20 Jan
2015
20 Jan
'15
8:04 a.m.
"Nice rack", as they say. I have an HP 7970E and was wondering what to put
it into. That is the right solution... I've seen in pictures that HP also
had some special desk-like looking furniture to put the early 7970's in,
with a slanted panel in which the tape drive would go. Never seen one of
these in the flesh.
Marc
From: "Jay West" <jwest at
classiccmp.org>
And if you want to follow the build of the 2000/Access IO-rack (which holds
tape, terminal controller and bulkhead, and disk controller subsystem):
http://www.ezwind.net/hp2000/IO-Rack/
J
20 Jan
20 Jan
12:49 p.m.
On Tue, 20 Jan 2015, Marc Verdiell wrote:
I have a 7970E in a 7971A rack, which can take two 7970E drives. I
elected to mount a 2109E and a 9895A underneath the 7970E.
http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/VCF-East2014/G_IMG_3359.jpg
I've also worked on a 7970E in the slanted "low boy" cabinet.
There's
a lot of wasted space in there.
http://www.hpmuseum.net/images/7970ETouched-37.jpg
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
From:
"Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org>
And if you want to follow the build of the 2000/Access IO-rack (which holds
tape, terminal controller and bulkhead, and disk controller subsystem):
http://www.ezwind.net/hp2000/IO-Rack/
"Nice rack", as they say. I have an HP 7970E and was wondering what to put
it into. That is the right solution... I've seen in pictures that HP also
had some special desk-like looking furniture to put the early 7970's in,
with a slanted panel in which the tape drive would go. Never seen one of
these in the flesh.
Marc 
1:56 p.m.
Mike wrote...
----
I have a 7970E in a 7971A rack, which can take two 7970E drives. I elected
to mount a 2109E and a 9895A underneath the 7970E.
----
Nice rig. You have one of the "newer" style racks which have a more
(industry) standard post/mounting setup. I had one or two of those, but got
rid of them in favor of standardizing on the older style racks which I had
more of (02940-90306). Plus my dual 2100-based Access system is in the
"correct" rack, which was the dual bay with the front "running board"
(29404B).
HP rack docs for the stuff I use insist on the cpu's and most other devices
going in one rack and the tape drives in a separate rack. I'd suspect for
power distribution reasons (each rack held 20A).
The HP specs for 2000/Access systems (as factory delivered at the time of
printing at least) called for rack1 to hold the 2 cpus, rack2 to hold the
tape and 13037 (disc) subsystem box, and all disk drives to be installed in
one drive per "low boy" rack (29425A) ie. racks3-10 for a maximum config.
I have two of the 29425A racks, one is actively in use (7906) and the other
is waiting to be restored. I hope to use that one for this build but it will
need a new formica top which probably won't be cheap to obtain. Not sure if
I have all the skins/doors for it so I may have to just use the one already
restored/running.
So this system build will have 3 racks, two 2940's (one for two cpus, one
for tape & 13037), and one of the 29425A's with a 7906.
----
I've also worked on a 7970E in the slanted "low boy" cabinet. There's a
lot
of wasted space in there.
----
Very cool. I've always wanted one of those, just cause they look so neat.
But like Marc, I have never seen one in the wild.
J
2:38 p.m.
On Tue, 20 Jan 2015, Jay West wrote:
Mike wrote...
----
I have a 7970E in a 7971A rack, which can take two 7970E drives. I elected
to mount a 2109E and a 9895A underneath the 7970E.
----
Nice rig. You have one of the "newer" style racks which have a more
(industry) standard post/mounting setup. I had one or two of those, but got
rid of them in favor of standardizing on the older style racks which I had
more of (02940-90306). Plus my dual 2100-based Access system is in the
"correct" rack, which was the dual bay with the front "running
board"
(29404B).
