11 Oct
2020
11 Oct
'20
4:54 p.m.
11 Oct
11 Oct
5:52 p.m.
On 10/11/2020 4:54 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
Ethan Dicks could use the metal and cabinets for his 11/70 collection.?
I wish I could go get it and transport it, but that's a bit of a long
shot for me.
That all is in sad shape.?? But he has all of an 11/70 including the
backplane, and fires can't do that much to steel but mess up the heat
treatment state.
thanks
Jim
6:22 p.m.
I suspect much of the electronics is fine. It would be good for someone wanting backup
cards. The front panel is really sad.
I wonder where Dale found them?
Dwight
________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of jim stephens via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 5:52 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: FIRE SALE!
On 10/11/2020 4:54 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
Ethan Dicks could use the metal and cabinets for his 11/70 collection.
I wish I could go get it and transport it, but that's a bit of a long
shot for me.
That all is in sad shape. But he has all of an 11/70 including the
backplane, and fires can't do that much to steel but mess up the heat
treatment state.
thanks
Jim
6:49 p.m.
On 10/11/2020 6:34 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
I agree.? Especially the ones heated high enough for the melted plastic
or scorch damage.? A radiative and convective heat soak is pretty damaging.
Consider the flow temperature of the materials inside.? Unless the fire
was? flash fire, the entire thing would have been heated for some amount
of time (15 minutes minimum usually, to 45 minutes) due to response time
of the equipment.
Not evident in the photos would be possible contamination from either
fire suppressant materials or water to extinguish the blaze.
Like I said, Ethan is looking for a cabinet for an 11/70 stripped out of
such, and these probably are okay for that.? Maybe some of the other
bits after inspectiong, but I'd not trust the boards up front.? It would
be a project I'd want a solid shop of parts to do testing for every
board involved to certify they work.
Most people I know have one system in their basement, lab or garage, and
I'd personally not want to put boards from a source like this into such,
unless i had nothing to lose.
thanks
Jim
I suspect much
of the electronics is fine. It would be good for someone wanting backup cards.
You
must be joking. Those cards are done. Any chip that is still
operational will likely fail upon or shortly after power is applied.
--
Will
7:05 p.m.
Most components can stand soldering temperatures. It is clear that it was only hot enough
to melt plastics. That isn't even hot enough to damage boards. It is wasn't
powered at the same time, it is unlikely to have been harmed. I've seen cases where
there were flames in the board area and parts were not damaged. These were mostly wrapped
in their cases. Melted plastics most likely protected the boards from dangerous
temperatures.
Dwight
________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of jim stephens via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 6:49 PM
To: William Donzelli via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: FIRE SALE!
On 10/11/2020 6:34 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
I agree. Especially the ones heated high enough for the melted plastic
or scorch damage. A radiative and convective heat soak is pretty damaging.
Consider the flow temperature of the materials inside. Unless the fire
was flash fire, the entire thing would have been heated for some amount
of time (15 minutes minimum usually, to 45 minutes) due to response time
of the equipment.
Not evident in the photos would be possible contamination from either
fire suppressant materials or water to extinguish the blaze.
Like I said, Ethan is looking for a cabinet for an 11/70 stripped out of
such, and these probably are okay for that. Maybe some of the other
bits after inspectiong, but I'd not trust the boards up front. It would
be a project I'd want a solid shop of parts to do testing for every
board involved to certify they work.
Most people I know have one system in their basement, lab or garage, and
I'd personally not want to put boards from a source like this into such,
unless i had nothing to lose.
thanks
Jim
I suspect much
of the electronics is fine. It would be good for someone wanting backup cards.
You
must be joking. Those cards are done. Any chip that is still
operational will likely fail upon or shortly after power is applied.
--
Will
7:21 p.m.
How long do you think those poor machines cooked? I bet far, far
longer than the soldering temperature spec. likes.
--
Will
On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 10:06 PM dwight via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Most components can stand soldering temperatures. It is clear that it was only hot enough
to melt plastics. That isn't even hot enough to damage boards. It is wasn't
powered at the same time, it is unlikely to have been harmed. I've seen cases where
there were flames in the board area and parts were not damaged. These were mostly wrapped
in their cases. Melted plastics most likely protected the boards from dangerous
temperatures.
Dwight
________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of jim stephens via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 6:49 PM
To: William Donzelli via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: FIRE SALE!
On 10/11/2020 6:34 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
I agree. Especially the ones heated high enough for the melted plastic
or scorch damage. A radiative and convective heat soak is pretty damaging.
Consider the flow temperature of the materials inside. Unless the fire
was flash fire, the entire thing would have been heated for some amount
of time (15 minutes minimum usually, to 45 minutes) due to response time
of the equipment.
Not evident in the photos would be possible contamination from either
fire suppressant materials or water to extinguish the blaze.
Like I said, Ethan is looking for a cabinet for an 11/70 stripped out of
such, and these probably are okay for that. Maybe some of the other
bits after inspectiong, but I'd not trust the boards up front. It would
be a project I'd want a solid shop of parts to do testing for every
board involved to certify they work.
