12 Dec
2001
12 Dec
'01
7:53 a.m.
Does anyone have a manual, or know how to operate, an
Everex digital
cassette drive?
The one I have is all black, and has a DC-37 connector on the back that I
assume connects to an old-style IBM PC drive interface. If this is the
case, I assume I still need drivers to run this thing? And maybe some
operating software?
An original IBM PC with the BASIC ROMs should be able to load
from cassette using LOAD and save using SAVE,
shouldn't it?
?
-dq
12 Dec
12 Dec
8:44 a.m.
On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote:
Maybe, but doubtful. This was more of a tape backup device. It uses
DIGITAL cassettes. If you've never seen one, they have a square notch
just off the center of the top of the cassette, and they have two slide
tabs to turn write-protection on/off. Otherwise, it looks just like a
regular analog cassette tape.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
Does anyone
have a manual, or know how to operate, an Everex digital
cassette drive?
The one I have is all black, and has a DC-37 connector on the back that I
assume connects to an old-style IBM PC drive interface. If this is the
case, I assume I still need drivers to run this thing? And maybe some
operating software?
An original IBM PC with the BASIC ROMs should be able to load
from cassette using LOAD and save using SAVE, shouldn't it? 
10:34 a.m.
> Does anyone have a manual, or know how to
operate, an Everex digital
> cassette drive?
> The one I have is all black, and has a DC-37 connector on the back that I
> assume connects to an old-style IBM PC drive interface. If this is the
> case, I assume I still need drivers to run this thing? And maybe some
> operating software?
On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote:
An original IBM PC with the BASIC ROMs should be able
to load
from cassette using LOAD and save using SAVE, shouldn't it?
Certainly not from THAT tape drive!
The PC (5150) tape interface (DIN-5 next to keyboard connector), is an
AUDIO interface, not digital, and not DC-37 (floppy drive connector)!
Although IBM (U.S.) never sold a cable for connecting, the pinout is close
enough to that of the TRS-80 to be able to use Radio Shacks cable.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
10:36 a.m.
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11:26 a.m.
> The PC (5150) tape interface (DIN-5 next to
keyboard connector), is an
> AUDIO interface, not digital, and not DC-37 (floppy drive connector)!
> Although IBM (U.S.) never sold a cable for connecting, the pinout is close
> enough to that of the TRS-80 to be able to use Radio Shacks cable.
On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
'close enough' == 'identical' :-)
True.
For an example of 'close enough' != 'identical' :
IIRC, The tech reference section on the joystick board has a drawing of
the joystick from the Radio Shack Coco. BUT, ... there is a slight
difference in whether the "far" side of the pots are floating v tied
together.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
13 Dec
13 Dec
4:37 a.m.
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8:41 a.m.
On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
However, I am not sure the picture in the TechRef is a
CoCo joystick. I
doubt that Radio Shack actually made their own joystick mechanisms, and
it's quite possible that the company that did also made them, differently
wired, for the PC.
In the U.S. at least, IBM NEVER had a joystick.
The drawing in the tech ref is definitely the same as the Coco one, but I
have no way of knowing whether they drew a Coco one, or drew one
by obtaining one from the same supplier who made them for Tandy.
9:16 a.m.
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10:07 a.m.
In the U.S. at
least, IBM NEVER had a joystick.
Did they ever sell one for the PC-jr? That machine had a 2 row header
plug for the joystick port, and it's not totally trivial to get a socket
that will fit it....
10:15 a.m.
On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
Did they
ever sell one for the PC-jr? That machine had a 2 row header
plug for the joystick port, and it's not totally trivial to get a socket
that will fit it....
IIRC the PC-jr joystick interface is identical electrically to the PC
one, so the same joystick mechanism would work with both machines. Maybe
that's the one IBM showed in the PC O&A TechRef.
1) I have never seen a joystick for the jr that had ANY resemblance in
appearance to it.
2) The TechRef in question was from 1981 (the original release of the PC
5150), LONG before the jr was even imagined.
I'm assuming that the drawing was intended to be a generic picture of a
joystick ("to be purchased after-market"), and that their artist simply
happened to use the RS one as a sample.
However, I am not sure the picture in the TechRef is a
CoCo joystick. I
In the U.S. at least, IBM NEVER had a joystick.
2:10 p.m.
On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
I'm assuming that the drawing was intended to be a
generic picture of
a joystick ("to be purchased after-market"), and that their artist
simply happened to use the RS one as a sample.
The IBM joystick is in fact a rebadged Tandy joystick.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
2:56 p.m.
On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote:
The IBM joystick is in fact a rebadged Tandy joystick.
Wow! How did I ever miss that?!?
You saw that I had almost everything from RS and IBM from that time
period. In the stuff that you got from me, there were some Tandy
joysticks that I recabled for PC, since that was all I could find!
I had LOOKED, and never found.
I had also cabled up some miscellaneous STUFF, such as trying to make a
crude color balance meter for darkroom color printing, out of photocells,
filters, and PC game controller.
4:05 p.m.
On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
Wow! How did I ever miss that?!?
I don't know. I've found at least several loose ones and actually many
more than that that are boxed (some still in shrinkwrap!) I must've hit
the IBM PC Joystick bonanza.
You saw that I had almost everything from RS and IBM
from that time
period. In the stuff that you got from me, there were some Tandy
joysticks that I recabled for PC, since that was all I could find! I
had LOOKED, and never found.
I vaguely recall those, but I'm sure they're there somewhere :)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
14 Dec
14 Dec
10:45 a.m.
