11 Sep
1998
11 Sep
'98
5:29 a.m.
>> Woha. Dont open. At least that what's I
would do
>> (especialy since my Apple /// was stolen 2 weeks ago :().
>> Try to get a second one.
Who stole your Apple ///?
Who ? I guess some bad guys.
And under what circumstances??
They opened the basement dor on the backside of the house, and
worked their way up into the computer rooms.
> To late, already openned it. I never really had
any intention of
> leaving it wrapped. I bought it that way because I knew everything
> would be there and I wanted to use it in my Apple ///. BTW, sorry
> to hear about your Apple ///. Hope they didn't get anything else.
> That has always worried me. Anyone breaking in wouldn't know
> what this stuff really was and would think they just found
> something that would get them thousands at the pawn shop.
Well, if your Altair was stolen and the pawn shop
owner hung out on the
computer sections of eBay, then it might actually be worth thousands at
the pawn shop :)
Its exacte wat I think hapened - the APPLE /// (no plus!) was
the most prominent device on the big table. I think he was the
only thing close to a PC in their eyes (An APPLE // 'tower' with
two Profile Harddisks, Monitor /// and an external Disk /// drive).
I think it will be sold on some kind of fleamarket. They also
destroyed some stuff, opened two originaly packed Atari 400,
trashed an Enterprise. They also took a prototype BTX telephone
unit an various small stuff - including almost all of my C64
and VC20 cartridges. Also one of the PETs is gone (an ordinary
4016) and, thats the funiest thing, the CRT of a Sirus - only
the CRT the computer and the stand is still available.
I'm very happy that they didn't know what was laying in front
of them - they took none of the KIMs or the other ols single
boarders, non of the real devices like SWTP or Heatkit.
My problem is that I should monitor now all major flea markts,
but I'm leaving for the VCF this saturday :(
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
11 Sep
11 Sep
8:12 a.m.
On 11 Sep 98, at 14:30, Hans Franke wrote:
I think it will be sold on some kind of fleamarket.
They also
destroyed some stuff, opened two originaly packed Atari 400,
trashed an Enterprise. They also took a prototype BTX telephone
unit an various small stuff - including almost all of my C64
and VC20 cartridges. Also one of the PETs is gone (an ordinary
4016) and, thats the funiest thing, the CRT of a Sirus - only
the CRT the computer and the stand is still available.
Arg, destroyed an Enterprise? That's one I've always wanted to see
but since the company had a short life in Europe only I don't
expect I will. Back before I really started collecting, someone
broken in and tried to take my AT&T 6300. The cables were all
screwed into the back around the sides of the desk's hutch. Since
they were in a hurry they just tried to pick it up and run. The
cables snapped so they left it. Took a friend's PC and left my
Amiga 500. Guess they thought it was just a spare keyboard or
something. Had some other systems but those were all that were
in the house at the time.
-----
David Williams - Computer Packrat
dlw(a)trailingedge.com
http://www.trailingedge.com
6:04 p.m.
David Williams wrote:
Arg, destroyed an Enterprise? That's one I've
always wanted to see
but since the company had a short life in Europe only I don't
expect I will. Back before I really started collecting, someone
broken in and tried to take my AT&T 6300. The cables were all
screwed into the back around the sides of the desk's hutch. Since
they were in a hurry they just tried to pick it up and run. The
cables snapped so they left it. Took a friend's PC and left my
Amiga 500. Guess they thought it was just a spare keyboard or
something. Had some other systems but those were all that were
in the house at the time.
My apartment was burglarized back in the early 80s. Missing was a
32k TRS-80 Color Computer with disk drive and Line Printer 8 and a
Tandyvision One (the relabeled Mattel Intellivision), that latter
bought the previous day on closeout ($25 less 10% employee discount).
The place was trashed somewhat, and they ignored a couple thousand
bucks worth of semi-precious stones and an amber necklace that my
ex-wife had from her grandmother that would easily pawn a K.
It was the day that the first copy of OS-9 arrived at the Radio
Shack Computer Center where I did tech support. I went home with
every intent of finally breaking the seal to see if it would go
live with 64k. It was not a good day.
My subscription copy of 80-Micro was on the couch. Neither my ex-
wife nor I had brought it in. This was in the peak years, when it
wouldn't fit into an apartment house mail niche and instead went
into the trough underneath the mailboxes. The best assumption is
that a couple of kids came through, noticed the magazine, thought
"maybe this guy's got a computer, let's go look". The cop who
took the report demonstrated how easy it was to open our type of
patio door.
--
Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/>
When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any
firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright
6:54 p.m.
On 11 Sep 98, at 23:04, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
The best assumption is
that a couple of kids came through, noticed the magazine, thought
"maybe this guy's got a computer, let's go look".
This is the sort of thing that always crosses my mind whenever I
bring in a new piece of equipment and have to carry it in from the
parking lot.
