22 Jun
2000
22 Jun
'00
3:51 a.m.
Good Morning, Fellow Classicians...
A MicroPDP 11/73 (that's how it's listed) is available on
E-Bay, it's not selling, so I can probably get it for the
starting bid of five bucks, and it's local. I have no
backround with the PDP-11 (and thus my recent query
regarding those cards I have).
It comes with a TS05 tape drive, which from the photo
appears to be a Cipher F880 Microstreamer. I'm thinking
of getting it just to have a spare for the Prime's tape
drive.
Here is what the seller has to say about it:
: This is a Digital Equipment Corp Micro PDP11/73 computer
: with a TS05 tape drive mounted in a rack. Also included is
: what I think is a hard disk unit mounted below the computer.
: The front panel of this unit says 'USDC CSS-800 Compact
: Storage System'. Also included is a VT320 amber video
: terminal. If you look at the photos below you will see that
: there is a large space in the middle where something is
: missing. I think that there were 2 hard disks mounted in this
: space, but they were gone when I got the equipment. I bought
: this stuff from the University of Louisville Medical School.
: This is one part of a larger system. I have powered the
: PDP11/73 up and it seems to boot up OK. When booted, this
: is what come up on the screen: Testing in progress - Please
: wait 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Starting ROM boot 173356 @ I think
: the '@' is a command prompt, but I don't know what to do
: from there. The CSS-800 unit has lights that come on in the
: front, and so does the tape drive, but I have no way to test
: them. I can't be sure if this equipment is working properly, so
: it is sold AS-IS.
:
:
Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need to acquire for it?
Thanks for all replys,
-doug quebbeman
22 Jun
22 Jun
4:19 a.m.
For under 50$ yes!!!!
As to the OS... Long list to follow...;)
From DEC:
RT-11
RSTS-11
RSX-11
(rare) Ultrix-11
Non-DEC
Fuzzball
TSX-11 (requires RT-11)
FROM PUPS archives
Unix from V5-->2.11 or later.
To name just a few that were available for that machine. Many have
Licenses for use but do check out PUPS as most of those are free.
Allison
On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote:
Good Morning, Fellow Classicians...
A MicroPDP 11/73 (that's how it's listed) is available on
E-Bay, it's not selling, so I can probably get it for the
starting bid of five bucks, and it's local. I have no
backround with the PDP-11 (and thus my recent query
regarding those cards I have).
It comes with a TS05 tape drive, which from the photo
appears to be a Cipher F880 Microstreamer. I'm thinking
of getting it just to have a spare for the Prime's tape
drive.
Here is what the seller has to say about it:
: This is a Digital Equipment Corp Micro PDP11/73 computer
: with a TS05 tape drive mounted in a rack. Also included is
: what I think is a hard disk unit mounted below the computer.
: The front panel of this unit says 'USDC CSS-800 Compact
: Storage System'. Also included is a VT320 amber video
: terminal. If you look at the photos below you will see that
: there is a large space in the middle where something is
: missing. I think that there were 2 hard disks mounted in this
: space, but they were gone when I got the equipment. I bought
: this stuff from the University of Louisville Medical School.
: This is one part of a larger system. I have powered the
: PDP11/73 up and it seems to boot up OK. When booted, this
: is what come up on the screen: Testing in progress - Please
: wait 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Starting ROM boot 173356 @ I think
: the '@' is a command prompt, but I don't know what to do
: from there. The CSS-800 unit has lights that come on in the
: front, and so does the tape drive, but I have no way to test
: them. I can't be sure if this equipment is working properly, so
: it is sold AS-IS.
:
:
Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need to acquire for it?
Thanks for all replys,
-doug quebbeman
7:29 a.m.
On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:51:17PM +0200, Frederik Meerwaldt wrote:
Hi!
[..]
Since when is/was RT-11 freeware? One of the hardest things about collecting
PDP-11s is getting OS licenses for anything but the older versions of
UNIX...
Bill
--
+-------------------\ /-----------------+
| Bill Bradford | www.sunhelp.org |
| mrbill(a)mrbill.net | www.decvax.org |
| Austin, Texas USA | www.pdp11.org |
+-------------------/ \-----------------+
Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need
to acquire for it?
