3 Sep
2010
3 Sep
'10
10:52 a.m.
Has anyone ever seen the MINC BASIC system? It wsa
essentally an
interpreted BASIC with routines to do thigns like generate and display
(on a VT105) a historgram of pulse heights, things like that. I don't
have it myself, I think I have some of the manuals for it.
I got it with my mini-MINC, essentially a PDT-150. But it came without
the VT-105, so no graphics. Later I got a VT-125, which should emulate a
VT-105, but apparantly not seamless.
The images of the disks are here:
http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/miniminc/floppyImages/info.html. I
also have the manual set, but scanned the mini-MINC specific parts only
so far (http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/miniminc/doc/).
-tony
Fred Jan
3 Sep
3 Sep
11:03 a.m.
On 9/3/10, F.J. Kraan <fjkraan at xs4all.nl> wrote:
I should get my VT105 and my PDT-150 in the same room.
Thanks for sharing the MiniMINC stuff. It's got me thinking what I
could do for data collection via serial port (a lot, given how cheap
an Atmel MCU is these days, and how easy it is to read temp, etc, from
one of those and format the results as ASCII strings).
-ethan
Has anyone
ever seen the MINC BASIC system? ...
I got it with my mini-MINC, essentially a PDT-150. But it came without
the VT-105, so no graphics. 
11:52 a.m.
I got it with my mini-MINC, essentially a PDT-150. But
it came without
This has always puzzled me. The PDT-150 is essentally a closed system, no
expansion bus. And AFAIK it doens'timclude a ADC. So what makes a
mini-MINC a modular _intstrument_ computer. How do you use it to
meaurevoltages or whatever?
-tony
12:42 p.m.
On 09/03/2010 02:52 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
PDT-150 is a bounded system, no internal options to speak of
(assuming full memory and serial option). As is the PDT130
(TU58 mass storage) and PDT110 (no mass storage).
It has multiple serial ports. A/D, D/A and other general IO can be done
via
serial communications.
I'm sure if it had a IEE488 bus port you would not have asked the question
but, serial works and there are many instruments out there that have serial
as an option. I know this as I'd used a Keithly High resolution DMM with
a external 4 wire switch (also serial control) to build a 10 position
test station.
Allison
I got it with
my mini-MINC, essentially a PDT-150. But it came without
This has always puzzled me. The PDT-150 is essentally a closed system, no
expansion bus. And AFAIK it doens'timclude a ADC. So what makes a
mini-MINC a modular _intstrument_ computer. How do you use it to
meaurevoltages or whatever?
-tony
4 Sep
4 Sep
11:15 a.m.
PDT-150 is a bounded system, no internal options to
speak of
That's waht I thought.
(assuming full memory and serial option). As is the
PDT130
(TU58 mass storage) and PDT110 (no mass storage).
It has multiple serial ports. A/D, D/A and other general IO can be done
via
serial communications.
It's certainly possible, but it wasn't that common at the time. Did DEC
make ADC and/or DAC modules with serial interfaces for it? Was there
software to talk to such devices (other than send/receive a string
to/from a seiral port)?
I am wondering how this machine differed in its 'instrumentation'
capabilites from any other machine with a couple of spare serial ports.
How does it jsutify its name?
I'm sure if it had a IEE488 bus port you would not have asked the question
Indeed I wouldn't...
but, serial works and there are many instruments out
there that have serial
as an option. I know this as I'd used a Keithly High resolution DMM with
At that time HP were selling ADC, DAC, timing generator, relay, etc
modules with an IEEE-488 interface. The ADC I am refering to is not a
complete DVMor DMM unit, but a simple 11 bit ADC with much the same
capabilities as the one that goes into a MINC-11 Were other companies
selling similar units with RS232 interfaces?
a external 4 wire switch (also serial control) to
build a 10 position
test station.
-tony
2 p.m.
On 09/04/2010 02:15 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
No but it was possible to use M,K and other sries modules to do it yourself.
As to not common, here (usa) it was, of course it wasn't cheap.
