3 Oct
1998
3 Oct
'98
7:09 a.m.
On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 Max Eskin wrote:
Is there a device that would allow _any_ disk,
independently of
format, including Apple ][ disks, to be read? I know Teledisk can do
this for all conventional formats, but not Apple disks. It would be
nice to connect one of these and read the disk image into a file.
The main reason why I ask is for rescuing messed up floppies...
There is a product called Catweasel which is available for the Amiga and PC
(ISA card). This is a floppy disk controller which is capable of reading and/or
writing many disk formats.
According to a magazine article that I have in front of me, the ISA version
currently supports (amongst others) Amiga DD & HD, Apple II, Mac 400K & 800K,
Commodore 1541 & 1571. I don't know whether reading Mac 400K & 800K disks
requires a non-standard type of 3.5" drive or not.
PC software support is apparently not too good at the moment, meaning that you
will have to write your own code for more exotic disk formats. The supplied
MS-DOS programs require a 486 for no good reason. A Linux driver is supplied,
but this is object code only, not source. (IMO trying to keep the software that
accesses the card private like this is a really silly thing to do.)
Anyway, the URL given was http://www.jshoenfeld.com/eindex.html
On Thu, 1 Oct 1998 Kai Kaltenbach wrote:
Atari ST uses DOS format in the first place. Amiga can
be read on the PC by
Amiga emulators. C64, I have no idea, but I know at least you could use a
C128 to copy files to CP/M format.
Amiga disks cannot be read by normal PC disk controllers.
You can make a cable to hook up a 1541 disk drive to a PC or Amiga and read
files or disk images using this.
-- Mark
3 Oct
3 Oct
8:27 a.m.
New subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on?
I hesitate to ask this question, since it may elicit some "religious"
responses as well as the intended ones...
I've been lurking on this group for quite a while, feeding my habit
with great stories of old machine rescues and resurrections. It's
great to hear of the machines folks have in their collections
or that are found and restore to operable condition. But I'm posing
a different question for the list: are there any "real home brew"
projects underway or that have been completed in the past? And to
keep it on topic, I suppose I should confine my question to home
brew computers that were started more than ten years ago or that use
technology more than ten years old.
I read a few of the news groups that discuss home brew computers, but,
lately they really only talk about plugging power supplies, motherboards
and peripherals together to make a (shudder) PC. I'm talking about
*REAL* iron (or aluminum.) Starting from basic relay, transistor, or IC
(SSI or MSI only!) and rolling a machine the "hard way." Recreations of
old machines (i.e. building your own PDP-1) would make a very
interesting discussions.
To start things, I'd like to offer that I'm in the process of recreating
a copy of Edmund Berkeley's "Simon" computer designed and built by him
in the 50's as a demonstration "show and tell" of how a "real"
computer
works. It's a collection of 100+ relays, two paper tape readers and
some blinkey lights. Version 1 was a "two bit" computer with the
ability to scale to 4 bits, while version 2 scaling to multiple precision
using a real CARRY! It's a small machine - "almost" a "laptop".
Right
now I'm collecting parts - specifically looking for the two paper tape
readers (solenoid operated - not motor driven - so if anyone out there
has one or two of these...)
For a reference to Simon, see the thirteen part series in Radio Electronics
magazine (US publication) from October 1950 through October 1951.
"Constructing Electronic Brains" by Edmund C. Berkeley and Robert A. Jensen.
There was also a cover article in Scientific American around that time -
sorry I don't have the issue handy with an overview of the project.
Anyway, tell me your stories.
Gary
8:47 a.m.
New subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on?
Funny about "synchronicity." I should have pulled my email
for yesterday - I would have seen the VCF "homebrew" item.
I'm not trying to "scoop" Sam - I would just like to hear
about any and all projects past or underway.
Gary
At 10:27 AM 10/3/98 -0700, you wrote:
I hesitate to ask this question, since it may elicit
some "religious"
responses as well as the intended ones...
I've been lurking on this group for quite a while, feeding my habit
with great stories of old machine rescues and resurrections. It's
great to hear of the machines folks have in their collections
or that are found and restore to operable condition. But I'm posing
a different question for the list: are there any "real home brew"
projects underway or that have been completed in the past? And to
keep it on topic, I suppose I should confine my question to home
brew computers that were started more than ten years ago or that use
technology more than ten years old.
