16 Apr
2002
16 Apr
'02
12:56 p.m.
Wow, a unique machine that Sellam *doesn't* have!
http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,51670,00.html
16 Apr
16 Apr
1:28 p.m.
Wow, a unique machine that Sellam *doesn't* have!
http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,51670,00.html
It sounds like a lot of guessing and assuming, with no
documentation. They claim it is the only Apple-produced
Tempest Mac known, but there's no proof that the system
was actually made by Apple and not some third-party.
--
Eric Dittman
dittman(a)dittman.net
Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/
10:55 p.m.
On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Eric Dittman wrote:
I actually doubt it was made by Apple. While I haven't met Bruce
personally but do know him, I think his comments may have either been
misreported by Wired (very common) or he is mistaken in believing the
computer was made by Apple.
The one I've got as well as the other one on Tom's pages were modified by
a third party company.
Also, it kind of sucks that it has no motherboard. That sort of limits
it's cool factor. The one I've got is complete, and works.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
Wow, a unique
machine that Sellam *doesn't* have!
http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,51670,00.html
It sounds like a lot of guessing and assuming, with no
documentation. They claim it is the only Apple-produced
Tempest Mac known, but there's no proof that the system
was actually made by Apple and not some third-party. 
17 Apr
17 Apr
4:15 a.m.
On Tue, 2002-04-16 at 23:28, Eric Dittman wrote:
> Wow, a unique machine that Sellam *doesn't*
have!
Hmm, what about the reference design that DEC did for a Set Top Box?
Nickname "shark", it had a StrongARM, Compactflash and PCMCIA, network,
serial, RF out etc etc, all in a package about 5" square and 1" high.
Alex
--
My computer's heavier than yours.
5:38 a.m.
On 17 Apr 2002, Alex White wrote:
I wouldn't call them "unique". The Shark (or Digital DNARD) was DEC's
evaluation board for the StrongARM when it first came out. They're
around, if you look hard enough.
Peace... Sridhar
> Wow, a
unique machine that Sellam *doesn't* have!
Hmm, what about the reference design that DEC did for a Set Top Box?
Nickname "shark", it had a StrongARM, Compactflash and PCMCIA, network,
serial, RF out etc etc, all in a package about 5" square and 1" high. 
9:20 a.m.
New subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac
My computer's heavier than yours.
new sig:
My computer's got more blinking lights than yours. 
10:16 a.m.
New subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac
Rumor has it that Hans Franke may have mentioned these words:
My computer's slower than yours.
My computer produces more humming noise than yours.
Howaboutz:
My computer's *really* hardCORE! ;-)
[[ frankly, core memory for me is just a passing oddity, tho - I prefer to
stick to TTL & microprocessors, myself... ]]
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.
If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
My
computer's heavier than yours.
new sig: My computer's got more blinking
lights than yours. 
10:17 a.m.
New subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac
On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote:
My computer's slower than yours.
My computer produces more humming noise than yours.
My computer has bigger relays than yours.
The company that made my computer has been out of business longer than
yours.
My computer requires more wire-swapping than yours to reprogram.
-- Pat
My
computer's heavier than yours.
new sig: My computer's got more blinking
lights than yours. 
10:12 a.m.
New subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac
--- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> wrote:
My computer's slower
than yours.
In the spirit of this "pecker contest" (as a former boss of mine would
call it), let me suggest the "ultimate" metric for bragging rights...
cubic-foot-BTU/Hr-lb-amps per KByte-MIPS.
If you want to include blinkenlights, throw lumens in there somewhere.
To throw out the first number, since I have the handbook right here,
I assess the PDP-8/e at 98889 cuftBTUlbA/KBMIPS*. I'm sure something
like an iPAQ would have an incredibly small number. If I had to guess,
I'd put the Straight-8 at about 4x the volume of the -8/e, 3x the power
and heat and 1/8th the memory, so roughly 2.85E+07 cuftBUTlbA/KBMIPS.