Yes, National instruments, Keithly, Simpson, HP[with options],
Tektronix and a multitude of smaller companies. It was not
uncommon to use a complete 3-5000(US$) instrument
just to test a specialized part because it was flexible or
offered a very high order of resolution and accuracy
(>5digits). Most ADC board were usually 10 to maybe
14 bits when the application needed 20 or more.
You only have to remember that by time the PDT series hit
the 8080/8085/z80/8048/8051/6502/6800 cpus were well
entrenched in the instrumentation market and but needed
a host with more power to do serious data reduction and
PDP11 was a common choice (DG nova.. others) as the
PC was not there yet (or taken seriously).
Allison
PDT-150 is a
bounded system, no internal options to speak of
That's waht I thought.
(assuming full memory and serial option). As is
the PDT130
(TU58 mass storage) and PDT110 (no mass storage).
It has multiple serial ports. A/D, D/A and other general IO can be done
via
serial communications.
It's certainly possible, but it wasn't that common at the time. Did
DEC
make ADC and/or DAC modules with serial interfaces for it? Was there
software to talk to such devices (other than send/receive a string
to/from a seiral port)?
I am wondering how this machine differed in its
'instrumentation'
capabilites from any other machine with a couple of spare serial ports.
How does it jsutify its name?
Packaged software.
I'm sure
if it had a IEE488 bus port you would not have asked the question
Indeed I wouldn't...
but, serial works and there are many instruments
out there that have serial
as an option. I know this as I'd used a Keithly High resolution DMM with
At that time HP were selling ADC, DAC, timing generator, relay, etc
modules with an IEEE-488 interface. The ADC I am refering to is not a
complete DVMor DMM unit, but a simple 11 bit ADC with much the same
capabilities as the one that goes into a MINC-11 Were other companies
selling similar units with RS232 interfaces?
5 Sep
5 Sep
9:34 a.m.
It has multiple serial ports. A/D, D/A and other
general IO can be done
via
serial communications.
It's certainly possible, but it wasn't that common at the time. Did
DEC
make ADC and/or DAC modules with serial interfaces for it? Was there
software to talk to such devices (other than send/receive a string
to/from a seiral port)?
As to not common, here (usa) it was, of course it wasn't cheap.
I will admit the only ADC/DAC modules I've worked with (as opposed to
complete instruments that have computer interface ports) are the HP ones
which of course have HPIB/IEEE488 interfaces. Was there an an RS232
equivalent of, say, the HP59313 ADC?
How does it
jsutify its name?
Packaged software. At that time
HP were selling ADC, DAC, timing generator, relay, etc
modules with an IEEE-488 interface. The ADC I am refering to is not a
complete DVMor DMM unit, but a simple 11 bit ADC with much the same
capabilities as the one that goes into a MINC-11 Were other companies
selling similar units with RS232 interfaces?
Yes, National instruments, Keithly, Simpson, HP[with options],
Tektronix and a multitude of smaller companies. It was not uncommon to use a complete 3-5000(US$) instrument
just to test a specialized part because it was flexible or
offered a very high order of resolution and accuracy
(>5digits). Most ADC board were usually 10 to maybe
14 bits when the application needed 20 or more.
That depends -- a lot -- on the application. I've done things where I'm
glad of the (reliable) 5 digits from an HP DMM. I've done things where 6
bits wre enough/
You only have to remember that by time the PDT series hit
the 8080/8085/z80/8048/8051/6502/6800 cpus were well
entrenched in the instrumentation market and but needed
Personally I wouldn't consider (or have considered at that time) a
machine as an instrumetnion controller if there wasn't an IEEE-488 port
eiterh built-in or as an option.
a host with more power to do serious data reduction
and
HP9845? HP9000/200 machines were starting to appear around then too.
-tony
12:21 p.m.
On 09/05/2010 12:34 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
No but it was possible to use M,K and other sries modules to do it
yourself.
Sure, but that doesn't seem like much liess work than designing the
whole
data logger from scratch.