...snip
Gary
9:13 a.m.
New subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on?
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2:09 p.m.
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2:01 p.m.
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2:46 p.m.
New subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on?
On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Gary Oliver wrote:
or that are found and restore to operable condition.
But I'm posing
a different question for the list: are there any "real home brew"
projects underway or that have been completed in the past? And to
You'll get many affirmative answers to this.
My own example is of a 19 year old in San Francisco who is building a
computer based on a mechanical relay-based controller of an old elevator.
He was all set to demonstrate it at the VCF but a day before he blew out
his "RAM" (a bunch of SCRs) due to a fatal flaw and it became useless.
Homebrewing is still going on. Its just not as prevalent any more because
each year the art dies a little more. I'm hoping to help revive it with
the VCF.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 09/21/98]
3:04 p.m.
New subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on?
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3:41 p.m.
New subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on?
On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote:
On the other hand, I have presented a number of
homebrew projects at the
HPCC (UK HP calculator user club) meetings and had next to 0 interest. So
perhaps I am one of the few remaining.
Well, that's kind of the feeling I get. I want to bring the folks who are
quietly inventing cool things in their garages back out into the open. I
think it would be great to revive the old Homebrew Computer Club here in
the Silicon Valley.
HINT: A Homebrew Computer Club reunion is currently in the embryo stage.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 09/21/98]
4 Oct
4 Oct
2:39 a.m.
New subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on?
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7:42 a.m.
New subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on?
On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote:
:) :) :) Very Friendly Rhetorical Question Follows: :) :) :)
And the reason(s) preventing you from originating UKVCF I is(are)?
Especially yourself, Tony... with your commitment and obvious
passion for the Art... and don't give me any 'busy' s***t.. Sam's
busy, I'm *busy*... but one makes time... no? Oui? Yup.
:) :) :)
I promise you: You do UKVCF and I'll make it over there....
Now, where's my gauntlet....
Cheers
John
Well,
that's kind of the feeling I get. I want to bring the folks who are
quietly inventing cool things in their garages back out into the open. I
think it would be great to revive the old Homebrew Computer Club here in
the Silicon Valley.
What a pity it's 6000 miles away :-(. This is the sort of thing that I
wish would happen in the UK. You can bet I'd join up.
8:10 a.m.
New subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on?
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8:05 p.m.
New subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on?
On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote:
I am totally useless at organising anything. There is
no way I could find
a suitable venue, book it, organise talks, etc. I wouldn't know where to
start.
Its easier than it seems. Just a lot of work.
Then there's the total lack of money. Owing to the
fact that I have no
I can vouch for that. It does require a goodly sum of money to do an
event decently. Be prepared for losses.
Now if somebody else wants to handle the admin side
and get some money
in, then I am quite happy to help with the technical side of things. But
I am not going to attempt to organise a VCF-like event on my own.
Its doable, but I wouldn't recommend it. :)
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 09/21/98]
5 Oct
5 Oct
8:36 a.m.
New subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on?
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3:38 p.m.
New subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on?
On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote:
I wouldn't attempt to do something like this
unless I could afford to pay
for the whole thing myself.
The trick is to convince companies to sponsor it. I'll have a much easier
time doing it next year than I did this year.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 09/21/98]
6 Oct
6 Oct
8:07 a.m.
New subject: UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?)
On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote:
Now, the cost of booking a room, etc doesn't vary too much with the
number of people. And I doubt if I'd get anything like 100 people coming
to UK-VCF.
It would be interesting just to see how many collectors in the UK (and
mainland Europe) would be interested in going to a UK VCF.
If you are, then reply to me directly at kevan(a)heydon.org and answer these
questions:
Would you be interested?
Where do you live? (just a rough idea of where would be best.)
Do you have anything interesting that you could show / talk about?
I'll summarise the results when the replies dry up.
--
Kevan
Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/
19 Oct
19 Oct
10:27 a.m.
New subject: UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?)
On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, I wrote:
It would be interesting just to see how many collectors in the UK (and
mainland Europe) would be interested in going to a UK VCF.
