8 Jul
2004
8 Jul
'04
12:47 p.m.
Some people at Hewlett Packard are willing to explore an updated "Non-Commercial
Technology Enthusiast Software License" for older software products.
As a part of this process your input is encouraged. (By posting to the list HP would
be able to read your comments directly from the list archive, should they choose.)
Information on existing licenses is encouraged. (Existing DEC licenses, etc.)
This license is intended to add to existing Licenses and not to replace them.
Although, your input in this regard is also encouraged. (If you have problems
this would be a good time to get them out on the table.)
Just as HP is willing to look at this issue from our prospective, we would ask that
you also try to look at this issue from HP's prospective. (Don't just ask for the
moon.)
We would also like to ask if anyone knows the date of release of the last version of
HP1000 RTE and also if anyone may know the date of the End-Of-Life of the HP1000
product line. (Yes it would seem that HP was threatening to end-of-life the HP1000
as early as the late 70's or early 80's but we're looking for the final
end-of-life date.)
Some people at HP are considering a recomendation for a license to software that is older
than some age, and/or products that were at end-of-life more than some number of years
ago.
(The desire seems to be to exclude newer software such as HP3000 MPE from the license. The
license
would include software such as HP2000 Access. Inclusion of software such as HP1000 RTE
is to-be-determined)
Thanks in advance for all of the thoughtful input that this thread is sure to attract.
Mike Gemeny
8 Jul
8 Jul
1:56 p.m.
Right now I am doing the most spirited "Snoopy happy dance" you can possibly
imagine :)
Let me get some coherent thoughts together and I'll post more later. Sorry,
just couldn't contain the glee :)
Jay West
1:59 p.m.
Right now I am doing the most spirited "Snoopy
happy dance" you can possibly
imagine :)
Let me get some coherent thoughts together and I'll post more later. Sorry,
just couldn't contain the glee :)
VCFeast should have a "Snoopy happy dance" contest.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
2:26 p.m.
"Mike Gemeny" <MGemeny(a)pgcps.org> wrote:
We would also like to ask if anyone knows the date of
release of the
last version of HP1000 RTE and also if anyone may know the date of
the End-Of-Life of the HP1000 product line. (Yes it would seem that
HP was threatening to end-of-life the HP1000 as early as the late
70's or early 80's but we're looking for the final end-of-life
date.)
Well, there's end of sales life and end of support life, and if you're
thinking about the latter, we're not there yet.
<http://www.hp.com/products1/rte/news/rtn199947.txt> suggests that HP
was thinking to keep RTE-A on the price list as late as 01 Oct 2000
and makes reference to a planned discontinuance of the 1000 product
line in 2000.
<http://www.hp.com/products1/rte/index.html> claims that HP1000
products were removed from the price list on 01 Nov 2000.
Click around a bit, you'll find that some of the A-series hardware
doesn't reach end of support until 01 Nov 2005.
Somewhere or other I have some binders of project plans where HP was
trying to get The Wollongong Group interested in doing a sort of Unix
emulation around RTE-A (I think), with the game plan being to
encourage the RTE users to migrate to a Unix API so HP could get them
to make a smooth transition to HP-UX. These things would be from the
early-mid-1980s I think.
Some people at HP are considering a recomendation for
a license to
software that is older than some age, and/or products that were at
end-of-life more than some number of years ago. (The desire seems to
be to exclude newer software such as HP3000 MPE from the license. The
license would include software such as HP2000 Access. Inclusion of
software such as HP1000 RTE is to-be-determined)
How about a license for software for something really obscure
from the late 1970s, the HP 300 "Amigo"?
Would HP consider such a license for MPE for some or all of the
"classic" 16-bit HP3000 architectures that were contemporary with
the HP2000's product life? How about for add-on products to
which HP has the right to license and distribute without requiring
any royalty payments?
