13 Jan
2007
13 Jan
'07
1:40 p.m.
I have a old VAXstation 3100/76 I'm playing around with (it's
surprising how much faster the VAX 4000/200 "seems" - guess it's better
memory and I/O bandwidth). The beastie is not-quite-complete (running
it as a VAXserver, and the external SCSI connector has been replaced
with a HD-50 that isn't functional- not sure if that's bad wiring or
bad SCSI chip), but it does have a full 32MB RAM and all the tests it
fails are explainable (?? on the network (since it's not connected,
that's expected), ? on the serial lines (no kb/mouse connected there)
and the external SCSI (nothing connected and known issues).
Anyway-to the question: Neither NetBSD 2.0 or 3.0 will install
successfully. They both segfault, usually during install but once I got
3.0 installed and it was very limited functionality. Officially the
3176 is supported, but is NetBSD known to be tempermental? (I'm not
sure if it's the VAX or the software - VMS boots fine, but if the
system's wonky I won't bother with it anymore).
Can't test NetBSD on my other VAX (4000-200), since SHAC isn't
supported.
13 Jan
13 Jan
2:41 p.m.
On 13/01/07, Scott Quinn <compoobah at valleyimplants.com> wrote:
I have a old VAXstation 3100/76 I'm playing around
with (it's
surprising how much faster the VAX 4000/200 "seems" - guess it's better
memory and I/O bandwidth). The beastie is not-quite-complete (running
it as a VAXserver, and the external SCSI connector has been replaced
with a HD-50 that isn't functional- not sure if that's bad wiring or
bad SCSI chip), but it does have a full 32MB RAM and all the tests it
fails are explainable (?? on the network (since it's not connected,
that's expected), ? on the serial lines (no kb/mouse connected there)
and the external SCSI (nothing connected and known issues).
Anyway-to the question: Neither NetBSD 2.0 or 3.0 will install
successfully. They both segfault, usually during install but once I got
3.0 installed and it was very limited functionality. Officially the
3176 is supported, but is NetBSD known to be tempermental? (I'm not
sure if it's the VAX or the software - VMS boots fine, but if the
system's wonky I won't bother with it anymore).
Can't test NetBSD on my other VAX (4000-200), since SHAC isn't
supported.
The NetBSD Installer can be wonky at best. I've not tried 3 but 2 I've
installed by netbooting and copying and extracting all the files. Then
once pkgsrc is setup you're away.
Some of my 3100's will barf at the scsi connector without a terminator
some are fine. I normally ignore it, I would guess it's s down to
firmware revision.
Dan
7:36 p.m.
On 1/13/07, Scott Quinn <compoobah at valleyimplants.com> wrote:
I have a old VAXstation 3100/76 I'm playing around with (it's
surprising how much faster the VAX 4000/200 "seems" - guess it's better
memory and I/O bandwidth). The beastie is not-quite-complete (running
it as a VAXserver, and the external SCSI connector has been replaced
with a HD-50 that isn't functional- not sure if that's bad wiring or
bad SCSI chip), but it does have a full 32MB RAM and all the tests it
The SCSI connector on 3100 76 is wired differently from the standard. I was
told that it was because there was no standard when the first vaxstation was
out. You need a DEC specific SCSI cable to use the port.
vax, 9000
fails are explainable (?? on the network (since it's not connected,
that's expected), ? on the serial lines (no
kb/mouse connected there)
and the external SCSI (nothing connected and known issues).
Anyway-to the question: Neither NetBSD 2.0 or 3.0 will install
successfully. They both segfault, usually during install but once I got
3.0 installed and it was very limited functionality. Officially the
3176 is supported, but is NetBSD known to be tempermental? (I'm not
sure if it's the VAX or the software - VMS boots fine, but if the
system's wonky I won't bother with it anymore).
Can't test NetBSD on my other VAX (4000-200), since SHAC isn't
supported.
8:12 p.m.
9000 VAX wrote:
The SCSI connector on 3100 76 is wired differently
from the standard.
I was told that it was because there was no standard when the first
vaxstation was out. You need a DEC specific SCSI cable to use the
port.