If you are, then reply to me directly at kevan(a)heydon.org and answer these
questions:
Would you be interested?
Where do you live? (just a rough idea of where would be best.)
Do you have anything interesting that you could show / talk about?
I'll summarise the results when the replies dry up.
Well the replies never really got started. I only got five replies, all
said they were interested. I can only conclude that there are not that
many UK collectors on this list.
--
Kevan
Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/
10:44 a.m.
New subject: UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?)
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1:39 p.m.
New subject: UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?)
On Mon, 19 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote:
I assume mine was one of them... If not, then it got lost in the system.
Yours was there.
I think this shows that organising a UK-VCF would be a
bad idea at the
moment. And for me to organise one, losing all the money I'd have to put
in would be a very bad idea.
Oh well. It would have been an interesting idea.
Yeah, and given the geographic spread of the people that did reply, even a
pub meet would be out of the question.
--
Kevan
Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/
4 Oct
4 Oct
7:48 p.m.
New subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on?
On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Tony Duell wrote:
Start it! See if there are enough folks in your area with an interest to
merit monthly meetings and go from there. If there aren't, well then at
least you tried. But you'll never known until you put the call out.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 09/21/98]
Well,
that's kind of the feeling I get. I want to bring the folks who are
quietly inventing cool things in their garages back out into the open. I
think it would be great to revive the old Homebrew Computer Club here in
the Silicon Valley.
What a pity it's 6000 miles away :-(. This is the sort of thing that I
wish would happen in the UK. You can bet I'd join up.
5 Oct
5 Oct
8:33 a.m.
New subject: Any *really* homebrewing going on?
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3 Oct
3 Oct
10:23 a.m.
On 3 Oct 98 at 16:09, Mark wrote:
On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 Max Eskin wrote:
While Catweasel purportedly works well on an Amiga, from all reports including
the info on it's home page ,the PC version leaves much to be desired. Oh well
it's a start. Something for PCs like Sydecs 22 disk would be lovely.
Is there a device that would allow _any_ disk,
independently of
format, including Apple ][ disks, to be read? I know Teledisk can do
this for all conventional formats, but not Apple disks. It would be
nice to connect one of these and read the disk image into a file.
The main reason why I ask is for rescuing messed up floppies...
There is a product called Catweasel which is available for the Amiga and PC
(ISA card). This is a floppy disk controller which is capable of reading and/or
writing many disk formats.
According to a magazine article that I have in front of me, the ISA version
currently supports (amongst others) Amiga DD & HD, Apple II, Mac 400K & 800K,
Commodore 1541 & 1571. I don't know whether reading Mac 400K & 800K disks
requires a non-standard type of 3.5" drive or not.
PC software support is apparently not too good at the moment, meaning that you
will have to write your own code for more exotic disk formats. The supplied
MS-DOS programs require a 486 for no good reason. A Linux driver is supplied,
but this is object code only, not source. (IMO trying to keep the software that
accesses the card private like this is a really silly thing to do.)
Anyway, the URL given was http://www.jshoenfeld.com/eindex.html
On Thu, 1 Oct 1998 Kai Kaltenbach wrote:
Atari's format is based on the MSDOS
but not all Atari disks can be read by
DOS. PC's added an identifying header on disks which the Atari doesn't use.
There are also programs that can format additional sectors to expand the disks
beyond 720k. Many of the old ST Format 'zine's free disks used to be formatted
with extra sectors so that they could cram more PD on disks. There was a rumor
that Fastcopy Pro could format the Rainbow quaddensity 5 1/4 SS disks. Haven't
tried it since I don't yet have a 5 1/4 hooked up to my ST. FCpro could also
format different step-rates and additional sectors as well as SS and DS disks.
Atari ST uses DOS format in the first place.
Amiga can be read on the PC by
Amiga emulators. C64, I have no idea, but I know at least you could use a
C128 to copy files to CP/M format.
Amiga disks cannot be read by normal PC disk
controllers.
When I get a Workbench disk for my newly acquired Amiga 2000 I'm going to
see if FCpro will copy the Amiga 880k format. Would be a solution to transfer
problems from the net.
Now if I could only find an easy way around the bastard Mac Plus and earlier
800k format.