A cutoff of release dates before 01 Jan 1986 could be very
interesting. That could permit the use of MPE IV and MPE V/R (2548),
and I think it may be in or close to the age range under consideration
as well as before the PA-RISC announcement.
HP may also remember that in late 1999 they made a Y2K-safe release of
MPE V/E (really two releases and a patch set) available to classic
3000 users without charge and without requiring an existing or even
previous software support agreement. It included a full Platform 3P
SUBSYS tape too, meaning it had all the add-on products that HP had
for the things. If HP could see their way to doing that with media
then, why not license paperwork now?
I for one will be very disappointed if HP continues to offer OpenVMS
hobbyist licenses while not offering licenses for classic-3000 MPE.
-Frank McConnell
3:28 p.m.
Mike Gemeny wrote:
Some people at Hewlett Packard are willing to explore
an updated "Non-Commercial
Technology Enthusiast Software License" for older software products.
As a part of this process your input is encouraged. (By posting to the list HP would
be able to read your comments directly from the list archive, should they choose.)
Information on existing licenses is encouraged. (Existing DEC licenses, etc.)
This license is intended to add to existing Licenses and not to replace them.
Although, your input in this regard is also encouraged. (If you have problems
this would be a good time to get them out on the table.)
Just as HP is willing to look at this issue from our prospective, we would ask that
you also try to look at this issue from HP's prospective. (Don't just ask for the
moon.)
We would also like to ask if anyone knows the date of release of the last version of
HP1000 RTE and also if anyone may know the date of the End-Of-Life of the HP1000
product line. (Yes it would seem that HP was threatening to end-of-life the HP1000
as early as the late 70's or early 80's but we're looking for the final
end-of-life date.)
Some people at HP are considering a recomendation for a license to software that is
older
than some age, and/or products that were at end-of-life more than some number of years
ago.
(The desire seems to be to exclude newer software such as HP3000 MPE from the license.
The license
would include software such as HP2000 Access. Inclusion of software such as HP1000 RTE
is to-be-determined)
Thanks in advance for all of the thoughtful input that this thread is sure to attract.
Mike Gemeny
Jerome Fine replies:
As far as I can understand, for the PDP-11 software,
the Mentec hobby license allows certain old versions
(e.g. V05.03 of RT-11) to be used under an emulator
from DEC. In practice, this has been extended to mean
that SIMH is allowed as well.
However, it is possible, even likely, that Mentec still sells
sufficient RSX-11 licenses and software to commercial
users to still make a small profit. So perhaps HP may
not wish to include the latest versions of RSX-11 software.
As for RT-11, even the last version, V05.07, is now
almost 6 years old and the second last version, V05.06,
will be 12 years old next month. While I would certainly
suggest that 12 years is more than sufficient (especially
considering that V05.06 is not Y2K compliant), perhaps
6 years old is also long enough. As a compromise, perhaps
10 years old could be the dividing line. Also, there are
still many bugs in RT-11 with a few able to crash RT-11
when they occur - see 2nd last paragraph. On the other
hand, since current versions of VMS are available to
hobby users, I can't understand why there might be a
problem with the October 1998 V05.07 release of RT-11.
As for support, media and DOCs, OBVIOUSLY there
would be NONE! However, at least for RT-11, that
would likely NOT be a problem. As far as I can understand,
just let the hobby (NON-COMMERCIAL) users manage
by themselves. Just change the wording of the Mentec
hobby license to allow V05.07 and remove the restriction
on what hardware or emulator is used. Also, by this time,
include the source code distributions so that the hobby users
can support themselves in a reasonable manner.
These are my first thoughts and are probably insufficient.
Some might be too extensive, however, unless Mentec
is still making a profit on RT-11 and RSTS/E, I can't
see that opening up hobby to to be unlimited would be
a problem since I doubt that even reputable commercial users
outside of the US and Europe are paying Mentec anything
in any case. And reputable commercial users in the US
and Europe will likely continue to pay Mentec regardless,
although I really doubt that there are any left anywhere at
this point for additional sites for RT-11 and RSTS/E.