Sure!!! I don't know if 4.2BSD or 4.3BSD run on a PDP11/73,
but in fact
RT-11 does. It is now Freeware.
Ciao,
Freddy 
9:38 a.m.
On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Bill Bradford wrote:
Since when is/was RT-11 freeware? One of the hardest
things about collecting
PDP-11s is getting OS licenses for anything but the older versions of
UNIX...
Well, as long as the machine comes with a complete version of the
software installed, then there's no problem. The whole licensing
issue is pure lunacy. Someone initially paid a vast quantity of money
to Some Random Computer Manufacturer for the machine, then, got
charged another large sum of money for the software - the OS - needed
to use the machine. Both were products that have already been paid
for. Let's say you bought one of those newfangled automobiles that's
infested with lots of electronic circuitry, including computers with
firmware. Now, let's say you sell the car. If that firmware was
licensed like computer software, the person who bought the car from
you wouldn't be able to use it without being bilked out of a licencing
fee from the auto's manufacturer. What if books were treated like
software? This is just a way of extorting money from people; it
amounts to no more than legalized theft.
--
R. D. Davis
rdd(a)perqlogic.com
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd
410-744-4900
10 a.m.
Pico rant:
I can't believe that there isn't a legal way to transfer
purchased software N users to users = N without more
liscencing fees. It's like saying the seller really didn't
own it at the time of sale.
John A.
10:22 a.m.
If you read the license of most software you will find that it says You
don't own it and that "you" are licensed to use it. Cars are bought
outright IE: they are property. Software for the most part is "rented"
for lack of a better word.
Allison
On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote:
Pico rant:
I can't believe that there isn't a legal way to transfer
purchased software N users to users = N without more
liscencing fees. It's like saying the seller really didn't
own it at the time of sale.
John A.
10:31 a.m.
On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 03:00:42PM -0400, John Allain wrote:
I can't believe that there isn't a legal way
to transfer
purchased software N users to users = N without more
liscencing fees. It's like saying the seller really didn't
own it at the time of sale.
Well, technically they didn't. You buy the *right* to use the software,
and since that's not a tangible thing it's a bit hard to pin down how to
transfer it. Most software companies aren't so snotty about taking advantage
of that fact, but DEC went through a phase (in the early 80s) where they
decided that you couldn't transfer software licenses at *all*, so now we're
supposed to be grateful that they relented and agreed you could do it, if
you had $300 and a bunch of documentation that probably never existed and
certainly doesn't any more. I think it was supposed to work like the New
Coke thing, threaten us with something so bad, that we won't complain (at
least not loudly) when they drop back to something which is still not what
the customers want.
Microsoft has been jumping on the same bandwagon lately, unilaterally censoring
eBay auctions for M$ software if there's any possibility, in Microsoft's
opinion, that the seller doesn't own a transferable license for the software.
John Wilson
D Bit
10:35 a.m.
Pico rant:
I can't believe that there isn't a legal way to transfer
purchased software N users to users = N without more
liscencing fees. It's like saying the seller really didn't
own it at the time of sale.
Just wait for http://www.macintouch.com/ucita.html
11:16 a.m.
On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, John Allain wrote:
I can't believe that there isn't a legal way
to transfer
purchased software N users to users = N without more
liscencing fees. It's like saying the seller really didn't
own it at the time of sale.
You didn't own it, you were just licensing it. Read the fine print.
Sure it sucks, but you can either abide by it or scoff at it.
Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
Coming soon: VCF 4.0!
VCF East: Planning in Progress
See http://www.vintage.org for details!
12:17 p.m.
Hi!
Since when is/was RT-11 freeware? One of the hardest things about collecting
Don't know since when, but it is. I found it on many FTP-Sites, and I
asked around in Compaq (this time DEC), and they said, they made it freely
accessible.
Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need to
acquire for it?
Sure!!! I don't know if 4.2BSD or 4.3BSD run on a PDP11/73, but
in fact
RT-11 does. It is now Freeware.
Ciao,
Freddy PDP-11s is getting OS licenses for anything but the
older versions of
UNIX...
Hmmm... Then you should try the PUPS archive I think it is called. You get
a license for it for free.