Most people I know have one system in their basement, lab or garage, and
I'd personally not want to put boards from a source like this into such,
unless i had nothing to lose.
thanks
Jim
I suspect
much of the electronics is fine. It would be good for someone wanting backup cards.
You must be joking. Those cards are done. Any chip that is still
operational will likely fail upon or shortly after power is applied.
--
Will
8:13 p.m.
I agree.? Most devices are expected to be heated briefly to soldering
temperatures, not heat soaked at that.
Temperature in this case is much different than heat.? The designers of
the devices must take into account what temperature is require to do the
solder assembly function, and minimize the amount of heat the device is
exposed to.
On wave soldering machines the heat was quite low, and these would have
been assembled then.? Even with current radiant oven techniques, the
parts would fall off if there was an extended heat exposure.? They do
that often enough now with heating problems with devices, with open
circuit failures happening.
If you're lucky and have a quick fire department response, the setup
time on the equipment is at least 4 or 5 minutes.? Unless there's
physical danger and the building involved may have people trapped, they
take time to assess the fire, the propagation and there's more time
before they attack.
I've seen a couple of events and a couple of full exercises, it doesn't
happen quickly.? Fire departments are sadly known for letting buildings
burn into the basement if it saves life or property of other nearby
structures.? You'd be lucky to get this out of a burned out building in
most cases.? Once the fire is knocked down the heat will be present for
quite some time afterwards, as they let it cool and clear flash fires,
and take care of nearby property.
thanks
jim
On 10/11/2020 7:21 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
How long do you think those poor machines cooked? I
bet far, far
longer than the soldering temperature spec. likes.
--
Will
On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 10:06 PM dwight via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Most components can stand soldering temperatures. It is clear that it was only hot
enough to melt plastics. That isn't even hot enough to damage boards. It is wasn't
powered at the same time, it is unlikely to have been harmed. I've seen cases where
there were flames in the board area and parts were not damaged. These were mostly wrapped
in their cases. Melted plastics most likely protected the boards from dangerous
temperatures.
> Dwight
>
> ________________________________
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of jim stephens via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 6:49 PM
> To: William Donzelli via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: FIRE SALE!
>
>
>
> On 10/11/2020 6:34 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
>>> I suspect much of the electronics is fine. It would be good for someone
wanting backup cards.
>> You must be joking. Those cards are done. Any chip that is still
>> operational will likely fail upon or shortly after power is applied.
>>
>> --
>> Will
>>
> I agree. Especially the ones heated high enough for the melted plastic
> or scorch damage. A radiative and convective heat soak is pretty damaging.
>
> Consider the flow temperature of the materials inside. Unless the fire
> was flash fire, the entire thing would have been heated for some amount
> of time (15 minutes minimum usually, to 45 minutes) due to response time
> of the equipment.
>
> Not evident in the photos would be possible contamination from either
> fire suppressant materials or water to extinguish the blaze.
>
> Like I said, Ethan is looking for a cabinet for an 11/70 stripped out of
> such, and these probably are okay for that. Maybe some of the other
> bits after inspectiong, but I'd not trust the boards up front. It would
> be a project I'd want a solid shop of parts to do testing for every
> board involved to certify they work.
>
> Most people I know have one system in their basement, lab or garage, and
> I'd personally not want to put boards from a source like this into such,
> unless i had nothing to lose.
>
> thanks
> Jim
15 Oct
15 Oct
1:41 p.m.
On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 8:13 PM jim stephens via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I agree. Most devices are expected to be heated briefly to soldering
temperatures, not heat soaked at that.
Temperature in this case is much different than heat. The designers of
the devices must take into account what temperature is require to do the
solder assembly function, and minimize the amount of heat the device is
exposed to.
On wave soldering machines the heat was quite low, and these would have
been assembled then. Even with current radiant oven techniques, the
parts would fall off if there was an extended heat exposure. They do
that often enough now with heating problems with devices, with open
circuit failures happening.
If you're lucky and have a quick fire department response, the setup
time on the equipment is at least 4 or 5 minutes. Unless there's
physical danger and the building involved may have people trapped, they
take time to assess the fire, the propagation and there's more time
before they attack.
I've seen a couple of events and a couple of full exercises, it doesn't
happen quickly. Fire departments are sadly known for letting buildings
burn into the basement if it saves life or property of other nearby
structures. You'd be lucky to get this out of a burned out building in
most cases. Once the fire is knocked down the heat will be present for
quite some time afterwards, as they let it cool and clear flash fires,
and take care of nearby property.
thanks
jim
Well, we'll see how bad these things really are. The idiot I am, I struck
what I consider to be a reasonable deal for the 11/70 and 11/45 and I'll be
picking them up in November on a trip to SF I already had planned. What
can I say, I'm a glutton for punishment.
A friend of mine went out and ot a number of decent high-res pictures of
the units. The backplanes/wirewrap don't appear to be physically damaged,
and the boards inside look pretty decent, though I'm not holding my
breath. (I was particularly surprised that none of the pot-metal card
stiffeners were warped or bent due to the heat, even near the front on the
11/45 where it's clear most of the heat was present.) I do have a friend
with a spare set of 11/70 boards. What sold me though was that the 11/70
has a PEP70 + Hypercache board set installed (which would be really cool,
assuming anything in there can be made to work again).