*Supporting data from pages 8-2, 8-16, et al. of the "small computer
handbook, 1973"...
o 24" x 10.5" x 19" = 4788 cu in = 2.77 cu ft
o 1700 BTU/Hr
o 90 lbs
o 5.6A (max - so assume full boat of core)
2.77 x 1700 x 90 x 5.6 = 2373336
o 32KW = 48KB (12 bits/word)
o 0.5 MIPS (re: http://www.pdp8.net/)
48 x .5 = 24
2373336 / 24 = 98889
Any other estimates? Should we consider BTU/Hr _or_ Amps (since more
power means more heat) or leave both values in the metric?
Disks could be similarly rated, leaving out MIPS. The RA81 would
have a large number, probably larger than most things made since
1984 (the RP03 would score well, too).
What's _your_ "best" machine?
-ethan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
My computer's heavier than yours.
new sig:
My computer's got more blinking lights than yours. 
11:18 a.m.
New subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac
Ethan Dicks said:
--- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)"
<cisin(a)xenosoft.com> wrote:
My computer's slower
than yours.
In the spirit of this "pecker contest" (as a former boss of mine would
call it), let me suggest the "ultimate" metric for bragging rights...
cubic-foot-BTU/Hr-lb-amps per KByte-MIPS.
If you want to include blinkenlights, throw lumens in there somewhere.
To throw out the first number, since I have the handbook right here,
I assess the PDP-8/e at 98889 cuftBTUlbA/KBMIPS*. I'm sure something
like an iPAQ would have an incredibly small number. If I had to guess,
This got me to thinking, since I have an iPaq. It's approximate
cuftBUTlbA/KBMIPS rating is:
5.651403e-08. [1]
yes, a very small number indeed. if this number is used to rate the
"classicness" of a computer, the iPaq could very well be the least classic
computer in existence ;)
[1] numbers involved:
cubic footage: 0.75. I think this might be high since I didn't actually
measure it.
BTU/hr: 1. I have no idea how much heat this thing outputs, but it does get
kind of warm, so 1 seems fair. it stays much cooler with the backlight off,
thought, maybe that should be figured in...
lb: 0.25; I think it weighs about 4oz.
A: 2, as this is what it's wall wart draws when it's plugged in. However, one
could make an argument that that's what is used to charge the battery and the
actual power demands of the device are lower. I am not making such an
argument because this was easy.
KB: 49152KB = 48MB -> 32MB RAM + 16MB flash.
MIPS: 135
- Dan Wright
(dtwright(a)uiuc.edu)
(http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright)
-] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [-
``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.''
Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan
My computer's heavier than yours.
new sig:
My computer's got more blinking lights than yours. 
1:36 p.m.
New subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac
yes, a very small number indeed. if this number is
used to rate the
"classicness" of a computer, the iPaq could very well be the least classic
computer in existence ;)
Consider the Epson RC-20 - a wristwatch with a Z80 and a serial port.
The current formula fails to include a parameter for age.
7:12 a.m.
New subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac
On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
If a formula for determining classic computer cool factor gets finalized,
I'd like to create a calculator script on the VCF website so that people
can enter their parameters and have their score automatically computed.
We need a unit or label for this number.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
yes, a very
small number indeed. if this number is used to rate the
"classicness" of a computer, the iPaq could very well be the least classic
computer in existence ;)
Consider the Epson RC-20 - a wristwatch with a Z80 and a serial port.
The current formula fails to include a parameter for age.
3:48 p.m.
New subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac
On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote:
If a formula for determining classic computer cool
factor gets finalized,
I'd like to create a calculator script on the VCF website so that people
can enter their parameters and have their score automatically computed.
We need a unit or label for this number.
D'ya mean like Classic Computer Calculated Combined Cool Coefficient?
5:09 p.m.