OK.
For measuirng instruments, sure. But not for building-block modules/.
I'll cut to the chase, in the window of 1980 there were not a lot of
IEEE488 as it was harder to do as there were barely chip level
solutions emerging.
But the gear that did 488 were often also available as serial 232
You could get building block systems that would do a few or many bits
of IO and low end analog too. In the industries I was around then
you often needed high accuracy or enough IO to make switches
and valves happen. I would continue to see that through the early
90s when PLCs and PCs were starting to enter the picture.
The most interesting building block system was a plant that
packed Ice tea in aseptic boxes in the mid 90s. The host was
a S100 Cromemco!) crate with 6 serial lines no parallel
save for the MX80 printer. I might add nice color graphics too.
Why serial, the wires can be far longer in exchange for speed
(beyond 15M) and much cheaper. Speed was rarely an issue.
Ever see a 15M IEEE488 cable or buy one?
The only place outside of DEC I'd seen traditional MINCs were
for lab rat experiments in the academic world or the occasional
private collection. Even DEC would build register transfer machines
out of modules to do tasks internally (factory) and control it with a
PDP-8 or larger machine.
Allison
It has
multiple serial ports. A/D, D/A and other general IO can be done
via
serial communications.
It's certainly possible, but it wasn't that common at the time.
Did DEC
make ADC and/or DAC modules with serial interfaces for it? Was there
software to talk to such devices (other than send/receive a string
to/from a seiral port)?
As to not common, here (usa) it was, of course
it wasn't cheap.
I will admit the only ADC/DAC modules I've worked with (as opposed to
complete instruments that have computer interface ports) are the HP ones
which of course have HPIB/IEEE488 interfaces. Was there an an RS232
equivalent of, say, the HP59313 ADC?
How does
it jsutify its name?
Packaged software.
At that
time HP were selling ADC, DAC, timing generator, relay, etc
modules with an IEEE-488 interface. The ADC I am refering to is not a
complete DVMor DMM unit, but a simple 11 bit ADC with much the same
capabilities as the one that goes into a MINC-11 Were other companies
selling similar units with RS232 interfaces?
Yes, National instruments, Keithly, Simpson, HP[with options],
Tektronix and a multitude of smaller companies. It was not
uncommon to use a complete 3-5000(US$)
instrument
just to test a specialized part because it was flexible or
offered a very high order of resolution and accuracy
(>5digits). Most ADC board were usually 10 to maybe
14 bits when the application needed 20 or more.
That depends -- a lot -- on the application. I've done things where
I'm
glad of the (reliable) 5 digits from an HP DMM. I've done things where 6
bits wre enough/
You only have to remember that by time the PDT
series hit
the 8080/8085/z80/8048/8051/6502/6800 cpus were well
entrenched in the instrumentation market and but needed
Personally I wouldn't consider (or have considered at that time) a
machine as an instrumetnion controller if there wasn't an IEEE-488 port
eiterh built-in or as an option.
a host with more power to do serious data
reduction and
HP9845? HP9000/200 machines were starting to appear around then too.
-tony
6 Sep
6 Sep
10:46 a.m.
I'll cut to the chase, in the window of 1980 there
were not a lot of
IEEE488 as it was harder to do as there were barely chip level
Maybe not a lot of manufacturers, but HP certainly made enough such
instruemtns. And actually, around 1900 there were several smaller
companies over here making GPIB building-blocks which were ofent
controlled by PETs.
solutions emerging.
You can trivially make a GPIB talker or listener in a few TTL chips. HP
almost always did it that way in their earlier dervices (for all the had
developned a single-chip HPIB interface)
But the gear that did 488 were often also available as serial 232
I can think of a lto of counterexamples...
Why serial, the wires can be far longer in exchange
for speed
(beyond 15M) and much cheaper. Speed was rarely an issue.
Ever see a 15M IEEE488 cable or buy one?
No, but there were IEEE-488 'extenders' which could use a twisted pair
connection or a pair of dial-up modems avaialble from virtually the
start. Take a look at the hP59403, for example.