The wiring inside the VAXstation 3100-76 may well be "non-standard",
but the external connector works perfectly well with any SCSI
cable which physically connects. Internally there is a single
cable harness even though the internal devices and external
devices are separate SCSI channels. So you cannot replace
the harness (with anything other than the exact same
harness) without knowing exactly what you are doing.
If the external connector has been replaced with an
Amphenol one, then perhaps that was not done properly.
There's a terminator on the harness too - and my recollection
is that without it things do not work well (if at all).
Antonio
16 Jan
16 Jan
4:49 a.m.
On Sun, Jan 14, 2007 at 01:12:11AM -0000, arcarlini at iee.org wrote:
The wiring inside the VAXstation 3100-76 may well be "non-standard",
but the external connector works perfectly well with any SCSI
cable which physically connects.
I'm a bit confused. I've got an M76 which I'd love to install a later
version of VMS on (it's currently on 5.5), but everything I've read has said
that the external SCSI connector is DEC-specific and needs a DEC BC09J cable
to attach normal SCSI devices to (a cable which I've not yet found at a
reasonable price). Is this not the case?
1:20 p.m.
On 16/1/07 09:49, "Adrian Burgess" <classiccmp at discordance.org.uk>
wrote:
On Sun, Jan 14, 2007 at 01:12:11AM -0000, arcarlini at
iee.org wrote:
VAXstations have an external 68-way male connector as standard, the OP's
machine has had this retrofitted (badly?) with an HD50 instead. If I had
easy access to my M78 I could try swapping the internal cable with something
that terminates in a 'standard'* SCSI-1 centronics** connector since I'm
pretty sure they both terminate in headers on the motherboard, but something
is nagging at me that the thinner VAXstations (similar to an Infoserver150)
had the external connector on the main internal bus wiring?
*yeah I know, plenty to choose from etc :)
**I know it's not its real name, I can't remember what it really is.....
--
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?
The wiring inside the VAXstation 3100-76 may well be "non-standard",
but the external connector works perfectly well with any SCSI
cable which physically connects.
I'm a bit confused. I've got an M76 which I'd love to install a later
version of VMS on (it's currently on 5.5), but everything I've read has said
that the external SCSI connector is DEC-specific and needs a DEC BC09J cable
to attach normal SCSI devices to (a cable which I've not yet found at a
reasonable price). Is this not the case? 
4:10 p.m.
On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 09:49:27AM +0000, Adrian Burgess wrote:
On Sun, Jan 14, 2007 at 01:12:11AM -0000, arcarlini at
iee.org wrote:
The 68-pin connector on these is NOT standard, and definitely NOT
SCSI-III.
You can use either a BC09J-xx or a BC56H-xx cable. The -xx at the end
specifies the cable length (i.e. -03 for three foot, -06 for six foot,
-10 for ten foot, etc.) The BC09J has an angled 50 pin connector on one
end, and the straight 68-pin female connector on the other. The BC56H
has a straight 50 pin connector on one end, and a straight 68-pin female
connector on the other. Only DEC made these cables as far as I'm aware.
I have five of them, and I hoard them jealously, like some sort of
bejeweled sacred hoardable thing.
(OK, well maybe they're not THAT rare. You can get them on eBay
frequently for around $15 to $20.)
-Seth
The wiring inside the VAXstation 3100-76 may well be "non-standard",
but the external connector works perfectly well with any SCSI
cable which physically connects.
I'm a bit confused. I've got an M76 which I'd love to install a later
version of VMS on (it's currently on 5.5), but everything I've read has said
that the external SCSI connector is DEC-specific and needs a DEC BC09J cable
to attach normal SCSI devices to (a cable which I've not yet found at a
reasonable price). Is this not the case?
5:40 p.m.
Seth J. Morabito wrote:
The 68-pin connector on these is NOT standard, and
definitely NOT
SCSI-III.
There are non-DEC machines around that use the MicroD68 (or is it
Honda68) connector ... is it just the gender that makes you say
it is non-standard? Or do you believe that the DEC pin-out does not
match the SCSI-2 pinout? (I cannot claimn for sure that it does
since the M76 may have come out before SCSI-2 ... the engineering
spec for the KA43 (system board used in the M76) is dated 16-Oct-1990
but I don't have the date of the SCSI-2 spec to hand. Either way,
I pretty sure that the M76 SCSI is SCSI-1.
