15 May
2014
15 May
'14
9:11 a.m.
I can use some help in my attempt to access some files on an old
IDE 160 GB ATA 100 hard drive with a FAT32 file structure for
each of the partitions. This hard drive was used as a data drive on
a Windows 98SE system (which because of the old BIOS supported
only 131 GB - more than acceptable since that hard drive replaced
at about 2/3 of the original cost a 40 GB drive) with a separate
controller to provide faster throughput. The cable was a DOUBLED
40 pin IDE interface between the controller and the drive.
The system that I have to work with is a Windows XP with SATA
drives, but also with an IDE interface which supported a DVD drive
with a standard 40 pin cable, but the DVD drive is no longer in use.
While it probably does not matter, on this Windows XP system,
all of the partitions on all of the SATA drives are also FAT32.
I have access to Partition Magic to be able to activate and name
the partitions on the old IDE ATA 100 hard drive.
Is it likely that I can just attach the old IDE ATA 100 drive to the
IDE cable on the Windows XP system and access the files I want
to copy from one of the partitions? Alternatively, do I need to use
the DOUBLED 40 pin cable used with the old ATA 100 hard drive
when it was used in the Windows 98SE system?
Failing both of the above being successful, are there any other
suggestions which might work?
Jerome Fine
10:36 a.m.
On 05/15/2014 01:10 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Thu, 15 May 2014, Ryan Brooks wrote:
Same as any other. I got the feeling that when he said "doubled" he was
actually referring to the IDE ribbon cables that actually have 80 wires
in them. They started showing around the right time frame for the
hardware mentioned.
I don't recall the specifics as to why they used 80 conductor wired for
a 40 pin connection; I believe it had something to do with reducing
crosstalk & interference at the higher speeds of the (at that time)
newer hard drives.
--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583
Can be found on IRC - #bikeshed on irc.dal.net
"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.
An external USB -> pata/sata adapter is nice
for things like this.
How do you connect a "double cabled" IDE drive to an
external USB -> pata/sata adapter?
11:47 a.m.
I don't recall the specifics as to why they used
80 conductor wired
for a 40 pin connection; I believe it had something to do with
reducing crosstalk & interference at the higher speeds of the (at
that time) newer hard drives.
The version I saw is that the other half of the wires are grounded at
the CPU end and exist as shielding for the other lines - basically, as
you say, to reduce crosstalk and other intra-line interference.
While I'm a good deal less sure of this, I also have the impression
that there is some other difference - an otherwise unused pin grounded
in the connector? - which (a) serves to notify the host electronics
that it's got an 80-wire cable and (b) means that the host connector is
operationally different from the drive connectors (which isn't the case
for 40-wire cabling).
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12:46 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Mouse
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 1:47 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Help with Access to Old Hard Drive
I don't recall the specifics as to why they used
80 conductor wired
for a 40 pin connection; I believe it had something to do with
reducing crosstalk & interference at the higher speeds of the (at that
time) newer hard drives.
The version I saw is that the other half of the wires are grounded at the
CPU end and exist as shielding for the other lines - basically, as you say,
to reduce crosstalk and other intra-line interference.
While I'm a good deal less sure of this, I also have the impression that
there is some other difference - an otherwise unused pin grounded in the
connector? - which (a) serves to notify the host electronics that it's got
an 80-wire cable and (b) means that the host connector is operationally
different from the drive connectors (which isn't the case for 40-wire
cabling).
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
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You could use an 80 wire cable even on the old drives, but it would not make
any difference. To make a difference, the connector on the motherboard had
to be something other than black (usually blue). 80 pin cables allowed for
faster access to the data on hard drives. 80 pin cables also provided
additional capabilities; if connected to a CD or DVD, you did not have to
use a sound cable to get music from the speakers. ATA33 was the original,
then ATA66, then ATA100, then ATA133.
Cindy
1:06 p.m.
On May 15, 2014, at 14:47, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:
Both are correct. It's an important distinction to make;
if you're co-opting a 40-pin 100-mil connector for some
other purpose because IDE cables are common as dirt,
you need to be aware of the multitude of pins that
are tied together at the connector as ground. If you're
clever and have enough pins to spare, you can make
use of the improved signal quality, but you can do some
real damage if you just try to reuse them willy-nilly.
