8 Jan
2009
8 Jan
'09
9:10 p.m.
Paul Koning <Paul_Koning at Dell.com> wrote:
Definitely.
>>>>> >>>>>
"Henk" == Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> writes:
> 2. Is
there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would
> be nice to see it visibly doing something
Henk> Search the net. There is a small program (estimate 7 words). It
Henk> uses the RESET instruction (is that 000005?) ... not nice if
Henk> you connect an RX01 or RX02 to the machine as on every RESET
Henk> (INIT) the heads clunk!
That's a bit ugly... A cleaner one is the RSTS null job. It relies on the
fact that a
number of PDP-11s -- including the 11/05 as far as I remember -- will
display R0 in the lights during a WAIT instruction.
RT11 won't do, that uses the status register so you need a machine
that has it and that displays it. I forgot what RSX does. Not sure
you could run that on an -05 anyway.
RSX uses the side effect of R0 being shown on the data bus on a WAIT
instruction as well.
And yes, I think you could get RSX running on an 11/05. I don't think
there was any PDP11 that couldn't run RSX, but it would be a rather
specific RSX you would gen for it. I doubt you could boot any generic
RSX system on that machine. Instead you would have to run the sysgen on
another machine, and just boot the resulting system on the 11/05.
Think unmapped RSX. That won't use any MMU. Still, you'd probably want
the full 56K on that machine.
Sufficiently old RT11s should work on that machine.
So would RSTS
V4A, if you can find an RK05 or RF11 or RP03 disk drive. :-)
New versions of RT-11 should do as well, as long as you select a variant
that don't need the MMU. Same goes for RSX, except that RSX won't be
self-hosting.
RSTS null job looks like this:
; THE SIMPLE NULL JOB
10$: MOV R2,R1 ;RELOAD THE WAIT COUNTER
20$: WAIT ;DISPLAY THE LIGHTS (R0) A WHILE
SOB R1,20$ ;KEEP WAITING
ROL R0 ;ELSE SHIFT PATTERN 1 PLACE LEFT
BR 10$ ; AND AROUND AGAIN...
You need a periodic interrupt, of course, to break out of the WAIT.
And RSX is something similar. Fool around a little, set up R0, and WAIT.
The clock interrupt would break you out.
Johnny
9 Jan
9 Jan
11:25 a.m.
I've tried out this chasing lights code on the 11/05:
Location Contents Opcode Comment
001000 012700 mov #1,r0 Load 1 into R0
001002 000001
001004 006100 rol r0 Rotate R0 left
001006 000005 reset Initialise bus (70ms)
001010 000775 br .-4 Loop back to 'rol r0'
(from http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/11_40.html)
This runs, but no chasing lights, I just see what looks like PC activity. So perhaps the
11/05 doesn't display R0 on a RESET.
On the operating system front, I've built an RT11 v4 RX01 image on SIMH, but its
refusing
to work with 16KW of memory (using SJ). Does anyone have any tips for minimizing the
memory
requirements on RT-11?
Finally, I have a choice of RX21 + RX02 or RX11 + RX01 on the 11/05. Beyond the added pain
of
having to toggle in a longer bootstrap on the RX02, is there any reason not to go with
the
RX21/RX02 combo?
Thanks,
Toby
On Thu, 2009-01-08 at 22:10 +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Paul Koning <Paul_Koning at Dell.com> wrote:
Definitely.
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>>>>> >>>>>
"Henk" == Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> writes:
> 2. Is
there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would
> be nice to see it visibly doing something
Henk> Search the net. There is a small program (estimate 7 words). It
Henk> uses the RESET instruction (is that 000005?) ... not nice if
Henk> you connect an RX01 or RX02 to the machine as on every RESET
Henk> (INIT) the heads clunk!
That's a bit ugly... A cleaner one is the RSTS null job. It relies on
the fact that a
number of PDP-11s -- including the 11/05 as far as I remember -- will
display R0 in the lights during a WAIT instruction.
RT11 won't do, that uses the status register so you need a machine
that has it and that displays it. I forgot what RSX does. Not sure
you could run that on an -05 anyway.
RSX uses the side effect of R0 being shown on the data bus on a WAIT
instruction as well.
And yes, I think you could get RSX running on an 11/05. I don't think
there was any PDP11 that couldn't run RSX, but it would be a rather
specific RSX you would gen for it. I doubt you could boot any generic
RSX system on that machine. Instead you would have to run the sysgen on
another machine, and just boot the resulting system on the 11/05.