New subject: Geek-Factor Metrics; Was Re: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac
On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote:
Fred,
For a grumpy old codger, you simply rule.
Got my vote....
Doc
If a formula for determining classic computer
cool factor gets finalized,
I'd like to create a calculator script on the VCF website so that people
can enter their parameters and have their score automatically computed.
We need a unit or label for this number.
D'ya mean like Classic Computer Calculated Combined Cool Coefficient? 
7:10 p.m.
New subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac
If a formula for determining classic computer cool
factor gets finalized,
I'd like to create a calculator script on the VCF website so that people
can enter their parameters and have their score automatically computed.
We need a unit or label for this number.
The neuron.
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'll be at the opening of my garage
door."
18 Apr
18 Apr
5:04 p.m.
New subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac
On Wednesday, April 17, 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote:
If a formula for determining classic computer cool
factor gets finalized
... We need a unit or label for this number.
Are you annoyed that no one has suggested naming the unit the 'Ismail'? :-)
--
Jeffrey Sharp
The email address lists(a)subatomix.com is for mailing list traffic. Please
send off-list mail to roach jay ess ess at wasp subatomix beetle dot com.
You may need to remove some bugs first.
9:12 a.m.
New subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac
On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Jeffrey Sharp wrote:
On Wednesday, April 17, 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote:
That's reserved for when they codify how many flames a person can spit out
per minute.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
If a formula for determining classic computer
cool factor gets finalized
... We need a unit or label for this number.
Are you annoyed that no one has suggested naming the unit the 'Ismail'? :-)
17 Apr
17 Apr
4:38 p.m.
New subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac
On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Dan Wright wrote:
This got me to thinking, since I have an iPaq.
It's approximate
cuftBUTlbA/KBMIPS rating is:
5.651403e-08. [1]
yes, a very small number indeed. if this number is used to rate the
"classicness" of a computer, the iPaq could very well be the least classic
computer in existence ;)
[1] numbers involved:
cubic footage: 0.75. I think this might be high since I didn't actually
measure it.
WAY high. about 0.1' x 0.33' x 0.6' would be very generous, even
with the sleeve thingie. (1+" x 4" x ~7")
That's like 0.0165 cubic feet.
Doc
12:17 p.m.
New subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac
Ethan,
in order to make your gauge fair...
Any other estimates? Should we consider BTU/Hr _or_
Amps (since more
power means more heat) or leave both values in the metric?
Because different people may use different voltages to drive their
equipment, Amps don't tell anything. Use Watts instead. Otherwise, you
would discriminate many European people using 230V power, cutting
current in half. If you were to mean discriminating us by sticking to
plain Amps, I will use the 2*32A the power supplies in my BA-11K provide
at 5V and then add in the 10A @ 15V, so how about 74 Amps... ;-)
More power means more heat, right. Because BTU/hr specs might be harder
to get than power consumption, I vote to kick the BTU/hr value out.
--
Andreas Freiherr
Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany
http://www.vishay.com
1:34 p.m.
New subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac
On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote:
In the spirit of this "pecker contest" (as a
former boss of mine would
call it), let me suggest the "ultimate" metric for bragging rights...
cubic-foot-BTU/Hr-lb-amps per KByte-MIPS.
Should that read cubicfoot * BTU/Hr * pounds * (amps/KByte) * MIPS ?
Should be WATTs rather than AMPs, since the power consumption is the key
issue, not the current.
In the interest of international relations, should we switch to KG instead
of pounds?
18 Apr
18 Apr
8:33 a.m.
New subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac
--- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> wrote:
On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Mathematically, yes. I was attempting to write an English decription.
In the spirit of this "pecker contest"
(as a former boss of mine would
call it), let me suggest the "ultimate" metric for bragging rights...
cubic-foot-BTU/Hr-lb-amps per KByte-MIPS.