BUT, with hobby users having access to these operating
systems, it might be possible that Mentec might make some
additional sales due to having support from hobby users,
especially to get those bugs in RT-11 fixed as well as to
add enhancements to RT-11 if specific needs arise.
Just a few thoughts. Can anyone else also comment?
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
--
If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail
address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk
e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be
obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the
'at' with the four digits of the current year.
3:57 p.m.
New subject: The world is going to pieces...
AARGH... Just looked on e-bay. There are a large number of pdp-8 items
listed by a single vendor. Looks like 1 or more /m systems has been
disassembled. Feel like I am watching humpty-dumpty, will the pieces ever
get back together again......
Perchance we could all start a mass e-mail campaign against the seller......
4:43 p.m.
New subject: The world is going to pieces...
On Thu, Jul 08, 2004 at 11:57:33PM -0400, David V. Corbin wrote:
AARGH... Just looked on e-bay. There are a large
number of pdp-8 items
listed by a single vendor. Looks like 1 or more /m systems has been
disassembled. Feel like I am watching humpty-dumpty, will the pieces ever
get back together again......
Yoiks! I guess if I _really_ needed one part, that's an easy way to get
one, but it's still pretty horrifying.
Perchance we could all start a mass e-mail campaign
against the seller......
What I'm curious about is who is 'di-sales'? They seem to have bid up
everything. They also ran up the price on a GIGI terminal I was bidding
on (it was at $5 when I found it). I let things go (the auction is about
to end) because I don't need one quite as badly as other people seem to
want it. All I really wanted it for was to run some of the GIGI-aware
apps from my TOPS-20 "box".
-ethan
--
Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 09-Jul-2004 04:20 Z
South Pole Station
PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -82.7 F (-63.7 C) Windchill -113.7 F (-81 C)
APO AP 96598 Wind 6.4 kts Grid 051 Barometer 666.3 mb (11147. ft)
Ethan.Dicks(a)amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html
6:08 p.m.
New subject: The world is going to pieces...
On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, David V. Corbin wrote:
AARGH... Just looked on e-bay. There are a large
number of pdp-8 items
listed by a single vendor. Looks like 1 or more /m systems has been
disassembled. Feel like I am watching humpty-dumpty, will the pieces
ever get back together again......
Perchance we could all start a mass e-mail campaign against the
seller......
I did a reassembly of a vintage console radio after buying all the parts
off ebay and then the cabinet directly from the (local) seller... The
seller genuinely had no idea of what the thing was worth (and I may have
actually paid too much for it anyway). I still haven't had the time to
restore the electronics of that radio, but it is now mostly reassembled :)
I hesitate in telling the actual story of why it was sold as parts, as it
might horrify some folks.
-Toth
10 Jul
10 Jul
9:13 a.m.
On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Mike Gemeny wrote:
Some people at Hewlett Packard are willing to explore
an updated "Non-Commercial
Technology Enthusiast Software License" for older software products.
As a part of this process your input is encouraged. (By posting to the list HP would
be able to read your comments directly from the list archive, should they choose.)
I'd love to see all the various tools and support for the HP64000 systems
made available.
11 Jul
11 Jul
7:36 a.m.
On 8 Jul 2004 at 20:47, Mike Gemeny wrote:
We would also like to ask if anyone knows the date of
release of the
last version of HP1000 RTE and also if anyone may know the date of the
End-Of-Life of the HP1000 product line.
I have appended a "Software Products History" file that I downloaded from
HP's site abort six years ago. It's dated January 1997.
Some people at HP are considering a recomendation for
a license to
software that is older than some age, and/or products that were at
end-of-life more than some number of years ago.
As the following shows, RTE-III is the oldest version listed. I presume
that everything before that (RTE-B, RTE-II, etc.) had fallen off of the
list some time prior.