I figure worst case, I get a couple of DEC racks that'll work fine after
some sanding and repainting, and maybe I can send the chassis off to Ethan
if repair turns out to be impossible.
- Josh
1:45 p.m.
On 10/15/20 3:41 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:
On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 8:13 PM jim stephens via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Awesome news that someone is going to try to salvage the machines!
Best of luck!
--tom
I agree. Most devices are expected to be heated
briefly to soldering
temperatures, not heat soaked at that.
Temperature in this case is much different than heat. The designers of
the devices must take into account what temperature is require to do the
solder assembly function, and minimize the amount of heat the device is
exposed to.
On wave soldering machines the heat was quite low, and these would have
been assembled then. Even with current radiant oven techniques, the
parts would fall off if there was an extended heat exposure. They do
that often enough now with heating problems with devices, with open
circuit failures happening.
If you're lucky and have a quick fire department response, the setup
time on the equipment is at least 4 or 5 minutes. Unless there's
physical danger and the building involved may have people trapped, they
take time to assess the fire, the propagation and there's more time
before they attack.
I've seen a couple of events and a couple of full exercises, it doesn't
happen quickly. Fire departments are sadly known for letting buildings
burn into the basement if it saves life or property of other nearby
structures. You'd be lucky to get this out of a burned out building in
most cases. Once the fire is knocked down the heat will be present for
quite some time afterwards, as they let it cool and clear flash fires,
and take care of nearby property.
thanks
jim
Well, we'll see how bad these things really are. The idiot I am, I struck
what I consider to be a reasonable deal for the 11/70 and 11/45 and I'll be
picking them up in November on a trip to SF I already had planned. What
can I say, I'm a glutton for punishment.
A friend of mine went out and ot a number of decent high-res pictures of
the units. The backplanes/wirewrap don't appear to be physically damaged,
and the boards inside look pretty decent, though I'm not holding my
breath. (I was particularly surprised that none of the pot-metal card
stiffeners were warped or bent due to the heat, even near the front on the
11/45 where it's clear most of the heat was present.) I do have a friend
with a spare set of 11/70 boards. What sold me though was that the 11/70
has a PEP70 + Hypercache board set installed (which would be really cool,
assuming anything in there can be made to work again).
I figure worst case, I get a couple of DEC racks that'll work fine after
some sanding and repainting, and maybe I can send the chassis off to Ethan
if repair turns out to be impossible.
- Josh 
6:01 p.m.
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 4:41 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
...I struck
what I consider to be a reasonable deal for the 11/70 and 11/45 and I'll be
picking them up in November on a trip to SF I already had planned.
That's handy.
What sold me though was that the 11/70
has a PEP70 + Hypercache board set installed
That's a board set that I've always wanted for mine, but they aren't
exactly sitting on every shelf.
I just have the massive boxes full of amps and amps of 4116 DRAMs.
I figure worst case, I get a couple of DEC racks
that'll work fine after
some sanding and repainting, and maybe I can send the chassis off to Ethan
if repair turns out to be impossible.
:-)
Cheers,
-ethan
16 Oct
16 Oct
4:15 a.m.
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 01:41:11PM -0700, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:
with a spare set of 11/70 boards. What sold me though
was that the 11/70
has a PEP70 + Hypercache board set installed (which would be really cool,
assuming anything in there can be made to work again).
Lucky bastard :) I hope those boards i salvagable. The PDP-11/70 that we
run at update (http://magica.update.uu.se/) has seen it's fair share of
trouble. Most often the PSU fails but after that it is memory and cache
that has been causing the most issues.
Regards,
Pontus.
11 Oct
11 Oct
9:18 p.m.
On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 8:52 PM jim stephens <jwsmail at jwsss.com> wrote:
On 10/11/2020 4:54 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
Ethan Dicks could use the metal and cabinets for his 11/70 collection.
I wish I could go get it and transport it, but that's a bit of a long
shot for me.
I've been casually looking for a BA11-F since, as Jim mentioned, I
have the backplane, cards, front panel, bezel, and PSU for an 11/70.
I am missing only the actual box and the FP plexi (I have an idea for
an easy laser-etched clear-plexi)
But I'm probably not able to coordinate heavy transport from CA.
-ethan
12 Oct
12 Oct
2:47 a.m.
------ Original Message ------
From: "Al Kossow via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, 12 Oct, 2020 At 00:54
Subject: FIRE SALE!
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?77118-Fire-sale-PDP-11-stuff
<http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?77118-Fire-sale-PDP-11-stuff>
Seems my account isn't activated (still), could these pics be posted
somewhere there isn't a login-wall?
1528
days inactive
1533
days old
14 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
derschjo＠gmail.com -
dkelvey＠hotmail.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
jwsmail＠jwsss.com -
pontus＠Update.UU.SE -
rice43＠btinternet.com -
tom＠figureeightbrewing.com -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com