26 Jun
2001
26 Jun
'01
10:51 a.m.
On June 26, Richard Erlacher wrote:
communication via the power mains, isn't it? My
notion to date has been that
the X-10 stuff is a mite costly, considering that one could hook up a triac, an
MOC30-something isolated triac driver, and a PIC, e.g. one of the 14-pin or
even 8-pin parts, and put the thing in the box with the switch.
Costly? A 300W dimmer module costs like nine bucks. When I add up the
price of the components required to duplicate that, I have trouble
figuring out where they're making a profit.
They're all PIC-based, by the way...the modern dimmer modules contain
12c508 chips.
It would be an interesting job, actually, though the
MCU would be largely
wasted. It's smaller than an equivalent set of CMOS logic, though.
Well, the 12c508 is a *tiny* processor with a *tiny* control
store...
-Dave McGuire
26 Jun
26 Jun
11:25 a.m.
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1:40 p.m.
On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
This probably explains why X10 is not at all popular
in the UK (and yes,
a 230V version does exist). I seem to remember that last time I looked at
the price of the modules they were all about \pounds 40.00 each. And the
computer [1] interface was about \pounds 90.00. I decided it was going to
be far too expensive for me to use.
Around here (USA), the modules are typically about $15, and occasionally
available cheap.
[1] Wintel, only, alas. Totally useless to me.
But if you go CLASSIC, ...
Radio Shack sold (past tense) a computer interface for TRS-80, and
Coco. IIRC, it connected to the cassette port.
There are also a number of serial port units.
There are also controllers that have an IR port (for use with a remote
control), if you are willing to do a little extra programming.
Some of the first controllers had an ultrasonic remote control!
As to reliability:
Of the couple of dozen modules that I put in 23 years ago, all of the
plug-in lamp modules and most of the plug-in appliance modules have
died. All but one of the wall switch modules (toggle style with
delayed local response) died (although the surviving one is in heavy
usage!). Almost none of the replacements (push button) have died. Some
of the old controllers will not reliably control some of the units
(possibly related to which other ones are on).
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
4:36 p.m.
On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
Correct, and also required a ROM pack for the programming firmware.
- don
This probably explains why X10 is not at all
popular in the UK (and yes,
a 230V version does exist). I seem to remember that last time I looked at
the price of the modules they were all about \pounds 40.00 each. And the
computer [1] interface was about \pounds 90.00. I decided it was going to
be far too expensive for me to use.
Around here (USA), the modules are typically about $15, and occasionally
available cheap.
[1] Wintel, only, alas. Totally useless to me.
But if you go CLASSIC, ...
Radio Shack sold (past tense) a computer interface for TRS-80, and
Coco. IIRC, it connected to the cassette port. There are also a number of serial port units.
There are also controllers that have an IR port (for use with a remote
control), if you are willing to do a little extra programming.
Some of the first controllers had an ultrasonic remote control!
As to reliability:
Of the couple of dozen modules that I put in 23 years ago, all of the
plug-in lamp modules and most of the plug-in appliance modules have
died. All but one of the wall switch modules (toggle style with
delayed local response) died (although the surviving one is in heavy
usage!). Almost none of the replacements (push button) have died. Some
of the old controllers will not reliably control some of the units
(possibly related to which other ones are on).
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
27 Jun
27 Jun
1:29 a.m.
This probably
explains why X10 is not at all popular in the UK (and yes,
a 230V version does exist). I seem to remember that last time I looked at
the price of the modules they were all about \pounds 40.00 each. And the
computer [1] interface was about \pounds 90.00. I decided it was going to
be far too expensive for me to use.
Around here (USA), the modules are typically about $15, and occasionally
available cheap. 
3:41 a.m.
Does anybody have any X-10 software for the Apple II?
I do have the X-10 software for the C64. We got permission from the company
to post it to comp.binaries.cbm -- the company owners were tickled people
were still using C64s to control the modules, and said go ahead as long as
it isn't sold.
