10 Sep
2009
10 Sep
'09
2:23 p.m.
Dave,
Do you have any Intel ISIS-II OS diskettes available? I have a Series II
MDS-225.
Richard Brewster Main, Esq.
Patent Attorney
9832 Lois Stiltner Ct.
Elk Grove, CA 95624
mainpatents at gmail.com
http://mainpatents.com/
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FAX: 650-641-3126
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12 Sep
12 Sep
6:03 p.m.
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009, Richard Main wrote:
Do you have any Intel ISIS-II OS diskettes available?
I have a Series II
MDS-225.
I'm trying to help Richard out with copies of my ISIS-II diskettes. The
SD diskettes read just fine using imagedisk, but the DD ones use M2FM
(aka MMFM) encoding and are not recognized.
In researching this on the net, I'm seeing conflicting claims as to
whether the Catweasel controller will make sense of this format. Does
anyone know from personal experience that it will? If so, what software
tools were required?
TIA,
Steve
--
13 Sep
13 Sep
9:23 a.m.
From: snhirsch at gmail.com
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009, Richard Main wrote:
Hi Steve
Catwheasel should be able to read the bits. I have the spec
on the different special marks some place. I'm not sure
how it would be written back though. It can't be created
with any of todays controllers.
I'll keep an eye out for the clock/data spec but it may take
me some time to find it.
Dwight
_________________________________________________________________
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Do you have any Intel ISIS-II OS diskettes
available? I have a Series II
MDS-225.
I'm trying to help Richard out with copies of my ISIS-II diskettes. The
SD diskettes read just fine using imagedisk, but the DD ones use M2FM
(aka MMFM) encoding and are not recognized.
In researching this on the net, I'm seeing conflicting claims as to
whether the Catweasel controller will make sense of this format. Does
anyone know from personal experience that it will? If so, what software
tools were required?
TIA,
Steve
9:33 a.m.
dwight elvey wrote:
Catwheasel should be able to read the bits. I have
the spec
on the different special marks some place. I'm not sure
how it would be written back though. It can't be created
with any of todays controllers.
I'd be interested in a copy of the disc format spec too -- if no current
disc writer can write them, it seems like something that might be useful
to add to my analyser/reader/writer.
--
Phil.
philpem at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
8:15 p.m.
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 8:33 AM, Philip Pemberton <philpem at philpem.me.uk> wrote:
dwight elvey wrote:
I have a catweasel board. I'd be happy to try out any software you
can find. I think there's source code out there for linux that can
write images through the catweasel, but I haven't had time to play
with it yet. The windows software that comes with the board is
rudimentary and only supports a few 8-bit formats. I've talked with
Jens, the guy who designed the board. He's handed software work off
to someone else and development appears to have stopped. He's also
wrapped up in other projects and doesn't seem to interested.
brian
?Catwheasel should be able to read the bits. I have the spec
on the different special marks some place. I'm not sure
how it would be written back though. It can't be created
with any of todays controllers.
I'd be interested in a copy of the disc format spec too -- if no current
disc writer can write them, it seems like something that might be useful to
add to my analyser/reader/writer.
14 Sep
14 Sep
6:09 p.m.
On Sun, 13 Sep 2009, Brian Lanning wrote:
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 8:33 AM, Philip Pemberton
<philpem at philpem.me.uk> wrote:
I have a catweasel MKIV+ here. The issue is software support.
It's clear that no one is flying the plane with regard to official
Catweasel support and the state of the documentation (such as it is)
reflects that.
Based on replies I've received on the list and privately, it appears that
Linux intrinsics exist to read the raw flux patterns. These would have to
be decoded afterwards, however. Writing from an image is another issue
and I don't yet understand what's involved there.
I've read, re-read and re-re-read the catweasel docs and still do not have
a clear picture of what the card really does and how one uses it. If
anyone can summarize it at a 10,000ft. level this would be greatly
appreciated!
Steve
--
dwight elvey wrote:
I have a catweasel board. I'd be happy to try out any software you
can find. I think there's source code out there for linux that can
write images through the catweasel, but I haven't had time to play
with it yet. The windows software that comes with the board is
rudimentary and only supports a few 8-bit formats. I've talked with
Jens, the guy who designed the board. He's handed software work off
to someone else and development appears to have stopped. He's also
wrapped up in other projects and doesn't seem to interested.
?Catwheasel should be able to read the bits. I have the spec
on the different special marks some place. I'm not sure
how it would be written back though. It can't be created
with any of todays controllers.
I'd be interested in a copy of the disc format spec too -- if no current
disc writer can write them, it seems like something that might be useful to
add to my analyser/reader/writer. 
16 Sep
16 Sep
2:48 a.m.
On 14 Sep 2009 at 18:09, Steven Hirsch wrote:
I've read, re-read and re-re-read the catweasel
docs and still do not
have a clear picture of what the card really does and how one uses it.
