26 Jan
2009
26 Jan
'09
11:13 p.m.
Hi, all,
I was cleaning up around the house and wanted to stash a Model 3 on
the shelf out of the way. Before I did, I fired it up to make sure it
(still) worked, and to try something I haven't tried before...
I have diskettes, c. 1982, from a friend lying around, so I booted it
into TRSDOS 1.3. All seems well. It claims to have 48K (internally
and according to the markings of the case and the memory report at
boot time), passes MEMTEST (which is on most/all of the TRSDOS disks),
it runs BASIC, and it starts a couple of binary games I found. What
it does not do is run Zork or Enchanter.
I have original Zork I and Enchanter disks. Booting up a backup of
the Zork disk gets me to a TRSDOS prompt. I can take a DIR and see
the program and the data file there. If I start Zork, the screen
blanks, the disk gronks and the access light blinks occasionally. I
hear what sounds like successive track seeks (which I'm expecting
since I know how Z-Machines work and roughly what virtual pages need
to be loaded to get a game started), but then after a few seconds
(less than 2 min), it sounds and looks like it's in a loop and repeats
the gronking and flashing. I never see anything on the screen except
for a blinking cursor. The Enchanter disk isn't much better - I think
it spins the disk and gronks for a bit, then goes quiet.
I'm posting because I am reasonably certain, due to age if nothing
else, that these are Model 1 diskettes. Enchanter is a flippy, with
an original Infocom label on both sides marked "side 1" and "side 2".
The Zork disk is a Personal Software release (I have the 8.5"x11"
manual, too, naturally), thus about as old as it gets for Infocom
products. I don't recall when the III came out, but Enchanter is one
of the older titles, along with Starcross and Zork, so sometime around
1982. The dates in the directory for the Zork disk are also 1982
(prior to the most commonly available release of the gamefile from
1983). The part I'm not sure of is if there would be any gotchas
trying to run software from 1981-1982 on a Model III or not.
Of course I can play these games on a variety of systems I have on
hand. I'm just trying to get this to start up to check gamefile
version numbers and to take a few turns at 27-year-old-machine speeds.
It's possible I have two different defective game disks, but it's
also likely that I'm attempting something out of naivete that a
die-hard TRS-80 user would immediately recognize as futile.
Thanks for any tips,
-ethan
27 Jan
27 Jan
1:07 a.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Model 1 vs Model III disk/application compatibility question
Ethan Dicks wrote:
I have original Zork I and Enchanter disks. Booting
up a backup of
the Zork disk gets me to a TRSDOS prompt. I can take a DIR and see
the program and the data file there. If I start Zork, the screen
blanks, the disk gronks and the access light blinks occasionally. I
hear what sounds like successive track seeks (which I'm expecting
since I know how Z-Machines work and roughly what virtual pages need
to be loaded to get a game started), but then after a few seconds
(less than 2 min), it sounds and looks like it's in a loop and repeats
the gronking and flashing. I never see anything on the screen except
for a blinking cursor. The Enchanter disk isn't much better - I think
it spins the disk and gronks for a bit, then goes quiet.
I'm posting because I am reasonably certain, due to age if nothing
else, that these are Model 1 diskettes. Enchanter is a flippy, with
an original Infocom label on both sides marked "side 1" and "side
2".
The Zork disk is a Personal Software release (I have the 8.5"x11"
manual, too, naturally), thus about as old as it gets for Infocom
products. I don't recall when the III came out, but Enchanter is one
of the older titles, along with Starcross and Zork, so sometime around
1982. The dates in the directory for the Zork disk are also 1982
(prior to the most commonly available release of the gamefile from
1983). The part I'm not sure of is if there would be any gotchas
trying to run software from 1981-1982 on a Model III or not.
The Model III was introduced in 1980, so a 1981 or 1982 date isn't a
problem. I don't know about Enchanter, but Zork I for the Model I
(catalog number 26-1950) and the Model III (catalog number 26-1951) were
separate products. Both were Personal Software releases and only the
appropriate disk was included with each package.
If you can boot your disk into TRSDOS, then you definitely have the
Model III version. No version of Model I TRSDOS was ever able to boot on
a Model III. Also, according to the Zork I manual, the Model I version
went directly to the game without stopping at any prompt.
What you describe sounds as though the boot loader is timing out after
failing to read a sector. That might be caused by bad disks or possibly
a drive problem. If you have two drives, you could try booting one of
your TRSDOS 1.3 disks and running Zork from the second drive instead.