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- Test-tube babies shouldn't throw stones. -----------------------------------
4:36 a.m.
--- Cameron Kaiser <spectre(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu> wrote:
I still use my CP-290 with a C-64 (that is, when I happen to have the CP-290
plugged _in_). Mostly, though, I've been using palm pads, not computer
control. Got lots of X-10 stuff, more in boxes than in the walls. Some of
it works, some has died over the past 10 years. Got one wall-switch module
that only works over the AC lines (dead pushbutton), another that doesn't
respond electronically, but the tiny override switch works. Someday, I
might pull them both and combine them. :-)
I was offered a *huge* box (> 1 cu ft) of modules at Dayton for $0.25 each.
The seller said they didn't work and I didn't feel like speculating on a
mondo pile of RS returns. I might have gotten the whole box for the cost
of two or three modules, but the time involved to test them all was worth
more than I felt they were worth.
-ethan
=====
Visit "The Seventh Continent"
http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
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Does anybody
have any X-10 software for the Apple II?
I do have the X-10 software for the C64. We got permission from the company
to post it to comp.binaries.cbm -- the company owners were tickled people
were still using C64s to control the modules, and said go ahead as long as
it isn't sold. 
4:53 a.m.
As for your only over the AC line wall switch, I've had them like that and
rebuilt them and they actually last longer than the original once the
tension is put back. I've only had one to actually be broken inside so I
took it back to RS and they gave me a new one (I know the manager so it was
easy). Wanna huess what they do with the old broken one - that's right -
circular file (it's a write-off).
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 11:37 AM
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: X-10 (was Re: controlling power)
--- Cameron Kaiser <spectre(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu> wrote:
company
Does anybody
have any X-10 software for the Apple II?
I do have the X-10 software for the C64. We got permission from the to post it to comp.binaries.cbm -- the company owners
were tickled people
were still using C64s to control the modules, and said go ahead as long as
it isn't sold.
I still use my CP-290 with a C-64 (that is, when I happen to have the CP-290
plugged _in_). Mostly, though, I've been using palm pads, not computer
control. Got lots of X-10 stuff, more in boxes than in the walls. Some of
it works, some has died over the past 10 years. Got one wall-switch module
that only works over the AC lines (dead pushbutton), another that doesn't
respond electronically, but the tiny override switch works. Someday, I
might pull them both and combine them. :-)
I was offered a *huge* box (> 1 cu ft) of modules at Dayton for $0.25 each.
The seller said they didn't work and I didn't feel like speculating on a
mondo pile of RS returns. I might have gotten the whole box for the cost
of two or three modules, but the time involved to test them all was worth
more than I felt they were worth.
-ethan
=====
Visit "The Seventh Continent"
http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
__________________________________________________
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Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
4:23 p.m.
28 Jun
28 Jun
7:29 a.m.
--- Paul Braun <nerdware(a)laidbak.com> wrote:
<<snippage>>
> I was offered a *huge* box (> 1
cu ft) of modules at Dayton for $0.25
> each.
Wow! Were you there when he had just dragged them out of his
van? I might have been standing right next to you and not even
known it.
Maybe... I'm 5'6", long, brown ponytail, clean shaven (at the moment), and
might have been wearing "glacier glasses" (my only prescription sunglasses)
if it was sunny enough to need them (which was _not_ often that Friday).
I pawed through the boxes, too, but after seeing
"reject" written on
80% of the items, I opted not to waste any more time.
Me, too, although I have bought items at Dayton marked "defective" - got a
3Com 3c905 that way for free - the seller threw it in as a freebie because
I bought _something_ from him - took it home, plugged it in and am still
using it. I suspected that the thing that was most likely to be defective
was the bench-tech who tested it. I was right. Doesn't mean I want to
test 200 lamp modules, though.
-ethan
=====
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http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
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11:09 a.m.