If anyone can summarize it at a 10,000ft. level this would be greatly
appreciated!
It's *very* simple. The board has some SRAM (I don't know about the
IV, but earlier models have about 128KB) some counters and a little
bit of glue.
Note that a drive produces a pulse during reading when the polarity
of the magnetization of the media changes. So, when you write a
floppy, you feed the drive with a waveform that's either high or low
and on read, the drive produces a pulse when the writing waveform
switched states.
The CW can begin sampling at an index pulse or any arbitrary place--
similarly it can stop at an index pulse or any arbitrary place.
Basically, when operating while reading, the CW records the time
(from the last pulse) that a pulse arrives from the floppy drive.
This time is in the range of 1-127 clock times, with the clock
selectable from a short list of preset value and is stored, one value
after another in the SRAM.
When writing, the process is reversed.
Everything regarding interpretation of the pulse-time data produced
by the CW is done in software. Same goes for writing. Compared to
the CW, a PC floppy controller has monumental intelligence.
Before the CW IV, even signals to step the head from cylinder to
cylinder were generated by software.
--Chuck
10:21 a.m.
----------------------------------------
From: cclist at sydex.com
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:48:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Intellec MDS questions
On 14 Sep 2009 at 18:09, Steven Hirsch wrote:
Hi
I don't think one can just take the same timing that was read
and write the bits back. Normally the controller adds some preemphasis
and deemphasis to make the timing right for the reads. For the
M2FM, this would require a little experimenting.
I do think the CW could do the job though.
What sample frequencies does it have?
Dwight
_________________________________________________________________
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I've read, re-read and re-re-read the
catweasel docs and still do not
have a clear picture of what the card really does and how one uses it.
If anyone can summarize it at a 10,000ft. level this would be greatly
appreciated!
It's *very* simple. The board has some SRAM (I don't know about the
IV, but earlier models have about 128KB) some counters and a little
bit of glue.
Note that a drive produces a pulse during reading when the polarity
of the magnetization of the media changes. So, when you write a
floppy, you feed the drive with a waveform that's either high or low
and on read, the drive produces a pulse when the writing waveform
switched states.
The CW can begin sampling at an index pulse or any arbitrary place--
similarly it can stop at an index pulse or any arbitrary place.
Basically, when operating while reading, the CW records the time
(from the last pulse) that a pulse arrives from the floppy drive.
This time is in the range of 1-127 clock times, with the clock
selectable from a short list of preset value and is stored, one value
after another in the SRAM.
When writing, the process is reversed.
Everything regarding interpretation of the pulse-time data produced
by the CW is done in software. Same goes for writing. Compared to
the CW, a PC floppy controller has monumental intelligence.
Before the CW IV, even signals to step the head from cylinder to
cylinder were generated by software.
--Chuck
12:25 p.m.
On 16 Sep 2009 at 7:21, dwight elvey wrote:
I don't think one can just take the same timing
that was read
and write the bits back. Normally the controller adds some preemphasis
and deemphasis to make the timing right for the reads. For the M2FM,
this would require a little experimenting.
I do think the CW could do the job though.
What sample frequencies does it have?
The raw frequencies are selectable from 14,161, 28.322 and 56.644
MHz, but I believe that these are divided by 16 for the actual sample
rate. Almost all of my work involves reading, not writing (the
original equipment is usually long gone). The only time I can recall
having to use the CW for duplication was to duplicate some RX02
floppies with DECs interesting implementation of MFM.
I'd first recommend trying out Tim Mann's CW2DMK and DMK2CW utilities
on one of the MDS floppies? It might just work...
Cheers,
Chuck
3:57 p.m.
On Wed, 16 Sep 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 16 Sep 2009 at 7:21, dwight elvey wrote:
I think you can adjust the pre-scaler on the Mark IV version, unless I'm
misreading the hardware docs.
Steve
--
I don't think one can just take the same
timing that was read
and write the bits back. Normally the controller adds some preemphasis
and deemphasis to make the timing right for the reads. For the M2FM,
this would require a little experimenting.
I do think the CW could do the job though.
What sample frequencies does it have?
The raw frequencies are selectable from 14,161, 28.322 and 56.644
MHz, but I believe that these are divided by 16 for the actual sample
rate. 
13 Sep
13 Sep
9:35 a.m.
(Re-sending -- this time, with the *correct* From: address)
dwight elvey wrote:
Catwheasel should be able to read the bits. I have
the spec
on the different special marks some place. I'm not sure
how it would be written back though. It can't be created
with any of todays controllers.
I'd be interested in a copy of the disc format spec too -- if no current
disc writer can write them, it seems like something that might be useful
to add to my analyser/reader/writer.
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
12:56 p.m.
M2FM recording is pretty easy--the rules are less complicated than MFM; I suspect the
reason that it isn't used today is that it's inherently less reliable. For a
decent description of it,
see page 5 of the Shugard SA800/801 theory of operation manual on Bitsavers.