-----
David Williams - Computer Packrat
dlw(a)trailingedge.com
http://www.trailingedge.com
7:42 p.m.
David Williams wrote:
On 11 Sep 98, at 23:04, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
In my neighborhood these days (in those days I was in Los Angeles,
a lovely town if Sacramento was plowed back into the swamp on which
it was built) in New Jersey, the locals remember how my current
wife took a baseball bat to to the guy crowbarring open the back
door -- he bruised her knee a bit, she put him out. The local cops
were going to book her for child abuse (17 years old, 5'11", 190#),
but they eased up when inquiries brought out that when his folks
brought him with them from Brazil a decade back they forgot to
check him (and themselves) in with the INS. They also tried to
confiscate the baseball bat, but she reminded one of the cops of
the things he used to do when she babysat him as a child.
A couple years back, when we were having part of the attic finished,
the building inspector noticed the number of computers and tried for
a bribe based on his (incorrect at the time) assumption that we must
be running a business out of the house. Lisa went to high school
with the jerk. That part was cleared up no problem. (The bribe to
get the building permit was merely the way these things are done here
in Hudson County, the scale is relatively consistent).
Gods, but I want to get out of this hellhole and move to Wyoming.
--
Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/>
When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any
firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright
The best assumption is
that a couple of kids came through, noticed the magazine, thought
"maybe this guy's got a computer, let's go look".
This is the sort of thing that always crosses my mind whenever I
bring in a new piece of equipment and have to carry it in from the
parking lot. 
7:53 p.m.
New subject: Radio Shack Model ][ available (Portland Oregon)
I have decided at long last to part with a Model 2 of unknown condition.
The only thing I know is that the keyboard cable is slightly crushed at
the keyboard connector end. The System comes with a couple of hard drives
also of unknown condition.
Please be prepared to pick this up in the Beaverton Oregon area as this
isn't something that I'd really want to ship.
=========================================================
George L. Rachor george(a)racsys.rt.rain.com
Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com
8:21 p.m.
New subject: Radio Shack Model ][ available (Portland Oregon)
Wow! Several responses in just a few minutes.
I'm not really looking for $$$ for these. I'm looking to trade for
something smaller. I've just aquired an original Next cube and need
Nextstep software on Magnito/optical.
An Apple ][ LCD panel would be nice <grin!>
George
=========================================================
George L. Rachor george(a)racsys.rt.rain.com
Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com
On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, George Rachor wrote:
I have decided at long last to part with a Model 2 of
unknown condition.
The only thing I know is that the keyboard cable is slightly crushed at
the keyboard connector end. The System comes with a couple of hard drives
also of unknown condition.
Please be prepared to pick this up in the Beaverton Oregon area as this
isn't something that I'd really want to ship.
=========================================================
George L. Rachor george(a)racsys.rt.rain.com
Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com
12 Sep
12 Sep
8:47 a.m.
New subject: Radio Shack Model ][ available (Portland Oregon)
On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, George Rachor wrote:
I'm not really looking for $$$ for these. I'm
looking to trade for
something smaller. I've just aquired an original Next cube and need
Nextstep software on Magnito/optical.
I've got copies of NEXTSTEP on MO through version 3.0 and while I haven't
any spare copies, I do have a few spare MOs.
What version were you looking for? I'd recommend 2.11 if it's an '030
cube.
ok
r.
12:29 p.m.
New subject: Osborne Vixen
An Osborne Vixen followed me home today. Can somebody familiar with these
things tell me if I have a *RARE* *VALUABLE* prototype? It doesn't look
exactly like the one in the brochure:
http://www.ncsc.dni.us/fun/user/tcc/cmuseum/vixen.htm
For one thing, it doesn't actually say Vixen on it anywhere (except on the
floppy in the drive), for another the floppy drives are arranged
horizontally rather than vertically, and for yet another the serial number
starts off with EXP.
Does anybody know if the production version included a GPIB port (mine has
one). I don't suppose anybody would like to offer me Vixen manuals, eh?
-- Doug
12:43 p.m.
New subject: Osborne Vixen
On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:
An Osborne Vixen followed me home today. Can somebody
familiar with these
things tell me if I have a *RARE* *VALUABLE* prototype? It doesn't look
exactly like the one in the brochure:
http://www.ncsc.dni.us/fun/user/tcc/cmuseum/vixen.htm
For one thing, it doesn't actually say Vixen on it anywhere (except on the
They were officially known as the Osborne 4.
floppy in the drive), for another the floppy drives
are arranged
horizontally rather than vertically, and for yet another the serial number
starts off with EXP.
The drives orientation is nonstandard. Can't comment on the S/N.
Does anybody know if the production version included a
GPIB port (mine has
I think that is nonstandard also.
- don
one). I don't suppose anybody would like to offer
me Vixen manuals, eh?
-- Doug
1:36 p.m.
New subject: Osborne Vixen
On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Don Maslin wrote:
They were officially known as the Osborne 4.