I've gotten tons of stuff like that from my last two employers - offered to
test and/or repair for some overtime but they just wanted to get rid of the
stuff. I presently have a Dell 17" monitor I use in the shop that was thrown
out by day shift and I reclaimed - needed a tweek on the brightness pot and
it's been fine for the last year. Like wise I got 2 4.3gb Microplis SCSI
drives that were "defective" but only needed someone that knew how they are
supposed to be terminated to make them work right. They're my main drives
for my RAID array in my Dell 486 server (with Kingston Turbochip 133).
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
-> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks
-> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 2:30 PM
-> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
-> Subject: Re: X-10 (was Re: controlling power)
-> > I pawed through the boxes, too, but after seeing "reject" written on
-> > 80% of the items, I opted not to waste any more time.
->
-> Me, too, although I have bought items at Dayton marked
-> "defective" - got a
-> 3Com 3c905 that way for free - the seller threw it in as a
-> freebie because
-> I bought _something_ from him - took it home, plugged it in and am still
-> using it. I suspected that the thing that was most likely to be
-> defective
-> was the bench-tech who tested it. I was right. Doesn't mean I want to
-> test 200 lamp modules, though.
->
-> -ethan
1:46 p.m.
--- Paul Braun <nerdware(a)laidbak.com> wrote:
<<snippage>>
> I was offered a *huge* box (> 1
cu ft) of modules at Dayton for
> $0.25 each.
Wow! Were you there when he had just dragged them out of his
van? I might have been standing right next to you and not even known
it.
Maybe... I'm 5'6", long, brown ponytail, clean shaven (at the moment),
and might have been wearing "glacier glasses" (my only prescription
sunglasses) if it was sunny enough to need them (which was _not_ often
that Friday).
That sounds familiar....I probably did see you.
I'm about 6'1", was wearing some sort of hat...probably my Novell
hat, and was wearing an embroidered "Heil Sound" shirt (I was a
semi-official employee for the weekend...)
And yes, Friday was a joy for those of us wandering the flea
market. I made it through the early sprinkles, bought 5 Storage
Dimensions raid cabinets, and grabbed my umbrella when I toted
'em back to my car.
I gave up, however, when the really black clouds and lightning
moved in.... decided it was no longer fun.
I pawed
through the boxes, too, but after seeing "reject" written on
80% of the items, I opted not to waste any more time.
Me, too, although I have bought items at Dayton marked "defective" -
got a 3Com 3c905 that way for free - the seller threw it in as a
freebie because I bought _something_ from him - took it home, plugged
it in and am still using it. I suspected that the thing that was most
likely to be defective was the bench-tech who tested it. I was right.
Doesn't mean I want to test 200 lamp modules, though.
27 Jun
27 Jun
7:03 a.m.
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26 Jun
26 Jun
2:46 p.m.
You guys must not have seen my post.....
I'm running the CM-10 with LINUX, and the other popular interfaces
(including Firecracker) have Linux support available all over the 'net.
[1] Wintel, only, alas. Totally useless to me.
- Matt
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler
Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er...
11:52 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
X10 in the UK/EU is expensive.
On June 26, Richard Erlacher wrote:
This probably explains why X10 is not at all popular in the UK (and yes,
a 230V version does exist). I seem to remember that last time I looked at
the price of the modules they were all about \pounds 40.00 each. And the
computer [1] interface was about \pounds 90.00. I decided it was going to
be far too expensive for me to use. communication via the power mains, isn't it?
My notion to date has been that
the X-10 stuff is a mite costly, considering that one could hook up a triac, an
MOC30-something isolated triac driver, and a PIC, e.g. one of the 14-pin or
even 8-pin parts, and put the thing in the box with the switch.
Costly? A 300W dimmer module costs like nine bucks. When I add up the [1] Wintel, only, alas. Totally useless to me.