Intel used it on their MDS; I think HP used it for a short time as did Lanier for their WP
gear.
Other than that, it's pretty uncommon. The only monolithic floppy controller that I
know of
that supported it was the 8X330 chip for the Signetics 8X300 bipolar microcontroller.
--Chuck
7:30 p.m.
cclist at sydex.com wrote:
M2FM recording is pretty easy--the rules are less
complicated than MFM; I suspect the
reason that it isn't used today is that it's inherently less reliable. For a
decent description of it,
see page 5 of the Shugard SA800/801 theory of operation manual on Bitsavers.
Intel used it on their MDS; I think HP used it for a short time as did Lanier for their
WP gear.
Other than that, it's pretty uncommon. The only monolithic floppy controller that I
know of
that supported it was the 8X330 chip for the Signetics 8X300 bipolar microcontroller.
--Chuck
Check the 9885 manual for HP's format description, and the DD MDS controller
description under Intel.
Getting something going to image M2FM disks would be a good thing.
14 Sep
14 Sep
1:51 p.m.
New subject: HP9885 (was Itnel MDS Questions)
Check the 9885 manual for HP's format description,
and the DD MDS
controller description under Intel.
As an aside, does anyone happen to have any information on the host
interface to the 9885 disk unit?
OK, it's a 16 bit parallel data bus (commands sent there too) with some
control lines -- it was designed to link to a 98032 interface and the
spec of that is well-known.
But does anyone have any ideas as to the command set, etc. I think you
can deduce a little from the published source code in one of the
HP9000/200 Pascal technical manuals (on Bitsavers), but I'd rather not
battle through almost uncommented 68K assembler if I don't have to :-)
-tony
15 Sep
15 Sep
8:46 p.m.
New subject: M2FM floppy disk formats (was Re: Intellec MDS questions)
cclist at sydex.com wrote:
M2FM recording is pretty easy--the rules are less
complicated than MFM; I suspect the
reason that it isn't used today is that it's inherently less reliable. For a
decent description of it,
see page 5 of the Shugard SA800/801 theory of operation manual on Bitsavers.
The issue is that while M2FM channel encoding is simple enough, there
isn't a *standard* for a floppy disk M2FM track format. Intel M2FM
floppy format is different from Texas Instruments TMS9909 M2FM floppy
format, etc. The marks, PLO sync fields, etc. are different. Also,
some of the systems that use M2FM actually use a *modified* M2FM channel
encoding, which arguably should be called M3FM but isn't.
Eric
9:01 p.m.
New subject: M2FM floppy disk formats (was Re: Intellec MDS questions)
On 15 Sep 2009 at 17:46, Eric Smith wrote:
The issue is that while M2FM channel encoding is
simple enough, there
isn't a *standard* for a floppy disk M2FM track format. Intel M2FM
floppy format is different from Texas Instruments TMS9909 M2FM floppy
format, etc. The marks, PLO sync fields, etc. are different. Also,
some of the systems that use M2FM actually use a *modified* M2FM
channel encoding, which arguably should be called M3FM but isn't.
No argument, but armed with the general principles of M2FM, one
should be able to suss out what the address marks, etc. are. I've
certainly that with much less to go on. (As in, "here's a diskette,
we don't know where it came from--and it isn't FM or MFM. Can you
convert it?").
--Chuck
13 Sep
13 Sep
8:48 p.m.
On Sun, 13 Sep 2009, dwight elvey wrote:
>> Do you have any Intel ISIS-II OS diskettes
available? I have a Series II
>> MDS-225.
>
> I'm trying to help Richard out with copies of my ISIS-II diskettes. The
> SD diskettes read just fine using imagedisk, but the DD ones use M2FM
> (aka MMFM) encoding and are not recognized.
>
> In researching this on the net, I'm seeing conflicting claims as to
> whether the Catweasel controller will make sense of this format. Does
> anyone know from personal experience that it will? If so, what software
> tools were required?
Hi Steve
Catwheasel should be able to read the bits. I have the spec
on the different special marks some place. I'm not sure
how it would be written back though. It can't be created
with any of todays controllers.
I'd be happy to simply write out a new disk from the Catweasel at this
point.
I'll keep an eye out for the clock/data spec but
it may take
me some time to find it.
It's in one of the Intel MDS manuals. Found some discussion of the format
and links to the docs on Herb Johnson's web site.
Steve
p.s. - If anyone with a Catweasel and the necessary programming skills is
interested in taking a crack at it, contact me privately and I will see
about lending one of the M2FM diskettes to experiment with. My MDS system
came from a university electronics lab and was accompanied with about 40
diskettes - projects and original masters.
--
5424
days inactive
5430
days old
16 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
brianlanning＠gmail.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
classiccmp＠philpem.me.uk -
dkelvey＠hotmail.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
mainpatents＠gmail.com -
philpem＠philpem.me.uk -
snhirsch＠gmail.com