Mine only says OSBORNE. I suspect mine has a smaller display than the
production model -- it looks like a 5" diag. If anybody else thinks they
have this same version, please let me know. Otherwise, I'll start
bragging about it on my web page as the only surviving specimen!
OK, you twisted my arm, here are a couple of pix:
http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/osborne/vixen1.jpg
http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/osborne/vixen2.jpg
-- Doug
16 Sep
16 Sep
5:45 a.m.
New subject: Osborne Encore / Zenith Z170
Here is an interesting find for all you computer buffs..
I found a Zenith Z170 Lunch Box PC at a local Thrift store last week.
Could'nt find anything out about it, until I saw an Osborne Encore, its
Identical
except the Osborne is Gray, and the Zenith is a natural white..
I know that Adam Osborne's company went belly-up around this time 1984, is it
possible that he sold the machine rights to Zenith ?
This machine is really cool, boots up in DOS, has the smallest dual 5-1/4
floppy I have ever seen for its time period..
Here is a WebSite that shows the Osborne version of it..
http://www.insset.u-picardie.fr/museum/english/pages_museum/encore.htm
Phil...
5:57 a.m.
New subject: Osborne Encore / Zenith Z170
Reprinted form the Dead,Gone and Obsolite Computer WebSite:
The Osborne Encore is not the successor of the famous Osborne 1.
Few times after launching the successor of the Osborne 1, the
Osborne Executive, Osborne Corp. had serious financial problems
and stopped all its activities. The founder of the company, Adam
Osborne created then a research company and the result of his
work is the Osborne Encore. It is a MSDOS computer. The Encore
has a built-in modem (I don't know its speed). The keyboard has
four 'icon' keys which call small program located in ROM : the
"phone" key calls the communication software, the "clock" key
calls a calendar, the "disk" key boots the system and the
"calculator" key calls the little calculator. The screen can
display only 16 lines, so only few MSDOS softwares can be used
(the lower 9 lines are invisible). When it was conceived, the
Encore had a 25 lines LCD screen, but when it was launched, it
had a 16 lines screen (?).
My Machine:
The Zenith Z170 has a composite jack that supports 24lines by 80 column, and
built in modem. Whats interesting about this computer is that it has build in
several things like a calendar, Memo pad, World map, and Calculator.. All this is
built in ROM, and runs before the machine is even booted..
Here,s the site again if anyone wants to visit...
http://www.insset.u-picardie.fr/museum/english/pages_museum/encore.htm
Phil...
5:40 p.m.
New subject: Osborne Encore / Zenith Z170
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Phil Clayton wrote:
I found a Zenith Z170 Lunch Box PC at a local Thrift
store last week.
Could'nt find anything out about it, until I saw an Osborne Encore, its
Identical except the Osborne is Gray, and the Zenith is a natural
white.. I know that Adam Osborne's company went belly-up around this
time 1984, is it possible that he sold the machine rights to Zenith ?
No. That lunchbox was made by Vadem and OEM'd by Morrow (the Pivot),
Zenith (Z170/Z171), Osborne (O3), and maybe others.
I think the Vixen (O4) was Osborne's last machine.
-- Doug
6:02 a.m.
New subject: Osborne Encore / Zenith Z170
Doug Yowza wrote:
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Phil Clayton wrote:
Do you have any more information about Vadem, the website I enclosed must be
incorrect then.Interesting to find out more of this machine..
Thanks for your info..
Phil...
Take a "Look-See" for yourself..
http://www.insset.u-picardie.fr/museum/english/pages_site/page_start.htm
I found a Zenith Z170 Lunch Box PC at a local
Thrift store last week.
Could'nt find anything out about it, until I saw an Osborne Encore, its
Identical except the Osborne is Gray, and the Zenith is a natural
white.. I know that Adam Osborne's company went belly-up around this
time 1984, is it possible that he sold the machine rights to Zenith ?
No. That lunchbox was made by Vadem and OEM'd by Morrow (the Pivot),
Zenith (Z170/Z171), Osborne (O3), and maybe others.
I think the Vixen (O4) was Osborne's last machine.
-- Doug
6:07 p.m.
New subject: Osborne Encore / Zenith Z170
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Phil Clayton wrote:
Do you have any more information about Vadem, the
website I enclosed
must be incorrect then.Interesting to find out more of this machine..
The collective mind of the web is forgetful :-) Unless a site provides
references, take the info with a grain of salt.
Here's part of a conversation between our own Don Maslin and somebody who
was actually there:
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=240328861
Zenith won a couple of huge gov't contracts with that machine (including
the IRS), which explains both why they're so easy to find and why there
were two models -- Z170 and Z171 (I don't remember which was the gov't
model).
-- Doug
6:50 a.m.