Should that read cubicfoot * BTU/Hr * pounds * (amps/KByte) * MIPS ? Should be WATTs rather than AMPs, since the power
consumption is the key
issue, not the current.
Sure. I thought about that, but I was already down the page and didn't
want to go back and re-do it. Guess I should have.
In the interest of international relations, should we
switch to KG
instead of pounds?
Machts Nichts to me.
-ethan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
17 Apr
17 Apr
1:14 p.m.
On Tue, 2002-04-16 at 23:28, Eric Dittman wrote:
> > Wow, a unique machine that Sellam *doesn't* have!
I didn't write that, I wrote a reply to that message.
--
Eric Dittman
dittman(a)dittman.net
Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/
8:23 p.m.
New subject: Digital Shark Was Re: Secret Mac
At 02:15 PM 17/04/2002 +0100, Alex White wrote:
On Tue, 2002-04-16 at 23:28, Eric Dittman wrote:
Have a look at
http://www.research.compaq.com/SRC/iag/
for information on the shark and
http://crl.research.compaq.com/projects/personalserver/
for information on the skiff.
Pretty neat stuff they get to do at CRL.
Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)kerberos.davies.net.au
| "If God had wanted soccer played in the
| air, the sky would be painted green"
> Wow, a unique machine that Sellam
*doesn't* have!
Hmm, what about the reference design that DEC did for a Set Top
Box?
Nickname "shark", it had a StrongARM, Compactflash and PCMCIA, network,
serial, RF out etc etc, all in a package about 5" square and 1" high. 
18 Apr
18 Apr
2:33 p.m.
Wow, a unique
machine that Sellam *doesn't* have!
http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,51670,00.html
It sounds like a lot of guessing and assuming, with no
documentation. They claim it is the only Apple-produced
Tempest Mac known, but there's no proof that the system
was actually made by Apple and not some third-party. 
8:16 p.m.
On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Tom Owad wrote:
>> Wow, a unique machine that Sellam
*doesn't* have!
>>
>> http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,51670,00.html
>
>It sounds like a lot of guessing and assuming, with no
>documentation. They claim it is the only Apple-produced
>Tempest Mac known, but there's no proof that the system
>was actually made by Apple and not some third-party.
I think you will find that it was the work of a third party. The
Tempest discipline was/is a very specialized one that requires special
facilities, test equipment, AND experience, and was inherently a low
volume operation - not the kind of thing that a computer manufacturer is
likely to find profitable. Hence, third party.
- don
The article is a bit fantastical with the black
helicopters and all.
My guess was that the SE/30 was built by Candes Systems (if I properly
read the label on the back), under license from Apple. ?If the Mac were
an Apple prototype (like Owen suggests), it would almost certainly be
labeled as such and would not have the Candes label. If it were an
official Apple product (as Bruce apparently believes), we'd know about
it. Claiming it was a confidential Apple product produced for the CIA or
some such agency sounds like fun, but is pretty unlikely. First, it is
unlikely Apple would have wanted to engage in the production of such a
low-production product. More probably, having recognized the existence
of this niche but not wanting to actively persue it, they would have
granted a smaller third party permission to build cases around Macintosh
motherboards Apple could have supplied. Apple has done similar (sort of)
with Dynamac and Outbound. Second, making a tempest Mac isn't hard. If
the military really wanted a tempest Macintosh and wanted the project to
remain confidential, they could have just slapped some metal around the
inside. There would have been no need to involve Apple. This licensing
theory has the potential to explain both the Apple logo and the lack of
awareness at Apple of the machine's existence.
Tom
Applefritter
www.applefritter.com
19 Apr
19 Apr
4:19 a.m.
New subject: TEMPEST equipment (was: Re: Secret Mac)
I think you will find that it was the work of a third
party. The
Tempest discipline was/is a very specialized one that requires special
facilities, test equipment, AND experience, and was inherently a low
volume operation - not the kind of thing that a computer manufacturer is
likely to find profitable. Hence, third party.