Think unmapped RSX. That won't use any MMU. Still, you'd probably want
the full 56K on that machine.
Sufficiently old RT11s should work on that
machine. So would RSTS
V4A, if you can find an RK05 or RF11 or RP03 disk drive. :-)
New versions of RT-11 should do as well, as long as you select a variant
that don't need the MMU. Same goes for RSX, except that RSX won't be
self-hosting.
RSTS null job looks like this:
; THE SIMPLE NULL JOB
10$: MOV R2,R1 ;RELOAD THE WAIT COUNTER
20$: WAIT ;DISPLAY THE LIGHTS (R0) A WHILE
SOB R1,20$ ;KEEP WAITING
ROL R0 ;ELSE SHIFT PATTERN 1 PLACE LEFT
BR 10$ ; AND AROUND AGAIN...
You need a periodic interrupt, of course, to break out of the WAIT.
And RSX is something similar. Fool around a little, set up R0, and WAIT.
The clock interrupt would break you out.
Johnny
1:53 p.m.
On Fri, 9 Jan 2009, Tobias Russell wrote:
I've tried out this chasing lights code on the
11/05:
[...]
This runs, but no chasing lights, I just see what
looks like PC activity. So perhaps the
11/05 doesn't display R0 on a RESET.
I think that you can't have any chasing lights on an 11/05 or 11/10. Both
processors are very reduced microcodes versions of the 11/20. And they
don't address the frontpanel like the other PDPs, but instead the single
row LED line is loaded serially and displays the PC when running. This FP
is really only useful when the CPU is halted.
Christian
2:24 p.m.
From: toby at coreware.co.uk
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 11:25:54 +0000
Subject: Re: PDP-11/05 returns to life
I've tried out this chasing lights code on the 11/05:
... snip ...
Finally, I have a choice of RX21 + RX02 or RX11 + RX01
on the 11/05. Beyond the added pain of having to toggle in
a longer bootstrap on the RX02, is there any reason not to
go with the RX21/RX02 combo?
Thanks,
Toby
The only thing that pops into my mind is that RX211 uses
"DMA" and RX11 does not. That means that for the RX211, the
NPG chain must be cut (the wire between pins CA1-CB1) of
the slot that will have the RX211. For the RX11 that wire
must be present. If it is not, the system may hang.
That depends on whether the module connects these two pins.
Some SPC modules do this, some do not ...
An other reason to go for RX02 is that with RX02 you can also
read RX01 formatted floppies. The RX02 drive has internally
a switch to act as an RX01. It is ovbious that you can not
read RX02 formatted floppies with the RX01 drive.
And RX02 offers twice the capacity of RX01 ...
If I am wrong in any of this, please correct me :-)
- Henk.
4:55 p.m.
On 09/01/2009 14:24, Henk Gooijen wrote:
> From: toby at coreware.co.uk
> Finally, I have a choice of RX21 + RX02 or RX11 +
RX01
> on the 11/05. Beyond the added pain of having to toggle in
> a longer bootstrap on the RX02, is there any reason not to
> go with the RX21/RX02 combo?
An other reason to go for RX02 is that with RX02 you
can also
read RX01 formatted floppies. The RX02 drive has internally
a switch to act as an RX01. It is ovbious that you can not
read RX02 formatted floppies with the RX01 drive.
The switch -- if you're referring to the small 2-position DIP switch --
is only used if you want to connect an RX02 drive unit to an RX11
controller, as if it were an RX01 drive unit (it's also used to set how
the RX02 behaves for an RX8 controller). You don't need to change it to
read RX01-format floppies in the RX02 connected to an RX211. If you do
change it, the RX02 won't work properly with the RX211 any more!
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
5 p.m.
Word. I routinely read and write RX01 disks for our VAX-11 on a PDP-11/03 with an RX02
drive. The only trick: for a new disk, FORMAT/SINGLEDENSITY, then INIT. -- Ian
________________________________________
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
Pete Turnbull [pete at dunnington.plus.com]
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 8:55 AM
To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: PDP-11/05 returns to life
On 09/01/2009 14:24, Henk Gooijen wrote:
> From: toby at coreware.co.uk
> Finally, I have a choice of RX21 + RX02 or RX11 +
RX01
> on the 11/05. Beyond the added pain of having to toggle in
> a longer bootstrap on the RX02, is there any reason not to
> go with the RX21/RX02 combo?