New subject: Osborne Encore / Zenith Z170
Doug Yowza wrote:
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Phil Clayton wrote:
This is execellent information Doug, Thanks very much. I printed the
discussion of the above web site for keeping with the unit. I try to get as
much information as possible whenever I find such a rare find (At least What
I thought was Rare) <Grin>
Do you know how many Adam Osborne produced, and was it before Zenith got into
the picture with it.. ?
An IRS computer Huh!! And the Navy to, very interesting..
Phil...
Do you have any more information about Vadem, the
website I enclosed
must be incorrect then.Interesting to find out more of this machine..
The collective mind of the web is forgetful :-) Unless a site provides
references, take the info with a grain of salt.
Here's part of a conversation between our own Don Maslin and somebody who
was actually there:
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=240328861
Zenith won a couple of huge gov't contracts with that machine (including
the IRS), which explains both why they're so easy to find and why there
were two models -- Z170 and Z171 (I don't remember which was the gov't
model).
-- Doug
6:46 p.m.
New subject: Osborne Encore / Zenith Z170
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Phil Clayton wrote:
Do you know how many Adam Osborne produced, and was it
before Zenith got
into the picture with it.. ?
Dunno. I think they all came out about the same time. In my experience,
the Zenith is the most common, followed by the Morrow, and the Osborne is
the rarest. If I ever got off my butt and developed the Comprehensive
Classic Computer Registry, then you could simply take the max of the
serial numbers in the registry to give you a rough idea of production
figures. The FCC ID of the unit will tell you who made it and when.
-- Doug
17 Sep
17 Sep
7:44 a.m.
New subject: CP/M-86 / MSDOS / DRDOS / GEM / Windows
I found the most interesting article on a web site about Gary Kildall, and
that CP/M could have possibly been our main stream OS.. How could so many
great ideas get lost in the big shuffle..?
I know everyone has been talking about GUI's, and according to this article
Digital Research did alot of work in this area.
Also Digital Research back in 1989 released a very good DOS called DRDOS, I
used this for awhile back in 1990 and was very impressed with its features,
then MS came out with a clone of it called MSDOS ver 6.0.. I still own
several original copies of DRDOS in unopened packages..
Check out this article its very interesting:
http://www.microtec.net/~dlessard/kildall.htm
Brings me to a question does anyone have a copy of the original DOS Version
1.0 ?
I would love to load this on one of my old XT's ..
Phil...
7:56 p.m.
New subject: CP/M-86 / MSDOS / DRDOS / GEM / Windows
On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Phil Clayton wrote:
I found the most interesting article on a web site
about Gary Kildall, and
that CP/M could have possibly been our main stream OS.
Oh my, the Mac crowd would have loved to make fun of PIP and friends.
That article reminds me of another point that hasn't yet been made in
this drawn-out discussion. Early PC GUI's (pre-Win3) could be bound to
individual applications. Ventura was a stand-alone GEM app. The AOL
client was a stand-alone GEOS app. I know there were stand-alone Win
apps, but I can't remember any names.
Just one more data-point that shows that computer evolution is
application-driven, not the result of marketing magic or of religious wars
between Microsoft and Apple.
-- Doug
10:41 p.m.
New subject: CP/M-86 / MSDOS / DRDOS / GEM / Windows
client was a stand-alone GEOS app. I know there were
stand-alone Win
apps, but I can't remember any names.
The only one I've ever seen was the game "Balance of Power". It's
Windows 1.x
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
18 Sep
18 Sep
8:46 a.m.
New subject: CP/M-86 / MSDOS / DRDOS / GEM / Windows
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2:09 p.m.
New subject: CP/M-86 / MSDOS / DRDOS / GEM / Windows
On Friday, September 18, 1998 3:42 AM,
CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu
wrote:
>client was a stand-alone GEOS app. I know there
were stand-alone Win
>apps, but I can't remember any names.
The only one I've ever seen was the game
"Balance of Power".
It's Windows 1.x
Micrografx Designer was another. It ran a stand alone 2.x Windows.
Al McCann
19 Sep
19 Sep
7:13 p.m.
New subject: CP/M-86 / MSDOS / DRDOS / GEM / Windows
On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Albert J. McCann, Jr. wrote:
When I started selling computers in 1990, we had Aldus Pagemaker (v?) on
the shelf. It included run-time windows v2.x.
Did this practice stop with Windows v3.0? Everything anyone has mentioned
here was v1 or v2.
ttyl
srw
>client was
a stand-alone GEOS app. I know there were stand-alone Win
>apps, but I can't remember any names.
The only one I've ever seen was the game
"Balance of Power".
It's Windows 1.x
Micrografx Designer was another. It ran a stand alone 2.x Windows.
7:27 p.m.
New subject: CP/M-86 / MSDOS / DRDOS / GEM / Windows
On Sat, 19 Sep 1998, Scott Walde wrote:
When I started selling computers in 1990, we had Aldus
Pagemaker (v?) on
the shelf. It included run-time windows v2.x.
Did this practice stop with Windows v3.0? Everything anyone has mentioned
here was v1 or v2.
