012, geneb wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote:
You mean re-alpine? http://re-alpine.sourceforge.net/
They've not yet pushed re-alpine 2.02 for debian-stable so this machine is
still running UW Alpine 2.00.
http://launchpad.net/debian/+source/alpine/+changelog
http://www.washington.edu/alpine/
I suspect re-alpine won't be pushed out for squeeze so unless I do a
custom build from source or install the version from the testing or
unstable branches that changeover will most likely happen during the
squeeze->wheezy transition once wheezy finally supersedes squeeze in
debian-stable. Since this machine only handles email, I just haven't yet
felt the need to rebuild Alpine from source. Until I finally rebuilt this
machine this year, it was still running UW Pine 4.64.
http://www.washington.edu/pine/
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, MikeS wrote:
FYI, 2.02 is the current release version. As regards colour, I hugely prefer the clarity of
messages where the
new and quoted text are different colours instead of ever-longer lines
of >>>>>s.
I think this reply deserves a screenshot.
http://strudel.ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/screenshot_alpine.png
14 Oct
14 Oct
1:57 p.m.
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2012, geneb wrote:
No. From the Help banner, this is v2.02 from UW, Built in Feb '11.
I only use Fedora distros for mainline stuff.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote:
You mean re-alpine? http://re-alpine.sourceforge.net/
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, MikeS wrote:
FYI, 2.02 is the current release version. As regards colour, I hugely prefer the clarity of
messages where the new
and quoted text are different colours instead of ever-longer lines of
>>>>>s.
I think this reply deserves a screenshot.
http://strudel.ignorelist (dot)
com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/screenshot_alpine.png
4333
days inactive
4335
days old
16 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dm561＠torfree.net -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
john＠yoyodyne-propulsion.net -
lproven＠gmail.com -
mouse＠Rodents-Montreal.ORG -
spectre＠floodgap.com -
tothwolf＠concentric.net -
tsg＠bonedaddy.net