Have you tried connecting one of those 68-pin-to-50-pin SCSI
converters on it to see whether a device will work?
This page http://www.phm.lu/documentation/connectors/SCSI.asp
has the various pinouts so if you have a BC09J to hand you
can buzz it out and see whether things are as expected or
not. (My desktop VAX is a VS4000-90, which went back to
the 50-way connectors on the back so I don't have a
BC09J to hand.
According to the cable guide I have, the BC56H (equiv to
a BC09J but straight rather than 90 degrees ... or vice
versa) is also used on the Decstation 2100/3100 and
the InfoServer tower (whose part number I don't know).
So it is not unique to this box.
Antonio
5:42 p.m.
On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 10:40:44PM -0000, arcarlini at iee.org wrote:
Seth J. Morabito wrote:
Maybe this will help?
http://ce.et.tudelft.nl/~knop/cables/DEC_SCSI.html
--
Christer O. Andersson
Odensbacken
The 68-pin connector on these is NOT standard,
and definitely NOT
SCSI-III.
According to the cable guide I have, the BC56H (equiv to
a BC09J but straight rather than 90 degrees ... or vice
versa) is also used on the Decstation 2100/3100 and
the InfoServer tower (whose part number I don't know).
So it is not unique to this box.
6:06 p.m.
On 16/1/07 22:40, "arcarlini at iee.org" <arcarlini at iee.org> wrote:
spec for the KA43 (system board used in the M76) is
dated 16-Oct-1990
but I don't have the date of the SCSI-2 spec to hand. Either way,
I pretty sure that the M76 SCSI is SCSI-1.
Oh yes, didn't MicroVAXen of that era leap from SCSI-1 in the 3100-10 etc
upwards to UltraSCSI in the 4100-108? I don't ever remember putting SCSI-2
disks in those machines even in the mid 90s - SCSI-2 and wide SCSI stuff was
always on AlphaServers, though I'm pretty sure a KZ-style adapter was
available for the 3100-8x and 9x later on.
versa) is also used on the Decstation 2100/3100 and
the InfoServer tower (whose part number I don't know).
So it is not unique to this box.
I thought it was all the 'thin' style 3100s, same size as the 3100-10 and
20, M76 etc.....all of mine are at work so I can't easily check till
tomorrow.
--
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?
9:20 p.m.
Adrian Graham wrote:
On 16/1/07 22:40, "arcarlini at iee.org"
<arcarlini at iee.org> wrote:
There were slots in the MicroVAX 3100-9x? What kind? I've never seen
this machine in the wild.
I knew that there's a TurboChannel option for the VAXstation 4000/90.
Peace... Sridhar
spec for the KA43 (system board used in the M76)
is dated 16-Oct-1990
but I don't have the date of the SCSI-2 spec to hand. Either way,
I pretty sure that the M76 SCSI is SCSI-1.
Oh yes, didn't MicroVAXen of that era leap from SCSI-1 in the 3100-10 etc
upwards to UltraSCSI in the 4100-108? I don't ever remember putting SCSI-2
disks in those machines even in the mid 90s - SCSI-2 and wide SCSI stuff was
always on AlphaServers, though I'm pretty sure a KZ-style adapter was
available for the 3100-8x and 9x later on.
17 Jan
17 Jan
2:07 a.m.
Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
There were slots in the MicroVAX 3100-9x? What kind?
I've never seen
this machine in the wild.
I knew that there's a TurboChannel option for the VAXstation 4000/90.
IIRC the MicroVAX 3100-98, VAX 4000-108 and MicroVAX 3100-88 all shipped
in
PC-style cases.
They had an internal slot or two. These looked like PCI connectors
but were in fact more or less the same as the option connectors on
the other (more traditional) MicroVAX 3100-9x systems. Used to connect
the DSW43 synch adapter and maybe a few other options that I've
forgotten.