Yes, Microsoft was intent on positioning Win3 as an operating system, not
as a mere GUI. As a developer at the time, I found this a bit presumptious
of them :-) I distinctly remember asking a Microsofty if Win3 would be
released in run-time form and getting a terse "no." It was clearly a
strategic descision.
-- Doug
18 Sep
18 Sep
11:53 a.m.
New subject: CP/M-86 / MSDOS / DRDOS / GEM / Windows
On 17 Sep 98 at 23:56, Doug Yowza wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Phil Clayton wrote:
There's an excellent stand-alone art program and image processor called
Neopaint from OSCS Software Development, Inc. not to be confused with Neochrome
which was shipped with the Atari ST. It works with Dos 3.1 and up or DRDOS
on any PC, XT, x86 and a Hercules, CGA,EGA,VGA,or SVGA card. It requires 640k
and a mouse. Not sure when it came out but suspect late 80's. I suspect it's
GEM-based.
I think the importance of GEM is often overlooked. The Berkley GEOS
for Commodores is obviously GEM despite the disclaimers of C= proponents.
The Atari ST had GEM 1.2 in Rom and was never forced to relinquish it by
Apple.Why ? The DR GUI versus Apple is the key IMHO. I see that DR's
copyright was 1985.
One of the things that drove the acceptance of the GUI was that office
managers could train new employees to use a computer in a day using point and
click rather than having to remember the multitude of CLI instructions. Gates
simply jumped on a bandwagon that was already there. The DR <> MS relationship
is also another interesting link. TMK DR's successor Caldera still owns the
MSDOS source-code. Not sure of the ins and outs of this.
I found the most interesting article on a web
site about Gary Kildall, and
that CP/M could have possibly been our main stream OS.
Oh my, the Mac crowd would have loved to make fun of PIP and friends.
That article reminds me of another point that hasn't yet been made in
this drawn-out discussion. Early PC GUI's (pre-Win3) could be bound to
individual applications. Ventura was a stand-alone GEM app. The AOL
client was a stand-alone GEOS app. I know there were stand-alone Win
apps, but I can't remember any names.
Just one more data-point that shows that computer
evolution is
application-driven, not the result of marketing magic or of religious wars
between Microsoft and Apple.
-- Doug
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
10:50 p.m.
New subject: CP/M-86 / MSDOS / DRDOS / GEM / Windows
Lawrence Walker wrote:
simply jumped on a bandwagon that was already there.
The DR <> MS relationship
is also another interesting link. TMK DR's successor Caldera still owns the
MSDOS source-code. Not sure of the ins and outs of this.
That turns out not to be the case. Caldera got the rights to DRDOS
from Novell, who got it from DR. DRDOS was a direct
descendant of
CP/M with MSDOS functionality added -- no common source. MSDOS
started as a CP/M clone by Seattle Computing (QDOS) who licensed it
to Microsoft (so the story goes) when they got tired of explaining
"Quick & Dirty Operating System" to clients. Caldera doesn't own
any source code Microsoft ever was convicted of using -- "look and
feel" is a different can of worms.
Those elements from 2.0 on that make MSDOS really different from
(not necessarily superior to) come from the Xenix porting effort.
While MS was never able to make it a product (they let Altos, Tandy,
IBM and SCO do that -- in that order), it gave them the concepts of
subdirectories, "device independance" and pipes (though MSDOS pipes
were really "command1 >tmpfile;command2 <tmpfile;rm tmpfile" -- the
very thing that the guys at Murray Hill developed pipes to avoid).
--
Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/>
When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any
firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright
17 Sep
17 Sep
8:39 p.m.
New subject: CP/M-86 / MSDOS / DRDOS / GEM / Windows
On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Phil Clayton wrote:
Check out this article its very interesting:
http://www.microtec.net/~dlessard/kildall.htm
I hate when people do lazy research.
CP/M actually stands for Control Program/Monitor.
While I don't know for sure, I suspected PL/M stands for Programming
Language/Monitor and not Programming Language/Microprocessor.
The Intel 4004 was NOT the first microprocessor, although that's an error
in fact that will be cleared up for good after the Vintage Computer
Festival.
By 1978, Sharp and Zenith had yet to even create computer divisions, let
alone have computers running CP/M.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 09/12/98]
5:10 p.m.
New subject: CP/M-86 / MSDOS / DRDOS / GEM / Windows
On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Phil Clayton wrote:
Perhaps the author made a small error or typo in His or Her research, however to
say the research on this article was "Lazy" seems a bit to strong a word on
your
part. Overall I was very impressed with this Web site and the artcle. I personally
gained a lot of knowledge from the article.. I give it an A+
BTW: Does anyone have a genuine copy of DOS ver 1.0 ?
Phil...
Check out this article its very interesting:
http://www.microtec.net/~dlessard/kildall.htm
I hate when people do lazy research.
CP/M actually stands for Control Program/Monitor.