An other reason to go for RX02 is that with RX02 you
can also
read RX01 formatted floppies. The RX02 drive has internally
a switch to act as an RX01. It is ovbious that you can not
read RX02 formatted floppies with the RX01 drive.
The switch -- if you're referring to the small 2-position DIP switch --
is only used if you want to connect an RX02 drive unit to an RX11
controller, as if it were an RX01 drive unit (it's also used to set how
the RX02 behaves for an RX8 controller). You don't need to change it to
read RX01-format floppies in the RX02 connected to an RX211. If you do
change it, the RX02 won't work properly with the RX211 any more!
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
7:28 p.m.
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:55:35 +0000
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com
To:
Subject: Re: PDP-11/05 returns to life
On 09/01/2009 14:24, Henk Gooijen wrote:
OK! Thanks Pete. I have read about that switch, have seen it,
but never tried it. This is not completely what I thought.
See, on this list you can learn every day something new
about old stuff :-)
- Henk.
> From: toby at coreware.co.uk
> Finally, I have a choice of RX21 + RX02 or
RX11 + RX01
> on the 11/05. Beyond the added pain of having to toggle in
> a longer bootstrap on the RX02, is there any reason not to
> go with the RX21/RX02 combo?
An other reason to go for RX02 is that with RX02
you can also
read RX01 formatted floppies. The RX02 drive has internally
a switch to act as an RX01. It is ovbious that you can not
read RX02 formatted floppies with the RX01 drive.
The switch -- if you're referring to the small 2-position DIP switch --
is only used if you want to connect an RX02 drive unit to an RX11
controller, as if it were an RX01 drive unit (it's also used to set how
the RX02 behaves for an RX8 controller). You don't need to change it to
read RX01-format floppies in the RX02 connected to an RX211. If you do
change it, the RX02 won't work properly with the RX211 any more!
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York 
8:35 p.m.
On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 9:24 AM, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
I have seen plenty of older quad SPCs that do not use NPR have a
manually-added NPR jumper in case they are installed in a slot with
the wire removed. Newer SPCs frequently had that in copper.
I frequently get tripped up by this since where I learned about the
Unibus, we routinely removed *all* NPR jumpers and used our own
dual-height grant cards with NPR (and never used DEC G727
single-height INTR-only grants). It makes reconfiguration easy, until
you get a fresh backplane in a BA-11 and can't figure out why things
are hanging.
From: toby at coreware.co.uk
Subject: Re: PDP-11/05 returns to life
Finally, I have a choice of RX21 + RX02 or RX11 + RX01
... is there any reason not to go with the RX21/RX02 combo?
The only thing that pops into my mind is that RX211 uses
"DMA" and RX11 does not. That means that for the RX211, the
NPG chain must be cut (the wire between pins CA1-CB1) of
the slot that will have the RX211. For the RX11 that wire
must be present. If it is not, the system may hang.
That depends on whether the module connects these two pins.
Some SPC modules do this, some do not ... An other reason to go for RX02 is that with RX02 you
can also
read RX01 formatted floppies. The RX02 drive has internally
a switch to act as an RX01. It is ovbious that you can not
read RX02 formatted floppies with the RX01 drive.
And RX02 offers twice the capacity of RX01 ...
If I am wrong in any of this, please correct me :-)
Nope... all correct as far as I can see.
-ethan
2:31 p.m.
>>>> "Tobias" == Tobias Russell
<toby at coreware.co.uk> writes:
Tobias> On the operating system front, I've built an RT11 v4 RX01
Tobias> image on SIMH, but its refusing to work with 16KW of memory
Tobias> (using SJ). Does anyone have any tips for minimizing the
Tobias> memory requirements on RT-11?
Strange for SJ to be so bloated... I haven't used that recent a
version. I do remember that SJ ran fine in 8 kW back in version 2.0.
That's a pre-DCL version (it has PDP-10 like command lines). If you
can find one that might be a good one to try.
paul
5833
days inactive
5834
days old
8 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
bqt＠softjar.se -
cc＠informatik.uni-stuttgart.de -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
henk.gooijen＠hotmail.com -
IanK＠vulcan.com -
Paul_Koning＠Dell.com -
pete＠dunnington.plus.com -
toby＠coreware.co.uk