Antonio
16 Jan
16 Jan
9:19 p.m.
arcarlini at iee.org wrote:
According to the cable guide I have, the BC56H (equiv
to
a BC09J but straight rather than 90 degrees ... or vice
versa) is also used on the Decstation 2100/3100 and
the InfoServer tower (whose part number I don't know).
So it is not unique to this box.
That cable is compatible with the DECstation 2100/3100/(5100?), but not
with the InfoServer tower. It is compatible with the InfoServer
*desktop* (100 or 150) which is basically a VAXstation 3100 with an
internal CD-ROM and custom firmware.
Peace... Sridhar
14 Jan
14 Jan
5:10 a.m.
On Sat, Jan 13, 2007 at 10:40:45AM -0800, Scott Quinn wrote:
Anyway-to the question: Neither NetBSD 2.0 or 3.0 will
install
successfully. They both segfault, usually during install but once I got
3.0 installed and it was very limited functionality. Officially the
3176 is supported, but is NetBSD known to be tempermental? (I'm not
sure if it's the VAX or the software - VMS boots fine, but if the
system's wonky I won't bother with it anymore).
Hi Scott,
I have a stock VAXstation 3100 m76 here, with fully functional external
SCSI and framebuffer.
I've just given up trying to get NetBSD installed onto it. Like you,
I encountered all kinds of segfaults trying to get it installed. It's
really frustrating, because NetBSD runs fine on my 3100 m30s!
I wonder if it's just something about the m76 that NetBSD is
particularly unhappy about.
-Seth
15 Jan
15 Jan
8:40 p.m.
Seth J. Morabito wrote:
On Sat, Jan 13, 2007 at 10:40:45AM -0800, Scott Quinn
wrote:
I have two /76's. I used to run NetBSD on my VAXen, but I stopped after
I discovered the joys of VAXclustering. My /76's run VMS just like a dream.
IMHO, there are better boxes out there to run NetBSD on.
Peace... Sridhar
Anyway-to the question: Neither NetBSD 2.0 or 3.0
will install
successfully. They both segfault, usually during install but once I got
3.0 installed and it was very limited functionality. Officially the
3176 is supported, but is NetBSD known to be tempermental? (I'm not
sure if it's the VAX or the software - VMS boots fine, but if the
system's wonky I won't bother with it anymore).
Hi Scott,
I have a stock VAXstation 3100 m76 here, with fully functional external
SCSI and framebuffer.
I've just given up trying to get NetBSD installed onto it. Like you,
I encountered all kinds of segfaults trying to get it installed. It's
really frustrating, because NetBSD runs fine on my 3100 m30s!
I wonder if it's just something about the m76 that NetBSD is
particularly unhappy about.
16 Jan
16 Jan
3:16 a.m.
On 16/1/07 01:40, "Sridhar Ayengar" <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote:
It's almost like they were *designed* to run that particular OS :o)
--
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?
I wonder if
it's just something about the m76 that NetBSD is
particularly unhappy about.
I have two /76's. I used to run NetBSD on my VAXen, but I stopped after
I discovered the joys of VAXclustering. My /76's run VMS just like a dream.
4:14 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 08:40:37PM -0500, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Seth J. Morabito wrote:
They do run VMS quite well! My only complaint is that my /76 is very
picky about drive brands, and it's getting very difficult to find < 2GB
SCSI drives these days (at least for reasonable prices).
(Wish I'd had the forethought to snag a few pallettes of 500MB, 1GB, and
2GB SCSI drives back in the '98 to '01 timeframe! Seems like everyone
was just giving them away back then.)
I wonder if it's just something about the m76
that NetBSD is
particularly unhappy about.
I have two /76's. I used to run NetBSD on my VAXen, but I stopped after
I discovered the joys of VAXclustering. My /76's run VMS just like a dream. Peace... Sridhar
-Seth
6397
days inactive
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16 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
arcarlini＠iee.org -
christer＠a-son.net -
classiccmp＠discordance.org.uk -
compoobah＠valleyimplants.com -
ploopster＠gmail.com -
sethm＠loomcom.com -
vax9000＠gmail.com -
williams.dan＠gmail.com -
witchy＠binarydinosaurs.co.uk