Those 7971A cabinets are HEAVY, even without the 7970E! I'm very
limited by space and rack availability. The 7970 came in the 7971. I
took the whole rig to VCF East last year, along with a 2645A, a 2647A and
a PC to run the HPDrive emulator, with RTE-6/VM. This year I'm exhibiting
a TRS-80 Model 4. :-)
So this system build will have 3 racks, two 2940's
(one for two cpus, one
for tape & 13037), and one of the 29425A's with a 7906.
Nice setup.
I'd like to find a 7906H, if such a thing exists in the wild any more.
----
I've also worked on a 7970E in the slanted "low boy" cabinet. There's
a lot
of wasted space in there.
----
Very cool. I've always wanted one of those, just cause they look so neat.
But like Marc, I have never seen one in the wild.
As I mentioned, not very space efficient. That was actually the first
thing I worked on when I reported to work at Atlantic Tech Services in
Gaithersburg, MD in 1986. They rolled out the 7970E and said, "Here, fix
it". :-) "Okay, I need the service manual, a scope, and something to run
the diagnostics on." They pointed me to a Tektronix scope sitting in a
cabinet, and told me "Here's the scope, but we don't know how to use
it."
ATS was a 3rd party HP maintenance shop just getting started, but
things ramped up very quickly.
I really like the looks of the desk systems, like the 3000 Series 48.
Space-wise though, I'm the lookout for a reasonably priced Series 42.
There's been one on Ebay for months for $1,725 but I consider that
excessive.
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
3:05 p.m.
Mike wrote...
----
Those 7971A cabinets are HEAVY, even without the 7970E! I'm very limited by
space and rack availability. The 7970 came in the 7971. I took the whole
rig to VCF East last year, along with a 2645A, a 2647A and a PC to run the
HPDrive emulator, with RTE-6/VM. This year I'm exhibiting a TRS-80 Model 4.
:-)
----
HP->TRS80 (due to weight/bulk) I SO get where you're coming from lol My last
exhibit at VCFMW was single board computers, for that same reason!
I'm not 100% sure yet, but my plan/hope is to bring all three bays to VCFMW
and exhibit a running 2000/Access installation. I'm dreading the carriage
and may still back out, but I'm still shooting for it. We'll see. Maybe.
Perhaps if another collector wants to meet me in St. Louis to help load, and
ride with up to VCFMW that would make it more palatable. I dunno.
I've never been quite set up correctly to focus on RTE (due to TSB and RTE
wanting different hardware configs), but after this particular build (and
hopefully the exhibit), I'll add some things to allow me to easily run RTE.
How did that HPDrive work out? I haven't done that yet. If I was to mount a
PC in one of my HP racks with a 2100 or 21MX, I just don't think I could
sleep at night.
----
I'd like to find a 7906H, if such a thing exists in the wild any more.
----
I've been able to find a pretty fair number of 7906's. Because my (current)
os of choice is TSB, the H version (HPIB) is not an option. So any H's that
I got, I converted to D's (swapping one board and some cable assemblies). If
you want to spend cash, I know several commercial folks that are still
selling the 7906's (either flavor).
----
I really like the looks of the desk systems, like the 3000 Series 48.
Space-wise though, I'm on the lookout for a reasonably priced Series 42.
There's been one on Ebay for months for $1,725 but I consider that
excessive.
----
Yeah, I've been eyeing the same one. I would LOVE to have it... but in my
(few) more sane moments I realize I just don't have the time/focus to take
on another architecture these days.
Best,
J
3:14 p.m.
Er, no. The one I've been eyeing on ebay is a 3000 series 58 (item
191476657165)
But way too rich for my blood, and no time to dilute what little time I have
for classiccmp :\
J
6:10 p.m.
On Tue, 20 Jan 2015, Jay West wrote:
Er, no. The one I've been eyeing on ebay is a 3000
series 58 (item
191476657165)
But way too rich for my blood, and no time to dilute what little time I have
for classiccmp :\
I've seen that one too, but it's WAY over my budget, not to mention
being on the wrong coast. Oh hey, it's on sale! :-)
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
21 Jan
21 Jan
1:55 p.m.