18 Sep
18 Sep
5:58 a.m.
New subject: CP/M-86 / MSDOS / DRDOS / GEM / Windows
Phil Clayton wrote:
BTW: Does anyone have a genuine copy of DOS ver 1.0 ?
I've been looking for a number of years now for DOS 1.0. The best I have
been able to do was to buy a still shrinkwarpped DOS 1.1 a few years ago.
Does anyone know/remember how long DOS 1.0 was actually out before it was
upgraded?
8:14 a.m.
New subject: CP/M-86 / MSDOS / DRDOS / GEM / Windows
On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Marvin wrote:
I've been looking for a number of years now for
DOS 1.0. The best I have
been able to do was to buy a still shrinkwarpped DOS 1.1 a few years ago.
Does anyone know/remember how long DOS 1.0 was actually out before it was
upgraded?
I too have a DOS 1.1 package. I'm wondering if 1.0 was only release WITH
the PC, and was not available separately as the 1.1 upgrade was?
Someone who was paying attention back then then should be able to shed
some light on this.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 09/12/98]
10:50 a.m.
New subject: CP/M-86 / MSDOS / DRDOS / GEM / Windows
Sam Ismail wrote:
I too have a DOS 1.1 package. I'm wondering if
1.0 was only release WITH
the PC, and was not available separately as the 1.1 upgrade was?
Someone who was paying attention back then then should be able to shed
some light on this.
I really would love to get even just a copy of DOS Ver 1.0, OK! I'll
settly for Ver 1.1 DOS.. I have an old XT thats is needs it really bad..
I'll send ya a return postage paid diskette mailer for a copy, can
anyone help ?
I also have a copy someone gave me of Windows Ver 1.0 , have never tried
it yet..
Has anyone seen this yet ?
--Phil
10:50 a.m.
New subject: CP/M-86 / MSDOS / DRDOS / GEM / Windows
Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> wrote:
I've been looking for a number of years now for
DOS 1.0. The best I have
been able to do was to buy a still shrinkwarpped DOS 1.1 a few years ago.
Does anyone know/remember how long DOS 1.0 was actually out before it was
upgraded?
Not very long. Most people have forgotten that IBM DOS 1.0 only supported the
160K disk format (single-sided, 8 sectors per track). In fact, most people
have forgotten that there even *was* a 160K format, but the DOS FORMAT command
supports it to this day, along with the 180K and 320K formats, and the much
better known 360K format.
10:47 a.m.
New subject: CP/M-86 / MSDOS / DRDOS / GEM / Windows
Phil Clayton <handyman(a)sprintmail.com> wrote:
BTW: Does anyone have a genuine copy of DOS ver 1.0
?
What kind of DOS? I've used several different operating systems on radically
different machines that all were called DOS version 1.0.
Assuming you're talking about IBM-DOS, though, I do have a copy somewhere.
I don't recall whether it was version 1.0 or 1.00.
AFAIK, Microsoft never released MS-DOS with a version number of 1.0. The
earliest I ever saw was 1.11, released at about the same time as IBM DOS 1.10,
and soon followed by MS-DOS 1.25.
Personally, I think 86-DOS and QDOS are more interesting. I've got an 86-DOS
manual set but no disks.
10:33 a.m.
New subject: CP/M-86 / MSDOS / DRDOS / GEM / Windows
Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> wrote:
The Intel 4004 was NOT the first microprocessor,
although that's an error
in fact that will be cleared up for good after the Vintage Computer
Festival.
I'll look forward to hearing about that. But the 4004 was certainly the
first mass-produced microprocessor, which is more significant.
Cheers,
Eric
11:39 a.m.
New subject: CP/M-86 / MSDOS / DRDOS / GEM / Windows
On 18 Sep 1998, Eric Smith wrote:
Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> wrote:
There's no doubt that the 4004 had significance. But not as much
technically as Intel would want you to believe.
And I think an argument could be made that the microprocessor to be
unveiled at the Vintage Computer Festival was "mass-produced". It was
produced in significant quantities to say the least. It had to be. It
provided the control for one of America's most lethal flying machines.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 09/12/98]
The Intel 4004 was NOT the first microprocessor,
although that's an error
in fact that will be cleared up for good after the Vintage Computer
Festival.
I'll look forward to hearing about that. But the 4004 was certainly the
first mass-produced microprocessor, which is more significant. 
16 Sep
16 Sep
8:58 p.m.
New subject: Osborne Encore / Zenith Z170
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Phil Clayton wrote:
Doug Yowza wrote:
**** snip ****
> No. That lunchbox was made by Vadem and
OEM'd by Morrow (the Pivot),
> Zenith (Z170/Z171), Osborne (O3), and maybe others.
**** snip ****
Do you have any more information about Vadem, the
website I enclosed must be
incorrect then.Interesting to find out more of this machine..
Thanks for your info..