--
Matthew Reed
http://www.trs-80.org
mkr at trs-80.org
7:14 p.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Model 1 vs Model III disk/application compatibility question
Hi, all,
I was cleaning up around the house and wanted to stash a Model 3 on
the shelf out of the way. Before I did, I fired it up to make sure it
(still) worked, and to try something I haven't tried before...
I have diskettes, c. 1982, from a friend lying around, so I booted it
into TRSDOS 1.3. All seems well. It claims to have 48K (internally
and according to the markings of the case and the memory report at
boot time), passes MEMTEST (which is on most/all of the TRSDOS disks),
it runs BASIC, and it starts a couple of binary games I found. What
it does not do is run Zork or Enchanter.
I have original Zork I and Enchanter disks. Booting up a backup of
the Zork disk gets me to a TRSDOS prompt. I can take a DIR and see
the program and the data file there. If I start Zork, the screen
blanks, the disk gronks and the access light blinks occasionally. I
hear what sounds like successive track seeks (which I'm expecting
since I know how Z-Machines work and roughly what virtual pages need
to be loaded to get a game started), but then after a few seconds
(less than 2 min), it sounds and looks like it's in a loop and repeats
the gronking and flashing. I never see anything on the screen except
for a blinking cursor. The Enchanter disk isn't much better - I think
it spins the disk and gronks for a bit, then goes quiet.
I'm posting because I am reasonably certain, due to age if nothing
else, that these are Model 1 diskettes. Enchanter is a flippy, with
As far as I rememebr, a Model 3 will not boot any Model 1 disk (or of
course vice versa). There have been disks that were made to boot on both
machines, by having a mixture of single and double density sectors on the
boot cylinder IIRC, but no nornmal OS will boot that way.
So the fact that the disks boot to a TRS-DOS prompt implies they're M3 disks.
I have Zork 1 for my Model 1. It was a self-booting disk, no TRS-DOS or
similar. And it was copy-protected (nothing that SuperUtility couldn't
manage :-)). So again, it sounds like you have a Model 3 version,
Since the system will boot other disks and run other programs, I susepct
either an unreadable sector on these games disks or something marginal in
the disk drive or disk controller.
Have you tried to make a ackup of Zork and/or Enchanter? If so, do the
backups behave inthe same way?
-tony
8:02 p.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Model 1 vs Model III disk/application compatibility question
On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 2:14 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
OK. That makes sense and answers one question I had.
Hi, all,
I was cleaning up around the house and wanted to stash a Model 3 on
the shelf out of the way....
I have diskettes, c. 1982, from a friend lying around, so I booted it
into TRSDOS 1.3.... What it does not do is run Zork or Enchanter.
I have original Zork I and Enchanter disks. Booting up a backup of
the Zork disk gets me to a TRSDOS prompt. I can take a DIR and see
the program and the data file there...
As far as I rememebr, a Model 3 will not boot any Model 1 disk (or of
course vice versa). So the fact that the disks boot to a TRS-DOS prompt
implies they're M3 disks.
I wouldn't be surprised that all but one diskette I have is for the M3.
I have Zork 1 for my Model 1. It was a self-booting
disk, no TRS-DOS or
similar. And it was copy-protected (nothing that SuperUtility couldn't
manage :-)). So again, it sounds like you have a Model 3 version,
I have a hand-lettered "Zork Backup" disk that boots to TRS-DOS. I also
have a commercial original that does not boot. That one is probably for
the M1.
Since the system will boot other disks and run other
programs, I susepct
either an unreadable sector on these games disks or something marginal in
the disk drive or disk controller.
I would guess a bad sector on the game disks, since I have loaded over a dozen
programs from other disks successfully. Since someone did ask, I did try to
boot drive 0 and run Zork from drive 1. The only change was that the lights
had a slightly different cadence to them (since there are two drives), but it
looped endlessly and wordlessly all the same.
Have you tried to make a ackup of Zork and/or
Enchanter? If so, do the
backups behave inthe same way?
I have not yet tried to make backups. I have all the docs so backups should
be not difficult to do once I dig out a box of SSSD blanks from the back of the
closet.
One thing I'm not sure of with the Enchanter original is that since
it's marked "side 1"
and "side 2", but I don't have the box or the box insert, I can't tell
what platform it's for.
It _is_ marked "TRS-80", but I don't recall seeing a model number
mentioned on the
label. The Zork game file is somewhere between about 70K-85K. Enchanter is
almost certainly over 80K (I'd have to find a copy to check), so I guess I'm not
surprised to see that it overflows one side of a TRS-80 SSSD disk, but I am
unfamiliar with where they might have split things. Does anyone else on the
list have TRS-80 versions of early Infocom titles? The rest of my originals are
Amiga, PC, Mac, Atari ST, Atari 800, and C-64, so I have no experience
with TRS-80
versions.