Given that HP has made RTE-6/VM freely available via Interex, I cannot
think of an objection to making earlier RTEs available. Personally, I
would like to see:
* RTE-II for those with HP 2100s or 21MXes without DMS or large memories.
* RTE-IVB for those with M-series 21MXes or those with E-/F-series without
the VMA/OS firmware.
* RTE-6/VM for those with E-/F-series with VMA firmware.
RTE-III and RTE-IV(A) are interesting historical footnotes but don't offer
anything over RTE-IVB, as far as I know. Also, adding the IMAGE, BASIC,
FORTRAN, Ada (!), and Pascal products would greatly add to the utility and
interest of the systems.
RTE-IVB and RTE-6/VM both require operational RTE systems ("grandfathers")
in order to generate and install systems, so providing just the system
binary files as the Interex contribution does will not allow one to install
the system on a "virgin" machine. To be useful, such contributions would
also have to include grandfather system images to allow off-line
restoration.
Given that RTEs -II through -6/VM will not run on A-series hardware (and,
conversely, RTE-A will not run on M/E/F-series systems), the fact that the
A-series systems are still within support life shouldn't have any effect on
the release of earlier software, I should think.
-- Dave
----- Begin included file -----
SOFTWARE PRODUCT HISTORY
PRODUCT DESCRIPTION CPU/OS EOSL*
------- ----------------------------- ------------- -----
12790A Multipoint F/W - 9/99
12824A VIS IVB 12/99
12829A VIS MEF/6 12/99
13306A FFP F/W E 11/89
13306B FFP/DMI Group - 9/99
13307A DMI F/W E-Series E 6/94
13307B DMI F/W E-Series E 9/99
24396A Paper Tape EF 6/89
24396B 2.5 MByte Disk Cartridge EF 6/89
24396C 10 MByte Disk Cartridge EF 11/92
24396D 7970B Mag Tape 800 EF 11/92
24396E 7970E Mag Tape 1600 EF 9/99
24396F 264x Minicartridge EF 11/92
24396H CS-80 CTD EF 9/99
24397A L-Series Diags. L 4/90
24398A Peripheral Diagnostics L 4/90
24398B Peripheral Diagnostics A 1/93 (put into 24612B)
24600A Diag. Pack. - Intell. Comm. I/F L 10/86
24601A Measurement & Control Diags L 11/84
24612A Offline Diagnostics L,A 1/93 (put into 24612B)
24612B Offline Diagnostics A active
91745A DATASAFE/1000 6/VM 01/91
91747A DATASHARE/1000 6/VM 01/91
91750A DS/1000-IV A,6/VM active
91751A X.25/1000 A,6/VM active
91790A NS-ARPA/1000 A active
91781A RJE/1000-II Remote Job Entry A,6/VM 02/2001
91782A MRJE/1000 A,MEF 10/95
91784A PMF/1000 A,MEF 10/95
92049B A990 Microprogramming Package A990 6/98
92050A Datapair/1000 A active
92060A RTE-III M/2,3,4,4B 11/83
92060B RTE-III Soft Pack - 11/83
92061A RTE Microprogramming for MEF MEF/2,3,4,4B 8/2000
92062A RTE Data Process MEF 10/84
92063A Image/1000 MEF/2,3,4,4B 8/85
92066A Measurement and Control MEF/M,2,3,4,4B 10/89
92067A RTE-IV MEF 3/86
92068A RTE-IVB EF 1/92
92068E RTE-IVE Mem-Based MEF 9/99
92069A IMAGE/1000 A,6,4B,L,XL active
92070A RTE-L L 7/86
