10 Mar
2000
10 Mar
'00
9:50 a.m.
Allison, I believe you've been sold a bill of goods.
First of all, look at what a teacher has to do for his/her education and
later for his/her salary as compared, say, to an engineering student. From
what I've observed myself, and even more so from what I hear from my boys,
both in college, the workload in a typical week for an engineering student
adds up to about what an education major does in a semester. Secondly, he
doesn't have to look forward to those 7 20-hour-day work-weeks for the next
ten years, and he knows that he needn't worry about being fired, laid off,
or much of anything else that would rock the boat. Sure, he gets about $45K
after ten years, rather than the 60-75K the engineer will get, but he only
has to work a 6-hour day, and he only has to do that 183 days a year to get
full salary and, ultimately a generous pension.
Secondly, look at the quality of those individuals. These are people who
didn't do so well in high school, mainly due to lack of ambition and
diligence, didn't want to work too hard in college, and, of course, couldn't
get into a good college. Fortunately, a good college isn't required. On
top of that, he's chosen a niche in which he only has to work a 6-hour day,
and he only has to do that 183 days a year to get full salary and,
ultimately a generous pension.
Of course he's not into it for the money. He doesn't want to work hard
enough to earn a lot of money.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: Re: languages (Teachers)
On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, George Rachor wrote:
>>> On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, sjm wrote:
>>>> lazy (everybody has a teacher horror story to tell). But those who
>>>> stand out in my mind were the genuine heros. They were IN to what
>>>> they did. They LOVED the kids. They latched on to us and energized
>>>> us and really taught us. They made us solve problems, they made us
True.
My father was a construction contractor and used to have several teachers
that worked for him during the busy summer months so they could make
what my mother did as a LPN (2years college).
When I left DEC I looked at teaching, I needed a masters in teaching over
any technical degrees and could expect to make 10-20thousand less a year.
It's pretty sad that that the average teacher has 4-6 years of college
education and makes less than the average person with that kind of time in
a technical degreee.
Allison
10 Mar
10 Mar
12:02 p.m.
This is total bullshit. Total. A very good, long-time friend of mine did 5
years at University to come out with a dual EE/Music Comp. degree and
walked into a $60k per year job with a cutting-edge tech company. He works
8 hours a day, maybe 2 hours extra at home to straighten out paperwork.
Maybe. In addition to his base salary, he receives stock options that just
about double his yearly salary. He is 27 and owns a house in Huntington
Beach, less than three blocks from the shore. He just returned from a
three-week vacation in Italy, after being with the company for 4 years.
Anyone who kills themselves in school to walk out into a $45k per year job
that requires *140* hours per week is not intelligent. A person who does
this today is either a moron or a massochist. If this is what you want for
your children, that's up to you.
This is my last post on the subject. I do wonder what really soured you on
teachers, besides your claim to have studied them so closely in the work
environment. To demean the entire teaching profession as it exists today
in gross generalizations shows a lack of objectivity and portrays you as
nothing but a bitter, old crank.
To that end, I'm not sure what rubs me so raw about this...usually I can
keep my big mouth shut. But listening to someone bash a group of people
who are generally dedicated to their profession, and who put up with poor
materials and low salaries, makes me sick.
Aaron
On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote:
Allison, I believe you've been sold a bill of
goods.
First of all, look at what a teacher has to do for his/her education and
later for his/her salary as compared, say, to an engineering student. From
what I've observed myself, and even more so from what I hear from my boys,
both in college, the workload in a typical week for an engineering student
adds up to about what an education major does in a semester. Secondly, he
doesn't have to look forward to those 7 20-hour-day work-weeks for the next
ten years, and he knows that he needn't worry about being fired, laid off,
or much of anything else that would rock the boat. Sure, he gets about $45K
after ten years, rather than the 60-75K the engineer will get, but he only
has to work a 6-hour day, and he only has to do that 183 days a year to get
full salary and, ultimately a generous pension.
Secondly, look at the quality of those individuals. These are people who
didn't do so well in high school, mainly due to lack of ambition and
diligence, didn't want to work too hard in college, and, of course, couldn't
get into a good college. Fortunately, a good college isn't required. On
top of that, he's chosen a niche in which he only has to work a 6-hour day,
and he only has to do that 183 days a year to get full salary and,
ultimately a generous pension.
Of course he's not into it for the money. He doesn't want to work hard
enough to earn a lot of money.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: Re: languages (Teachers)
On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, George Rachor wrote:
>>> On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, sjm wrote:
>>>> lazy (everybody has a teacher horror story to tell). But those who
>>>> stand out in my mind were the genuine heros. They were IN to what
>>>> they did. They LOVED the kids. They latched on to us and energized
>>>> us and really taught us. They made us solve problems, they made us
True.
My father was a construction contractor and used to have several teachers
that worked for him during the busy summer months so they could make
what my mother did as a LPN (2years college).