In any case, you can use either cable with most IDE drives,
but you won't get above ATA-33 without using an
80-conductor cable. 80-conductor cable, as long as it's
following the standard, also has the "cable select" conductor
disconnected for the far end plug. Also, in my personal
experience, 80-conductor cables have the "key" pin
plugged a lot more often than their 40-conductor brethren,
making them a right pain when you have a board that
doesn't have the key pin snipped.
- Dave
I don't
recall the specifics as to why they used 80 conductor wired
for a 40 pin connection; I believe it had something to do with
reducing crosstalk & interference at the higher speeds of the (at
that time) newer hard drives.
The version I saw is that the other half of the wires are grounded at
the CPU end and exist as shielding for the other lines - basically, as
you say, to reduce crosstalk and other intra-line interference.
While I'm a good deal less sure of this, I also have the impression
that there is some other difference - an otherwise unused pin grounded
in the connector? - which (a) serves to notify the host electronics
that it's got an 80-wire cable and (b) means that the host connector is
operationally different from the drive connectors (which isn't the case
for 40-wire cabling). 
11:59 a.m.
On 05/15/2014 10:10 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Thu, 15 May 2014, Ryan Brooks wrote:
Easy--the adapters that I have simply plug right into the 40-position
header of the drive--no cable required. There are also headers for a
SATA cable as well as the 44-position 2mm-spaced "laptop" PATA drives.
You do need to supply power to the drive, however.
Heaven knows, however, how XP would react to this sort of setup.
--Chuck
An external USB -> pata/sata adapter is nice
for things like this.
How do you connect a "double cabled" IDE drive to an
external USB -> pata/sata adapter?
10:19 a.m.
On 06/30/2014 09:05 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
The system that I have to work with is a Windows XP
with SATA
drives, but also with an IDE interface which supported a DVD drive
with a standard 40 pin cable, but the DVD drive is no longer in use.
While it probably does not matter, on this Windows XP system,
all of the partitions on all of the SATA drives are also FAT32.
I have access to Partition Magic to be able to activate and name
the partitions on the old IDE ATA 100 hard drive.
Is it likely that I can just attach the old IDE ATA 100 drive to the
IDE cable on the Windows XP system and access the files I want
to copy from one of the partitions? Alternatively, do I need to use
the DOUBLED 40 pin cable used with the old ATA 100 hard drive
when it was used in the Windows 98SE system?
Stick with the 80-conductor cable. While a 40 conductor cable is
supposed to be tolerated by UDMA-capable controllers, I've run into at
least two situations where the driver insisted on using UDMA over a 40
conductor cable, with the resulting data loss errors.
One fly in the ointment may be that your subject machine may well try to
boot from the FAT32 drive in preference to your SATA drives, unless your
BIOS setup allows for selective booting (many do, using F12 as a way of
getting a boot device menu).
Personally, I'd boot up my favorite flavor of Linux from a Live CD and
then mount the IDE drive as read-only partitions. That way, there's no
chance you'll accidentally write on it. AFAIK, most common Linux
distros understand most flavors of Microsoft file systems, including FAT32.
FWIW,
Chuck
11:20 a.m.
Personally, I'd boot up my favorite flavor of
Linux from a Live CD and
then mount the IDE drive as read-only partitions. That way, there's no
chance you'll accidentally write on it. AFAIK, most common Linux
distros understand most flavors of Microsoft file systems, including
FAT32.
FWIW,
Chuck
Yes, this is what I do regularly.
I really like linux's disk handling. I'd use any of the linux "rescue"
disks that are out there. They have all the utilities required on the
disk.
http://ubuntu-rescue-remix.org/
One utility in particular is called "ddrescue" and will let you image
partially broken hard drives in an intelligent manner.
You image the drive first, and then do all of your "work" off of the
image. You can mount the drive directly read-only like Chuck said, but if
it's an older drive, the data is very valuable, or if there's damage
suspected, then do yourself a favor and image the whole thing first.
Then you can mount the image, just as if it's a regular hard drive, and
then do your work from that. You can then send the stuff via large USB
stick, FTP, or so on to another Windows machine, if that's the plan.
Good reading here too
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DataRecovery
Hope this helps.
Keith
3878
days inactive
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cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
fraveydank＠gmail.com -
jhfinedp3k＠compsys.to -
keithvz＠verizon.net -
mouse＠Rodents-Montreal.ORG -
ryan＠hack.net -
sales＠elecplus.com -
woyciesjes＠sbcglobal.net