I've run 10 or more IEEE-488 building blocks off a single interface. I
wonder just how many computers could take that many serial ports.
The only place outside of DEC I'd seen traditional MINCs were
for lab rat experiments in the academic world or the occasional
As I mentioned earlier, I have 3 MINCs. The 2 hard-disk ones (twin RL01s)
came from the phgsics departemnt of a university. The floppy-drive
MINC-23 came from the research labs of a utility company. I have no real
idea what any were used for,
I must admit I've seen many more HP-bnsed data acquisition systems,
9825s, 9836s, 9816s, etc.
-tony
3 Sep
3 Sep
1:32 p.m.
On 9/3/10, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Directly, there isn't an obvious way. I'm guessing they sold the
MiniMINC for writing analysis code more than for direct measurement,
though it could sample data from some sort of serial data logger.
-etthan
I got it with
my mini-MINC, essentially a PDT-150. But it came without
This has always puzzled me. The PDT-150 is essentally a closed system, no
expansion bus. And AFAIK it doens'timclude a ADC. So what makes a
mini-MINC a modular _intstrument_ computer. How do you use it to
meaurevoltages or whatever? 
7:19 p.m.
I was thinking of using one to monitor my solar PV and heating systems, but
don't seem to have the time yet. i might look for canned software for a pc.
I have eztras for most of the boards if anyone is interested.
Paul
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
On 9/3/10, Tony Duell <ard at
p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Directly, there isn't an obvious way. I'm guessing they sold the
MiniMINC for writing analysis code more than for direct measurement,
though it could sample data from some sort of serial data logger.
-etthan
I got it
with my mini-MINC, essentially a PDT-150. But it came without
This has always puzzled me. The PDT-150 is essentally a closed system, no
expansion bus. And AFAIK it doens'timclude a ADC. So what makes a
mini-MINC a modular _intstrument_ computer. How do you use it to
meaurevoltages or whatever?
11:24 p.m.
On 9/3/10, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
On 9/3/10, Tony Duell <ard at
p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Directly, there isn't an obvious way. I'm guessing they sold the
MiniMINC for writing analysis code more than for direct measurement,
though it could sample data from some sort of serial data logger.
It's not period to the MiniMINC, but I have a stick-of-gum-sized
multi-channel analog input device with a DE-9 on one end. ISTR it has
four analog channels and it spits out readings over a 9600-N-1
connection. It was a freebie for answering a post card ad some years
back.
I'll pull it off the shelf and post the part number. Who knows? They
might have some modern (less than 10-year-old) descendant product.
-ethan
I got it
with my mini-MINC, essentially a PDT-150. But it came without
This has always puzzled me. The PDT-150 is essentally a closed system, no
expansion bus. And AFAIK it doens'timclude a ADC. So what makes a
mini-MINC a modular _intstrument_ computer. How do you use it to
meaurevoltages or whatever? 
4 Sep
4 Sep
12:41 a.m.
On 9/4/10 2:24 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
It's not period to the MiniMINC, but I have a
stick-of-gum-sized
multi-channel analog input device with a DE-9 on one end. ISTR it has
four analog channels and it spits out readings over a 9600-N-1
connection. It was a freebie for answering a post card ad some years
back.
I got one of those too! It's got a PIC on it, if memory serves. I
don't recall who sent those out. It annoyingly has double-sided tape on
the back.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
1:11 p.m.
On 9/4/10, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 9/4/10 2:24 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
That's the one. I should be able to lay hands on it later today.
-ethan
It's not period to the MiniMINC, but I have a
stick-of-gum-sized
multi-channel analog input device with a DE-9 on one end....
I got one of those too! It's got a PIC on it, if memory serves. I
don't recall who sent those out. It annoyingly has double-sided tape on
the back.
5221
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13 comments
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participants (6)
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ajp166＠verizon.net -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
fjkraan＠xs4all.nl -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
useddec＠gmail.com