On Tue, 20 Jan 2015, Jay West wrote:
I've never been quite set up correctly to focus on
RTE (due to TSB and RTE
wanting different hardware configs), but after this particular build (and
hopefully the exhibit), I'll add some things to allow me to easily run RTE.
How did that HPDrive work out? I haven't done that yet. If I was to mount a
PC in one of my HP racks with a 2100 or 21MX, I just don't think I could
sleep at night.
HPDrive works well for RTE-6/VM. I had it set up to emulate a 7925H,
and loaded it up with some additional software and games (everyone wants
to play games, even on a mini). I had 3 login sessions going, one each on
the 2645A, the 2647A and on the PC running QCTerm through a serial port.
I had the PC hidden under the table. :-)
Someone needs to come up with the hardware equivalent of HPDrive so we
don't need to dedicate an entire Windoze system just to emulate a drive.
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
2:11 p.m.
Mike wrote...
----
HPDrive works well for RTE-6/VM. I had it set up to emulate a 7925H, and
loaded it up with some additional software and games (everyone wants to play
games, even on a mini). I had 3 login sessions going, one each on the
2645A, the 2647A and on the PC running QCTerm through a serial port.
----
I found a reseller offering "tested working 7925's in quantity". I just may
pick up a couple, but not cheap. Need more room to put them though.
----
I had the PC hidden under the table. :-)
----
Good call :)
----
Someone needs to come up with the hardware equivalent of HPDrive so we don't
need to dedicate an entire Windoze system just to emulate a drive.
----
I am not 100% positive, but I think this was already done. Didn't Bob
Shannon build up an HP<->IDEdrive rig? Not sure if he did it just for
himself, or something that was available to the community. Bob isn't really
active in the classiccmp community at the moment but might be again "some
day". I think one issue is that half the folks insist on using an HPIB
interface which is of no use to the HP2000 folks (currently, that may
change). I don't recall if the drive was identical to one RTE supported or
if it needed a unique driver to support it. A modern board with a couple
7925's in FRAM would be rather nice ;) I can think of at least one other
interface cardset that would be "helpful" in such a product *grin*
J
2:43 p.m.
I think one issue is that half the folks insist on
using an HPIB
interface [...]
I don't suppose there's anything like HPdrive in the open-source world?
I've had building something to act like an HPIB disk as a blue-sky
project for some years, and, while I may still do it, if someone has
already done it I would love to find out about it.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
3:21 p.m.
On Wed, 21 Jan 2015, Mouse wrote:
Jay West wrote:
> I think one issue is that half the folks insist on using an HPIB
> interface [...]
I'm one of those folks. I'm more interested in later OS, and HPIB
peripherals are what I worked with on the HP 3000 systems. Plus, I
wouldn't need a 13037C to control a 7925M. :-)
I don't suppose there's anything like HPdrive
in the open-source world?
I've had building something to act like an HPIB disk as a blue-sky
project for some years, and, while I may still do it, if someone has
already done it I would love to find out about it.
Anders Gustafsson has designed a GPIB disk emulator that currently
emulates several Amigo and SS/80 drives: 9121D, 9122D and 9134D:
http://www.dalton.ax/hpdisk/
If someone had the time, it should be possible to extend the firmware
to support bigger drives like the 7925H or 7935.
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
5:29 p.m.
Mike wrote...
----
I'm one of those folks. I'm more interested in later OS, and HPIB
peripherals are what I worked with on the HP 3000 systems.
----
And therein lies the issue making it a more daunting task. If someone
designs a replacement that is HPIB, the 2000/Access people are left out. If
someone designs a replacement that is for the prior generation (7905, 06,
25M, etc.) then the HP-IB users are left out which makes the target "market"
smaller (in either scenario) and less people contributing to the "kit".
BUT... asking someone to design one that handles BOTH probably makes it a
far more daunting task and thus leaves those with the skillset to do it less
interested!
----
Plus, I wouldn't need a 13037C to control a 7925M. :-)
----
Mike, I have a spare 13037C or two... come, to the dark side... LOL
J
5:54 p.m.