Take a look at my pages, you'll think outherwise. :-)
> They're all PIC-based, by the way...the
modern dimmer modules contain
> 12c508 chips.
Some are PIC based, the newer ones are, some of the modules are not.
I am not suprised. I think they used to be based on
some kind of ASIC,
but it would make sense for them to use PICs now.
The 'Old School Hacking' community is using PIC, AVR, and Zilog controllers
to interface between the AC and the PC. We've come up with some interesting
hacks. See Dave Houston's (http://www.laser.com/dhouston/bx24-aht.htm) pages
for a really good example.
--
Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry(a)home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge)
6:43 p.m.
'seems the prices have gone down some since I last looked.
I looked into the X10 stuff about a decade back and it was about $120 to get
into the things, IIRC. Then you had to have an outlet into which to plug them,
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave McGuire" <mcguire(a)neurotica.com
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: X-10 (was Re: controlling power)
well ... the 12C508 costs $0.35, the logic-input triac probably costs $0.30 ...
they can probably make a buck.
They require a central controller, though,
don't they? What do those cost?
> They're all PIC-based, by the
way...the modern dimmer modules contain
> 12c508 chips.
> > It would be an interesting job,
actually, though the MCU would be largely
> > wasted. It's smaller than an equivalent set of CMOS logic, though.
> Well, the 12c508 is a *tiny* processor
with a *tiny* control store...
It probably has more than enough control store,
as it just has to count up and
down for each pair of interruptions of a pair of beams of light. The
12C-whatevers don't have much I/O, though. The arrangement I had in mind
wouldn't require the aid of a central controller and the communication with it,
but would require it be able to "see" a pair of photosensors, e.g.
phototransistors, and pulse an LED at a fairly high rate, in order to determine
which way the interruption was traveling, thereby making it possible to
determine when there were no more people downstream of the control, indicating,
therefore, that nobody would benefit from the turned-on light. Including a
small transformer and regulator, the best I could do probably wouldn't cost
under $9, though, but it would fit in the box with the light switch and wouldn't
need a master controller.
> -Dave McGuire
On June 26, Richard Erlacher wrote:
> communication via the power mains, isn't it? My notion to date has been
that
> the X-10 stuff is a mite costly, considering that
one could hook up a triac,
an
MOC30-something isolated triac driver, and a PIC, e.g. one of the 14-pin or
even 8-pin parts, and put the thing in the box with the switch.
Costly? A 300W dimmer module costs like nine bucks. When I add up the
price of the components required to duplicate that, I have trouble
figuring out where they're making a profit.
27 Jun
27 Jun
4:50 a.m.
On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
'seems the prices have gone down some since I last
looked.
I looked into the X10 stuff about a decade back and it was about $120 to get
into the things, IIRC. Then you had to have an outlet into which to plug them,
You don't need to do EVERY switch in the house to "get into" it. You just
need ONE switch that is inconvenient enough to rationalize the "need".
23 years ago, the cost to "get into" X10 was about $30 - $40 from Radio
Shack, or Sears. That was $15 - $25 for a controller, and about $15 per
module, which included wall switches and duplex outlets, neither one of
which "had to have an outlet into which to plug".
BTW, the wall switch modules in those days resembled a normal toggle wall
switch, except that when you turned the light on locally (by flipping the
switch, it delayed a second before turning on. Some people couldn't
handle that. Also, when the local switch was in the down position, the
light could not be controlled remotely. The newer switches are push
button, with a slide switch for lock-out.
Now the modules are about $15, but they have become commonplace enough
that there are occasional special deals, such as $2 or $3 modules.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
8578
days inactive
8580
days old
16 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
donm＠cts.com -
edick＠idcomm.com -
ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
msell＠ontimesupport.com -
ncherry＠home.com -
nerdware＠laidbak.com -
owad＠applefritter.com -
rhblake＠bigfoot.com -
spectre＠stockholm.ptloma.edu