So where did this test equipment get to? Come on, guys, I want to see
someone read CRT emanations!
:)
Tom
Applefritter
www.applefritter.com
9:40 a.m.
New subject: TEMPEST equipment (was: Re: Secret Mac)
Hi,
Tom Owad <owad(a)applefritter.com> said:
I've seen it on TV...there was a program on the subject a few years ago
here in th UK.
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb(a)dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
I think you
will find that it was the work of a third party. The
Tempest discipline was/is a very specialized one that requires special
facilities, test equipment, AND experience, and was inherently a low
volume operation - not the kind of thing that a computer manufacturer is
likely to find profitable. Hence, third party.
So where did this test equipment get to? Come on, guys, I want to see
someone read CRT emanations! 
16 Apr
16 Apr
2:11 p.m.
I saw that, and I have my doubts about its "uniqueness." Tempest versions of
many systems have been built over the years and stay off the public's radar.
Sometimes, a third party will contract with a manufacturer to build and sell
Tempest versions of their computers that look more or less like the
originals. (GRiD did this for years.) And if this really was such a top
secret system, why did it end up at a salvage dealer?
Can anyone on this list shed more light on this Mac?
--Mike
Michael Nadeau
Editor/Publisher
Classic Tech, the Vintage Computing Resource
www.classictechpub.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Veeneman" <dan(a)ekoan.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 5:56 PM
Subject: Secret Mac
Wow, a unique machine that Sellam *doesn't* have!
http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,51670,00.html
11 p.m.
On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Michael Nadeau wrote:
I saw that, and I have my doubts about its
"uniqueness." Tempest versions of
many systems have been built over the years and stay off the public's radar.
Sometimes, a third party will contract with a manufacturer to build and sell
Tempest versions of their computers that look more or less like the
originals. (GRiD did this for years.) And if this really was such a top
secret system, why did it end up at a salvage dealer?
Can anyone on this list shed more light on this Mac?
I've been planning to make a visit to the DigiBarn where this is being
displayed. I'm also writing to Bruce to get more information.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
2:44 p.m.
I remember seeing ads for a Mac II converted to Tempest standards by a
3rd party company...expensive!
-Chandra
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Veeneman
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 5:56 PM
To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Secret Mac
Wow, a unique machine that Sellam *doesn't* have!
http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,51670,00.html
10:50 p.m.
On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Dan Veeneman wrote:
Wow, a unique machine that Sellam *doesn't* have!
http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,51670,00.html
Well, these things are unique and varied. I don't have one as described
in the article, but I do have this one (profiled on Tom Owad's most
excellent website):
http://www.applefritter.com/macclones/systematics/index.html
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
17 Apr
17 Apr
9:46 a.m.
At 07:50 AM 4/17/02 +0000, you wrote:
On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Dan Veeneman wrote:
Bull Shit! There's nothing unique about Tempest MACs! I've seen dozens if not
hundreds of the things! Anyody can pull the guts out of a standard MAC and put them into
a shielded case.
Joe
Wow, a unique machine that Sellam *doesn't*
have!
http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,51670,00.html
Well, these things are unique <snip>
8126
days inactive
8129
days old
35 comments
24 participants
participants (24)
-
Andreas.Freiherr＠Vishay.com -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
cbajpai＠attbi.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dan＠ekoan.com -
dittman＠dittman.net -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
donm＠cts.com -
dtwright＠uiuc.edu -
erd_6502＠yahoo.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
Hans.Franke＠mch20.sbs.de -
Huw.Davies＠kerberos.davies.net.au -
lists＠subatomix.com -
meltie＠myrealbox.com -
menadeau＠attbi.com -
owad＠applefritter.com -
pat＠cart-server.purdueriots.com -
rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com -
spectre＠stockholm.ptloma.edu -
stanb＠dial.pipex.com -
vance＠ikickass.org -
zmerch＠30below.com