You can make a cable to hook up a 1541 disk drive to a
PC or Amiga and read
files or disk images using this.
I take it you're referring to the X1541 cable. I wasn't aware that it
could be
used with Amigas. That looks promising.
-- Mark
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
4 Oct
4 Oct
3:52 a.m.
New subject: A Recent Rescue
I spent today traveling up the state to pick up some stuff that was going
out to be recycled or junked. Some of you who were at the VCF may remember
someone came to the VCF with some S-100 stuff, saw that I was the only one
(at that time) with S-100 stuff and gave it to me. I sold some of it for
him, but in the ensuing conversation, it turned out a friend of his had
died, and his family was sending all his old magazines, etc. to the
recycler.
*FORTUNATELY* when I was talking to him, I indicated an interest in the
older stuff, and he went back to see what he could salvage before it hit the
recycler. Way too much stuff to mention (and I haven't gone through it yet,
but one of the things I was really happy to get were volumes I through VIII
of the Conference Proceedings for the West Coast Computer Faires. Included
was also a number of the Computer Faire programs starting with the second,
and going up to the 15th or so (and missing some in between.) Also included
were early Popular Electronics (I'm told missing the Jan/Feb 75 issues),
early Bytes, a CREI Logic trainer and manuals, Heathkit H19, Heathkit H89A,
most of the Heathkit manuals, etc., etc., etc. Total volume was 25 cubic
feet.
5 Oct
5 Oct
6:28 a.m.
At 09:03 AM 10/4/98 -0400, Doug Spence wrote:
There was a commercial product called either DOS-2-DOS
or DISK-2-DISK (I
forget which) which was able to access 1541 disks on a filesystem level,
for reading AND writing.
That company was Central Coast Software, run by George Chamberlin.
He sold out to New Horizons, another pioneer Amiga company. Eventually
NH's assets (including all the source code) were auctioned off and
went at a discount price to a Canajun company whose name included
the word "wonder", and I don't know what happened to it after that.
I bid in the auction and missed it by a few hundred bucks. I wanted to
take all their products, source and docs, and sell them on a CD as is.
I have Dos-2-Dos (for DOS disks) and Disk-2-Disk (for C64 disks) in my
archives, along with the adapter cables to connect your 1541 or Amiga
5 1/4 drive. I've used the freeware copier, too, with the motor-speed
tweak to read 1541 disks on the Amiga, as well as the parallel-port
to 1541 DIN version for the PC.
However, I'd really like to find someone with knowledge of cracking
old C-64 protection schemes. My friends and I made a few games with
protection schemes, and we can't remember what we did, and so we
have no way to run our old games in an emulator. :-)
BTW, there's an excellent article by Betty Clay
entitled "Amiga Disk
Encoding Schemes" in Volume 3, Issue 1 of Amiga Transactor magazine. That
article, plus the Amiga Hardware Reference Manual and RKM: Libraries &
Devices were my starting points for the project.
You can reach Betty at <76702.337(a)compuserve.com>om>. She's quite a
character, one of the sysops of the Amiga area on Compuserve. She's
an ex-schoolteacher from Texas. Knew Amiga assembler better than I did.
I'm intrigued by the ideas for dirt-simple bit-streaming digitizing
hardware for rescuing old floppy data. Digitizing the strength of the
signal on the disk would go a long way to rescue old data, I think,
breaking the reliance on the old intermediate hardware to turn it
into a recognizable bitstream. I recall that one of our list members
does this sort of trick with old reel tapes: digitize the channels,
reconstruct at leisure using today's cheap hard disk space and CPU time.
- John
7:05 a.m.
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10 Oct
10 Oct
3 p.m.
On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, John Foust wrote:
At 09:03 AM 10/4/98 -0400, Doug Spence wrote:
I looked back into my archives and found that some of the New Horizons
stuff went to SoftWood, including ProWrite. Wonder Computers started
their Lazarus Engineering division based mostly on old NH stuff, I think.
According to a post I found from Jason Compton, some stuff went to Quasar
Distribution, Australia.
Jason was the spokesman for Wonder at around this time.
Lazarus Engineering at least managed to get a new version of DesignWorks
out the door before Wonder went belly up. (They're back in business as a
smaller Amiga store chain, but I don't know if Lazarus Engineering is
still with us.)