92070B RTE-L (execute only) L 5/89
92071A RTE-XL L 4/90
92072A OEM Starter Kit - 4/90
92073A IMAGE/1000-L w/out Query L/L,XL 4/82
92076A BASIC/1000-L L,A/XL,A 4/90
92077A RTE-A A active
92078A VC+ A active
92080A Datacap/1000-II EF,A/4B,6,A 7/89
92081A IMAGE/1000-II EF,A/6,A active
92082A ACCEL/1000 1/86
92083A Profile Monitor EF,A/A,6,4,IVB 2/2001
92084A RTE-6/VM EF 9/99
92086A RTE-6/VM Upgrade Kit (from IVB) EF 9/99
92091A HPSPICE Circuit Simulation Prog MEF/6 3/90
92101A BASIC/1000D MEF active
92120A PMC/1000 (Process Monit & Cntrl)MEF 7/89 (superseded by
92121A PMC/1000 A 1/93 92121A)
92122A GIS/1000 (Graphics Intf. S/W) A 3/93
92125A ADA/1000 A 2/99
92130A QDM/1000 (Quality Decision Mgmt)MEF 7/89 (upgrade to A-Ser)
92131A QDM/1000 A 10/96
92140A PCL/1000-AB MEF 7/89
92400A DAS Utility Library MEF/M,2,3,IV,IVB 10/89
92561A PORT/RX A 6/2001
92571A HP C/1000 A active
92826A S/W Man. Pack. MEF 11/84
92826B RTE-IV Manual Pack MEF 11/92
92827A RTE-M Manual Pack M 12/84
92832A PASCAL/1000-IVB (exec. only L) MEF,L 1/92
92833A PASCAL/1000 MEF/A,6 active
92834A FORTRAN-4X Compiler MEF/A,L,XL,4B,6 1/92
92835A SIGNAL/1000 (Fast Fourier) F/6,IVB 1/92
92836A FORTRAN-77 Compiler A or 6 MEF/A active
92840A Graphics Plotting Software MEF/M,4,IVB 9/89
92841A Graphics/1000-II DGL V.1.0 A,4B,L,XL 1/92
92842A Graphics/1000-II AGP V.1.0 A,4B,L,XL 1/92
92843X Graphics/1000-II Device Hndlers MEF/A 1/92
92851A HW History Library MEF 9/99
92852E RTE-IV Upgrade Kit MEF 11/85
92853A Hardware History Library L-Ser. L 4/90
92854A PASCAL/1000-XL (exec. only L) L/A 4/90
92857A BASIC/1000C MEF/A,6 2/2001
92860A Symbolic Debug EF,A/A,6 active
92861A Graphics/1000-II DGL V.2.0 MEF,A/A,6 active
92862A Graphics/1000-II AGP V.2.0 MEF,A/A,6 active
92903A Datacap/1000 S/W Data Capture MEF/IV 2/86
94200A PCIF/1000 A 7/90 (replace w/94200B)
94200B PCIF/1000 A active
94201A PCIF UDI - 7/84
94202A PCIF Allen-Bradley Handler A active
94203A PCIF Gould-Modicon Handler A active
94204A PCIF Siemens Handler A active
94205A PCIF Telemecanique Handler A 9/96
94206A PCIF General Electric Handler A 9/96
94207A TI Handler A 9/96
94250A FORMS/1000-A EF/6 active
94250B FORMS/1000-B A active
98170A ARPA Services/1000 A active
B2690A SoftBench Link/1000 HP-UX active
B2692A SoftBench Link/1000 HP-UX/700 active
B2693A SoftBench Link/1000 HP-UX/800 active
B2695A GFoX HP-UX active
B2697A GFoX HP-UX/700 active
B2698A GFoX HP-UX/800 active
* EOSL = End of Support Life
Last updated: Fri Jan 24 13:36:47 1997
----- End included file -----
7471
days inactive
7474
days old
9 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
aw288＠osfn.org -
dickset＠amanda.spole.gov -
dvcorbin＠optonline.net -
fmc＠reanimators.org -
jdbryan＠acm.org -
jhfinexgs2＠compsys.to -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
MGemeny＠pgcps.org -
shirsch＠adelphia.net -
tothwolf＠concentric.net