Vadem was involved in a lot of things - most visibly as a software
house. They wrote the code for some of Ampro's EPROMs, and some some for
the Xerox 820 as I recall. I have no idea whether they are still around.
- don
12 Sep
12 Sep
4:55 p.m.
New subject: Osborne Vixen
On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:
An Osborne Vixen followed me home today. Can somebody
familiar with these
things tell me if I have a *RARE* *VALUABLE* prototype? It doesn't look
exactly like the one in the brochure:
I went downstairs to compare mine, saw how much of a hassle it would be to
dig it out, then turned around and headed right back upstairs.
For one thing, it doesn't actually say Vixen on it
anywhere (except on the
floppy in the drive), for another the floppy drives are arranged
horizontally rather than vertically, and for yet another the serial number
starts off with EXP.
I'm pretty certain mine said "Vixen".
Ok, my curiousity getting the best of me, I went downstairs and, risking
great bodily injury and pulling muscles, I managed to dig out my Vixen
while nearly destroying multiple machines in the process.
Does anybody know if the production version included a
GPIB port (mine has
one). I don't suppose anybody would like to offer me Vixen manuals, eh?
Mine has the GPIB port. On the front, underneath the screen, mine has a
badge that say "O4 Vixen". My drives are vertically oriented. My serial
number is "FR000 001632 with the "FR000" being part of the label and the
"001632" being stamped on.
I would say it would be a reasonable assumption that you have an early
prototype. Your case must be sufficiently different as I can't see
how you could rotate the drives horizontally on this. What is the rest of
the serial number?
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 08/25/98]
3:44 p.m.
New subject: NeXT [was Re: Radio Shack Model ][ available (Portland Oregon)]
Hi,
The most alarming thing I used to enjoy about an 030 cube is that
you can boot and run NeXTStep, a Windows-NT counterpart, in 4
megabytes of RAM.
Not that you'd want to... though you can set one up as a stable
lightweight network file server and such. I ran Windows Networking
(Samba), Columbia Appletalk, NFS and web server, perl and CGI
effectively on a 16 mb machine for quite awhile. There are also
various cron-based things you can do with the DSP chip and audio that
take up only moderate amounts CPU bandwidth that I did. All in all
these machines are a heck of a lot of fun not only as a hobbyist
machine but also in various useful roles.
While my TRS-80 Model 16 sits in the corner, the NeXT machines both
at office and at home are working hard and are on the net.
And it looks like I'll be picking up another cube on Monday.
Joy of joys! YIPPEEEE!
BTW... about hooking older machines to the net. I've heard that
someone has crammed UDP, IP and ARP into a tiny PIC microcontroller.
Does anyone know anything about this? I would kind of like to set
up my Trs-80 Mod 4 on the net for various reasons.
Thomas
5:14 p.m.
New subject: NeXT [was Re: Radio Shack Model ][ available (Portland Oregon)]
It was thus said that the Great Thomas Pfaff once stated:
BTW... about hooking older machines to the net. I've heard that
someone has crammed UDP, IP and ARP into a tiny PIC microcontroller.
Does anyone know anything about this? I would kind of like to set
up my Trs-80 Mod 4 on the net for various reasons.
I've heard rumors of IP (not TCP/IP, just IP) being written for the C-64
(along with PPP or SLIP I assume). Apparently, the port only had IP and
ICMP (Internet Control Message Protocol---at the same layer as IP) as
nothing else could fit in 64k. IP isn't that difficult (and uncompressed
SLIP is pretty easy as well). UDP is just a user accessable (under UNIX)
version (more or less) of IP (unreliable datagram protocol, but I think UDP
stands for User Datagram Protocol, as a datagram protocol is unreliable by
definition if I recall correctly).
-spc (Quick question: how common are ARCNET cards for PCs and Tandy
6000s? I know there are Linux drivers for ARCNET cards, and I
have two Tandy 6000s ... )
8:54 p.m.
New subject: NeXT [was Re: Radio Shack Model ][ available (Portland Oregon)]
Captain Napalm wrote:
-spc (Quick question: how common are ARCNET cards
for PCs and Tandy
6000s? I know there are Linux drivers for ARCNET cards, and I
have two Tandy 6000s ... )
Not especially common, not especially rare. Trouble is, the
software for the Model II (there were never Xenix drivers for
Arcnet for the Tandy 6000) is incompatible with anybody else's
Arcnet software, even Tandy's Vianet which connected Tandy and
other PCs in a peer-to-peer network (though at least the Tandy
2000 got in on that one). An Arcnet card in a Model 2 or 12
or in a 16 or 6000 in Z-80 mode will only talk to others of its
own kind. And Ghod only knows where any copies of the server
software might be (Model 2 Arcnet was _not_ peer-to-peer).
About the best way to connect a Tandy 68k Xenix system to the
world is through a serial link to a Linux box. As I've done.