When I left DEC I looked at teaching, I needed a masters in teaching over
any technical degrees and could expect to make 10-20thousand less a year.
It's pretty sad that that the average teacher has 4-6 years of college
education and makes less than the average person with that kind of time in
a technical degreee.
Allison
11:01 p.m.
walked into a $60k per year job with a cutting-edge
tech company. He works
8 hours a day, maybe 2 hours extra at home to straighten out paperwork.
Maybe. In addition to his base salary, he receives stock options that just
about double his yearly salary. He is 27 and owns a house in Huntington
keep my big mouth shut. But listening to someone bash a
group of people
who are generally dedicated to their profession, and who put up with poor
materials and low salaries, makes me sick.
The world is NOT fair, pay rates are not fair or based much on merit.
Generally my experience is that getting a high salary is not an engineering
skill. Might be a talent you are either born with or not, I sure don't
know. I know very good engineers that happily work for peanuts, and
decidedly mediocre engineers who haul down money like lawyers.
My last comment, in this thread anyway, on teachers is just wait til your
kids have a few years of school, then tell us what a swell underpaid bunch
they are.
11 Mar
11 Mar
8:53 a.m.
On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Mike Ford wrote:
Probably the classic illustration of that statement is the rates paid to
entertainers - and I take a fairly generic definition here - including
such as baseball, football, and basketball players in addition to the
more usual categories.
- don
walked into a
$60k per year job with a cutting-edge tech company. He works
8 hours a day, maybe 2 hours extra at home to straighten out paperwork.
Maybe. In addition to his base salary, he receives stock options that just
about double his yearly salary. He is 27 and owns a house in Huntington
keep my big mouth shut. But listening to someone
bash a group of people
who are generally dedicated to their profession, and who put up with poor
materials and low salaries, makes me sick.
The world is NOT fair, pay rates are not fair or based much on merit. Generally my experience is that getting a high salary
is not an engineering
skill. Might be a talent you are either born with or not, I sure don't
know. I know very good engineers that happily work for peanuts, and
decidedly mediocre engineers who haul down money like lawyers.
My last comment, in this thread anyway, on teachers is just wait til your
kids have a few years of school, then tell us what a swell underpaid bunch
they are.
10 Mar
10 Mar
12:55 p.m.
At 01:50 PM 3/10/00 -0700, Dick wrote:
Allison, I believe you've been sold a bill of
goods.
First of all, look at what a teacher has to do for his/her education and
later for his/her salary as compared, say, to an engineering student.
I agree. I've found teachers and engineers get comparable salaries but
teachers put in about 40% less time.
From
what I've observed myself, and even more so from
what I hear from my boys,
both in college, the workload in a typical week for an engineering student
adds up to about what an education major does in a semester.
Correct. My wife has an educational degree and I have an engineering
degree. We both went to the same school and she spent a LOT less time with
school work than I did. For example, she never had one computer programming
assignment until she was working on her Masters degree. I had countless
ones for a BS degree. Her one programming assignment was so simple that I
did it in less than one evening. Many of her hamework assignements were to
make posters and the like.
Secondly, he
doesn't have to look forward to those 7 20-hour-day
work-weeks for the next
ten years, and he knows that he needn't worry about being fired, laid off,
or much of anything else that would rock the boat. Sure, he gets about $45K
after ten years, rather than the 60-75K the engineer will get,
I worked at THE largest aerospace engineering company in the world for 8
years and I was earning less than $45,000 when I left. And I know for a
fact that I was making more than most of the engineers that I worked with.
I have two BS degrees and was designated as one of three MUST HAVE
employees on the program that I was on.
but he only
has to work a 6-hour day, and he only has to do that
183 days a year to get
full salary and, ultimately a generous pension.
Secondly, look at the quality of those individuals. These are people who
didn't do so well in high school, mainly due to lack of ambition and
diligence, didn't want to work too hard in college, and, of course, couldn't
get into a good college. Fortunately, a good college isn't required. On
top of that, he's chosen a niche in which he only has to work a 6-hour day,
and he only has to do that 183 days a year to get full salary and,
ultimately a generous pension.
Of course he's not into it for the money. He doesn't want to work hard
enough to earn a lot of money.
Of course there are exceptions to this but it certainly fits the
majority!
My sister is a teacher and yes she doesn't make much money but she has
no ambition what so ever, she was a mediocre high school student, never
took any college courses and hasn't bothered to learn anything new in over
twenty years!
FWIW not all teachers have a lot of education. Here in Florida they LIKE
for the teachers to have at least one level higher degree than the courses
that they're teaching but if they're short handed they'll even wave that.
My wife was teaching sophomore level Business Law classes before she earned
her BA degree. Personally, I've found the best teachers don't have a lot of
formal education but they do have a lot of practicle experience.
Joe
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