On 1/21/15 9:29 AM, Jay West wrote:
If
someone designs a replacement that is for the prior generation (7905, 06,
25M, etc.) then the HP-IB users are left out which makes the target "market"
smaller
They are fundamentally different problems. You want a dumb little box with an
HPIB connector that does not require new drivers in the SS80/CS80 space and
a single 2100 form factor card with compatible CTL logic for 2100s and 1000s,
similar what is being done for Omnibus and Unibus.
I was disappointed when HPDrive sources were never released, because I spent a
considerable amount of time and money to collect the CS80 peripherals that were
needed to acquire all of the IDENT information it now uses. At least (so far)
he is still distributing that information in cleartext.
6:23 p.m.
And what about us HP-IL folks ?
JK ;-)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org>
To: <mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us>; "'General Discussion: On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 12:29 PM
Subject: RE: HP tape drive novel repair
Mike wrote...
----
I'm one of those folks. I'm more interested in later OS, and HPIB
peripherals are what I worked with on the HP 3000 systems.
----
And therein lies the issue making it a more daunting task. If someone
designs a replacement that is HPIB, the 2000/Access people are left out.
If
someone designs a replacement that is for the prior generation (7905, 06,
25M, etc.) then the HP-IB users are left out which makes the target
"market"
smaller (in either scenario) and less people contributing to the "kit".
BUT... asking someone to design one that handles BOTH probably makes it a
far more daunting task and thus leaves those with the skillset to do it
less
interested!
----
Plus, I wouldn't need a 13037C to control a 7925M. :-)
----
Mike, I have a spare 13037C or two... come, to the dark side... LOL
J
20 Jan
20 Jan
1:30 p.m.
Marc wrote...
-------
"Nice rack", as they say. I have an HP 7970E and was wondering what to put
it into. That is the right solution... I've seen in pictures that HP also
had some special desk-like looking furniture to put the early 7970's in,
with a slanted panel in which the tape drive would go. Never seen one of
these in the flesh.
-------
Slanted model - me neither. Note that the 7970 (for vertical mount, not the
slanted horizontal mount you refer to) came with a special bracket to mount
in the "rather unique" post design of HP racks of the period. The 3 mounting
holes on the right side of the drive should be able to bolt in to most any
rack. However, the mounting holes on the left of the drive are on the INSIDE
of the back metal chassis, not on the front like the ones on the right are.
It may be non-trivial to try to mount one if you don't have the HP mounting
bracket.
For this installation, I have 2 of the 3 special shims that go on the right
behind the bolt flanges. I'm going to have to be creative with something to
work similarly, maybe a couple washers glued on the back will suffice, but
that offends my sensibilities. I might try to fabricate a replacement.
The special mounting bracket mounts on the left and bolts in from the front.
It provides a lip to set the tape drive on while you bolt the right side. It
also provides the 4 nuts embedded into the bracket on the left, further back
inside the rack, that 4 bolts from the inside of the chassis can mate with.
At 130#, it's probably not a one-man job. As best as I can tell, you have to
set the tape drive in the rack with the front hinged section fully open.
That's asking for damage ;) What I may do if I can't schedule a helper, is
use those angle iron brackets to set the tape in place and hold it steady,
then remove them afterwards. To do that, you'd have to mount the angle
brackets with the flat surface up, not down, or you couldn't remove the
bolts.
So if you don't have the HP 7970 mounting bracket, the only thing I can
think of is using "angle iron" brackets that HP often supplied for test
equipment and later cpu models so that the drive can sit on those, and then
at least be able to bolt in the right side. That said, it might move
slightly whenever you tilt open the front.
I got rid of several empty HP racks back around 7 or so years ago and now I
find myself wishing I hadn't :) I had yet another 7970E, but it has
disappeared from the basement. I *KNEW* there was a miniature black hole
down there somewhere.
J
3629
days inactive
3630
days old
14 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
marc.verdiell＠gmail.com -
mhs.stein＠gmail.com -
mloewen＠cpumagic.scol.pa.us -
mouse＠Rodents-Montreal.ORG