Hopefully when I finally have a permanent link from my Linux
communication server to the Internet, it will be possible for
folks to login to my 6000HD (and one of my AT&T 7300s) from a
secured telnet session to Linux and the old cu command (or
maybe minicom).
I suppose it might be possible to somehow port slip to Tandy
Xenix. I am not capable of doing so, however.
--
Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/>
When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked me if I had any
firearms with me. I said "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright
9:20 p.m.
New subject: UDP on 1970's micros [was Re: NeXT]
The neat thing about using a PIC chip is that it's external... so
with a little extra logic you can route it through either a parallel
or serial port.
UDP is User Datagram Protocol... it's good enough that you can write
simple clients and servers to transfer data. Many servers can be
switched from TCP to UDP services on any unix machine or a tiny
daemon can be written to do the routing. So you could access a web
server on the net via a TRS-80 this way.
Of course it would be nice to have full TCP/IP available but it's
considerably more work.
There is a stack for the C64. I'd like something that is portable,
a widget that plugs on the back of a variety of early PCs. Something
like a box with a Z180 board, with serial and ethernet on board
would be very nice for a full network implementation.
Ironically the upstart company I helped "startup" does all of this
in a gate level implementation [no processor required] but it's
available only as an embeddable logic core for integration into
things like cellular phones and kids toys.
Anyway, UDP is good enough as long as you do checksums on the data
that comes through. Obviously you couldn't run a web server using
UDP very well. TCP/IP would be more fun because as an exercise you
could host a web server on computers from the 1970's.
Also if you did TCP/IP, IP, ARP and PPP all in software on a 1970's
micro you probably couldn't do a whole lot else in RAM. However, a
dedicated embedded SBC between your
Trs-80 and your Sun Sparcstation could allow your Trs-80 to do quite
a bit and would simplify data transfers to and from the net, etc.
It could be made simple too... type in a small BASIC program to
program your IP address and bootstrap your network connection. It
could be that easy [no floppies required].
I mentioned the PIC controller with UDP first because they are small
and egg-stremely cheap.
Thomas
Begin forwarded message:
I've heard rumors of IP (not TCP/IP, just IP) being written for the C-64
(along with PPP or SLIP I assume). Apparently, the port only had IP and
ICMP (Internet Control Message Protocol---at the same layer as IP) as
nothing else could fit in 64k. IP isn't that difficult (and uncompressed
SLIP is pretty easy as well). UDP is just a user accessable (under UNIX)
version (more or less) of IP (unreliable datagram protocol, but I
think UDP
stands for User Datagram Protocol, as a datagram protocol is unreliable by
definition if I recall correctly).
13 Sep
13 Sep
10:10 a.m.
New subject: NeXT [was Re: Radio Shack Model ][ available (Portland Oregon)]
On Sat, 12 Sep 98 17:44:17 -0700
Thomas Pfaff <thomas100(a)home.com> wrote:
Hi,
The most alarming thing I used to enjoy about an 030 cube is that
you can boot and run NeXTStep, a Windows-NT counterpart, in 4
megabytes of RAM.
I missed alot of this thread, but could you please explain how the
Nextstep operating system is related to NT?
--
============================================================---------
Dominique Cormann Email:kozmik@wave.home.com
Posted with Becky 1.24 --> http://www.rimarts.co.jp/becky.htm
1:11 p.m.
New subject: NeXT [was Re: Radio Shack Model ][ available (Portland Oregon)]
Hi,
You didn't miss that much.
Windows NT was essentially patterned after NeXTStep, though it still
has a way to go in order to catch up. Assuming you believe that
dynamic binding is an inevitable innovation and DLLs are the
brain-dead broken mess they are, NT still has a long way to go to
catch up to where NeXTStep was. There are other issues as well that
push NT back to the cro-magon era, but dynamic binding is the issue
that always sticks in my head since it yields overall improvements in
application performance and reliability at the same time.
Thomas
----
_someone said:_
I missed alot of this thread, but could you please explain how the
Nextstep operating system is related to NT?
--
============================================================---------
Dominique Cormann Email:kozmik@wave.home.com
Posted with Becky 1.24 --> http://www.rimarts.co.jp/becky.htm
12 Sep
12 Sep
4:31 a.m.
Ward Donald
Griffiths III wrote:
A couple years back, when we were having part of the attic
finished,
the building inspector noticed the number of computers and tried for
a bribe based on his (incorrect at the time) assumption that we must
be running a business out of the house. Lisa went to high school
with the jerk. That part was cleared up no problem. (The bribe to
get the building permit was merely the way these things are done here
in Hudson County, the scale is relatively consistent).
Gods, but I want to get out of this hellhole and move to Wyoming.
9432
days inactive
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45 comments
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amc358＠interserv.com -
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dlw＠trailingedge.com -
donm＠cts.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
franke＠sbs.de -
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gram＠cnct.com -
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marvin＠rain.org -
pechter＠shell.monmouth.com -
red＠bears.org -
rigdonj＠intellistar.net -
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