BTW: I found this post from you on this subject:
There was a commercial product called either
DOS-2-DOS or DISK-2-DISK (I
forget which) which was able to access 1541 disks on a filesystem level,
for reading AND writing.
That company was Central Coast Software, run by George Chamberlin.
He sold out to New Horizons, another pioneer Amiga company. Eventually
NH's assets (including all the source code) were auctioned off and
went at a discount price to a Canajun company whose name included
the word "wonder", and I don't know what happened to it after that. From: syndesis(a)beta.inc.net (John Foust)
Subject: New Horizons liquidation
Date: 5 Apr 1995 15:54:46 GMT
I missed the start of this thread, but when I called the
lawyer listed in the description, she said "they didn't
authorize that posting, it was done by a creditor who
took it upon herself." Sounds like someone wanted some
money.
Either way, Softwood got quite a deal... even as used
floppies, they're still worth 10 to 25 cents each, and
the white generic boxes might be worth twice that...
not to mention the value of the mailing list being sold
and re-sold. You can still rent C-64 mailing lists.
What was called "Lot 2" is still available, as the source
code for everything except Disk-2-Disk, minus the inventory,
which somehow went to Softwood, too, in court a few weeks ago,
for $2,250.
[Back to today]
I bid in the auction and missed it by a few hundred
bucks. I wanted to
take all their products, source and docs, and sell them on a CD as is.
That would have been excellent.
I've tried the Disk-2-Disk demo version that can be found on Aminet, and
the parts that weren't crippled do indeed seem to work. I guess most of
the demand for this kind of utility fell off sharply in the first few
years of the Amiga's existence as the user flow from C64 to Amiga died.
- John
--
Doug Spence
ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca
http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/
3 Oct
3 Oct
10:23 a.m.
There is a product called Catweasel which is available
for the Amiga and PC
(ISA card). This is a floppy disk controller which is capable of reading
and/or
writing many disk formats.
According to a magazine article that I have in front of me, the ISA version
currently supports (amongst others) Amiga DD & HD, Apple II, Mac 400K & 800K,
Commodore 1541 & 1571. I don't know whether reading Mac 400K & 800K disks
requires a non-standard type of 3.5" drive or not.
It requires a standard HD 3.5" or 5.25" if the PC version is anything like
the Amiga version. On the Amiga it's real selling point is adding HD 3.5"
floppies to your system.
PC software support is apparently not too good at the
moment, meaning that you
will have to write your own code for more exotic disk formats. The supplied
MS-DOS programs require a 486 for no good reason. A Linux driver is supplied,
but this is object code only, not source. (IMO trying to keep the software
that
accesses the card private like this is a really silly thing to do.)
The sad fact is that the support on the Amiga is even worse. From what one
of the creators told me when I wrote him trying to figure out how to read
all the different formats they claim to be able to read, the drivers have
never been written for the Amiga, dispite the claim it can read and write
them. He said the PC version has the software necessary to create Emulator
Images.
Anyway, the URL given was
http://www.jshoenfeld.com/eindex.html
I just tried and got told there was no DNS entry.
<RANT>
Why is it that in Netscape 4.5 anything you do is likely to dump you at the
Netscape web site. Coupled with all the GARBAGE they've added, and the
fact that the 4.5PR1 is time limited! It's a FREE program, give me a break
why do a time limit! Since the blasted program dumped me there I decided
to try to download a newer version. I get to the download page and it's in
Norweigen or something.
If IE wasn't so "Jittery" I'd consider actually using it. What ever
happened to quality products! The only good thing about Netscape 4.5PR1 is
it's the most stable version of Netscape I've run and it still crashes! If
someone would write a quality browser for the Mac I'd pay good money for it!
</RANT>
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
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26 comments
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participants (13)
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ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
ckaiser＠oa.ptloma.edu -
dastar＠ncal.verio.com -
ds_spenc＠alcor.concordia.ca -
go＠ao.com -
healyzh＠ix.netcom.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jpl15＠netcom.com -
kevan＠heydon.org -
lwalker＠mail.interlog.com -
mark_k＠iname.com -
marvin＠rain.org -
sethm＠loomcom.com