-ethan
9:10 p.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Model 1 vs Model III disk/application compatibility
As far as I
rememebr, a Model 3 will not boot any Model 1 disk (or of
course vice versa).
OK. That makes sense and answers one question I had. I have not yet tried to make backups. I have all the
docs so backups should
be not difficult to do once I dig out a box of SSSD blanks from the back of the
closet.
Actually, the M3 has a double-density disk controller (1793 IIRC), and by
defualt it used double-density encoding on the disks. It can do single
density as well, though (although, IIRC, TRS-DOS 1.3 uses double density
only). So you want SSDD or DSDD blank disks. The sort of disks that are
called '360K' on a PC work fine.
Again, IRIC, TRS-DOS 1.3 pretty much restircts you to 40 tracks
single-sided. Other OSes let you do anything the drives are capable of.
One thing I'm not sure of with the Enchanter
original is that since
it's marked "side 1"
and "side 2", but I don't have the box or the box insert, I can't tell
I assume this is a 'flippy' disk.
what platform it's for.
It _is_ marked "TRS-80", but I don't recall seeing a model number
mentioned on the
label. The Zork game file is somewhere between about 70K-85K. Enchanter is
almost certainly over 80K (I'd have to find a copy to check), so I guess I'm not
surprised to see that it overflows one side of a TRS-80 SSSD disk, but I am
The M3 is double density, with about 180K per side. Not all of that space
is avaiallbe for user programs, of course.
-tony
28 Jan
28 Jan
12:33 a.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Model 1 vs Model III disk/application compatibility
Tony Duell wrote:
IIRc, the Model 3 can physically read any M1 disk,
although it can't
necessarily write them (The M1 used one of the 1771's 'extra' data markers
on the directory cylinder, which later disk cotnrollers couldn't write).
I cn't rememebr about OS compatibility -- LDOS, which is what I mostly
use can read M1 TRS-DOS or LDOS disks on a model 3, but I have an idea
TRS-DOS won't. And binary programs generally won't run on the other
machine -- almost all the OS routines changed their addresses :-(
The Model III versions of LDOS, DOSPLUS, MULTIDOS, and NEWDOS/80 could
all read Model I TRSDOS disks. Model III TRSDOS 1.3 couldn't read them
directly, but it did come with a conversion utility.
Most programs written after the introduction of the Model III worked on
both computers. There were some programs with separate versions, but
they tended to be low-level utilities or self-booting games. Programs
written before the Model III was introduced were another story.
--
Matthew Reed
http://www.trs-80.org
mkr at trs-80.org
7:15 p.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Model 1 vs Model III disk/application compatibility
The Model III versions of LDOS, DOSPLUS, MULTIDOS, and
NEWDOS/80 could
all read Model I TRSDOS disks. Model III TRSDOS 1.3 couldn't read them
directly, but it did come with a conversion utility.
Right. I never really used TRS-DOS on my M3. By the time I'd got it, I
was running LDOS on my M1, and anything else was a disapointment :-). So
of course I got LDOS for the M3 as well. And of course had no problems
making disks that could be read on either machine.
Most programs written after the introduction of the Model III worked on
both computers. There were some programs with separate versions, but
Hmmm... Some of the Radio Shack software packages included disks for both
machines, but he programs on them were not quite the same (they were
probably uilt from the same sourve with a few conditionals, but they
weren't the same binaries). And I have a couple of such packages that are
Model 3 only.
-tony
29 Jan
29 Jan
3:24 a.m.
New subject: TRS-80 Model 1 vs Model III disk/application compatibility
Tony Duell wrote:
Hmmm... Some of the Radio Shack software packages
included disks for both
machines, but he programs on them were not quite the same (they were
probably uilt from the same sourve with a few conditionals, but they
weren't the same binaries). And I have a couple of such packages that are
Model 3 only.
That's a good point. Radio Shack continued to target their Model III
software for TRSDOS 1.3. In addition to its unique disk format, TRSDOS
1.3 made a number of changes to the function calls (expanding FCB's from
32 to 50 bytes, for example). Fortunately, the other Model III operating
systems ignored most of the weirder differences.
But it was fairly easy to write a program that worked on both the Model
I and III (having written a number of such programs myself). Only a few
of the commonly used addresses were different, and a small routine could
take care of them. There were some programs that were Model III only,
but most also supported the Model I as that market was too large to ignore.
--
Matthew Reed
http://www.trs-80.org
mkr at trs-80.org
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7 comments
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