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12:51 p.m.
On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
Ok, to be more accurate: it LOOKS like a re-badged Tandy joystick ;)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
The IBM
joystick is in fact a rebadged Tandy joystick.
I thought this thread started by somebody pointing out that there are
electical differences between the PC and CoCo joystick interfaces and
thus the pot wiring in the joystick (and for that matter the pot
resistance) is different.
So the IBM joystick can't be just a rebadged Tandy one.
15 Dec
15 Dec
5:35 a.m.
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17 Dec
17 Dec
6:09 a.m.
On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
I believe they are Kraft joysticks. I'll have to find one of each and
take pictures, and also open them up and document the components, just so
you two can go back to sleeping soundly at night ;)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
OK, it could
be a re-badged Tandy joystick housing and mechanical works
with slightly different pots and wiring.
Or more likely the Tandy and IBM joysticks were made by the same company
(I doubt that either IBM or Tandy made their own joysticks, after all).
Which, IIRC, was suggested several messages back.
19 Dec
19 Dec
4:50 p.m.
New subject: Kraft vs. IBM joystick innards comparison
On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote:
OK, it could be a re-badged Tandy joystick housing and mechanical works
with slightly different pots and wiring.
Ok, here is the scoop on these joysticks. I found an IBM badged one and a
Kraft badged one. The IBM one had a PCjr connector on the end. I don't
know if I have one for the IBM PC. In fact, I may have been mistaken and
premature in saying that I have one for the IBM PC. I think all the ones
I have may well be for the PCjr. I'll check tomorrow.
At any rate, here are pictures of each and their innards:
http://www.siconic.com/crap/joysticks/
The Kraft stick has pots labelled 365Z145K<ohm> and the IBM are
365Z100K<ohm>. There are also some capacitors (markings say 684Z) in
series with the pots and joystick buttons on the IBM stick that are not
present on the Kraft stick. So Tony's prediction as it were was right on.
Tony, as always, gets the award for Intimate Knowledge of Something No
Sane Person Should Have.
The Kraft joystick works on my Apple //e.
I found another IBM PCjr joystick today at a thrift store so I would
classify these as "uncommon".
BTW, these sticks can be configured for either self-centering or
free-floating. I'm too tired and lazy to describe the mechanism properly,
but basically there are these two tabs on the bottom of the stick (for
each axis) that catches an armature that is holding down the
self-centering spring inside. When you move the stick to a corner and
then flip the tab, it catches into a slot on the spring arm and allows the
stick to move around freely without the force from the spring pushing it
back to center. Very clever.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
So the
IBM joystick can't be just a rebadged Tandy one.
Ok, to be more accurate: it
LOOKS like a re-badged Tandy joystick ;)
20 Dec
20 Dec
6:25 a.m.
New subject: Kraft vs. IBM joystick innards comparison
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6:17 p.m.
New subject: Kraft vs. IBM joystick innards comparison
On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
Yes, those are the correct values as read from the pot. The IBM is 100K
and the Kraft is 145K.
I'll have to dig out my Tandy badged one and look into that now :)
The Kraft
stick has pots labelled 365Z145K<ohm> and the IBM are
365Z100K<ohm>. There are also some capacitors (markings say 684Z) in
I wonder if the 'IBM' pots are 100K and the 'Kraft' ones 145K. The latter
seems like a rather odd value... The Kraft
joystick works on my Apple //e.
Now that is supprising in a way. The Apple ][ joystick interface is
also electrically much the same as the PC one (it's based on a 558
quad timer chip, with the joystick pots as the timing resistors). I
would have thought the same joysticks (electrically) could be used on
both machines. Oh well. It's the CoCo that's the 'odd one out'....
And I hope your comment about me doesn't mean you
once thought I was
sane... Because AFAIK I've never been sane. Thankfully.
No, I pretty much figured you to be not sane from a very early age ;)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
21 Dec
21 Dec
11:15 a.m.
New subject: Kraft vs. IBM joystick innards comparison
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13 Dec
13 Dec
9:57 a.m.
On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
I can say with absolute certainty that there was an IBM branded joystick
both for the PC and the PCjr (with the appropriate connectors) as I have
both. And as far as I know, these came from the U.S.
:)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
However, I am not sure the picture in the TechRef
is a CoCo joystick. I
doubt that Radio Shack actually made their own joystick mechanisms, and
it's quite possible that the company that did also made them, differently
wired, for the PC.
In the U.S. at least, IBM NEVER had a joystick. The drawing in the
tech ref is definitely the same as the Coco one, but I have no way of
knowing whether they drew a Coco one, or drew one by obtaining one
from the same supplier who made them for Tandy.
10:23 a.m.
On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote:
I can say with absolute certainty that there was an
IBM branded joystick
both for the PC and the PCjr (with the appropriate connectors) as I have
both. And as far as I know, these came from the U.S.
Ah HA!
Did it physically resemble the Radio Shack Coco one and/or the drawing in
the early PC Tech Ref?
2:10 p.m.
On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote:
Yes and yes. And for good measure, yes.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
I can say with absolute certainty that there was
an IBM branded joystick
both for the PC and the PCjr (with the appropriate connectors) as I have
both. And as far as I know, these came from the U.S.
Ah HA!
Did it physically resemble the Radio Shack Coco one and/or the drawing in
the early PC Tech Ref?
14 Dec
14 Dec
10:14 a.m.
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8354
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25 comments
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ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
jhellige＠earthlink.net