Ciao,
Freddy
1:13 p.m.
Since when
is/was RT-11 freeware? One of the hardest things about collecting
Don't know since when, but it is. I found it on many FTP-Sites, and I
asked around in Compaq (this time DEC), and they said, they made it freely
accessible.
Ciao,
Freddy from MENTEC or any product produced directly from the
SOFTWARE
TECHNOLOGY.
7.4 The waiver of a breach hereunder may be effected only by a writing
signed by the waiving party and shall not constitute a waiver of any
other breach.
7.5 CUSTOMER acknowledges that he has read this Agreement, understands
it and agrees to be bound by its terms and further agrees that it is
the complete and exclusive statement of the Agreement between the
parties which supersedes all communications and understanding between
the parties relating to the subject matter of this Agreement.
4:14 p.m.
On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 healyzh(a)aracnet.com wrote:
NO. RT-11 is most definitly NOT FREEWARE!!! Read the
*License* that is
with the versions of RT-11 that you will find out on the net! You will
learn that it is available with the following restrictions:
1. Only for use with Bob Supnik's emulator (actualy DEC owned
emulators)!
This is not a problem. One just has to make sure that one has a
system in one's collection running Bob Subnik's emulator attached to
one's real PDP-11s. Have the one with the emulator monitoring
something on the real PDP-11 systems, or somesuch, then, you ARE using
the versions of RT-11 on the real PDP-11s with Bob Supnik's emulator.
:-) :-) :-)
AGAIN RT-11 IS NOT FREEWARE!!! Furthermore, claiming
such could damage
efforts to get a hobbyist license in place that will allow hobbyists to run
RT-11 on thier hardware.
Ok, let's not make a big deal out of people using RT-11 on their
systems. If they don't have a copy, someone will probably clone them
a copy. No big deal, and DEC didn't care. I was actually told, by
someone in customer service at DEC, to go ahead and use it and not
worry about the license, a few years back, and, when a very pleasant
chap from DEC field service came to my house to investigate a melted
mains plug, no questions were asked.
Note, the existing Hobbyist License, which as I've
stated can only be used
with Bob Supnik's emulator, also covers some of the other OS's. It also
covers layered products.
MENTEC grants to CUSTOMER a worldwide, non-exclusive,
royalty-free
license under MENTEC's INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS to use and copy the
SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY solely for personal, non-commercial uses in
conjunction with the EMULATOR.
There, _in conjunction with the EMULATOR_ - it doesn't say to only use
it with the emulator, but in conjunction with the emulator.
Also, that bit about the license being revocable; that's probably as
binding as a contract of ashesion. Let's say you spend a huge amount
of time on writing some software to control various things around your
house that runs under RT-11; you most likely have a right to continue
using your software running under RT-11.
--
R. D. Davis
rdd(a)perqlogic.com
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd
410-744-4900
7:46 a.m.
On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Frederik Meerwaldt wrote:
Ah, 4.xBSD is 32bit(VAX) as far as I know and PDP11 is 16 bit(NOTVAX).
When did RT-11 become freeware? Last I knew it was available for use
exclusively for the emulator.
Allison
Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need to acquire for it?
Sure!!! I don't know if 4.2BSD or 4.3BSD run on a PDP11/73, but in fact
RT-11 does. It is now Freeware.
Ciao,
Freddy 
8:14 a.m.
On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 allisonp(a)world.std.com wrote:
When did RT-11 become freeware? Last I knew it was
available for use
exclusively for the emulator.
The original poster was mistaken. RT-11 is not freeware, and currently
the "freely available" RT-11 distributions are indeed only (legally)
usable with the Supnik emulator.
Mentec is apparently working on some type of "Hobbyist Licensing", but it
isn't ready yet - a link for this appears on the Mentec home page, but
currently, it does not go anywhere.
--Pat.
2:19 p.m.
Douglas Quebbeman wrote:
A MicroPDP 11/73 (that's how it's listed) is
available on
E-Bay, it's not selling, so I can probably get it for the
starting bid of five bucks, and it's local. I have no
backround with the PDP-11 (and thus my recent query
regarding those cards I have).
Jerome Fine replies:
Since you are local and will not have to pay shipping, you
have a huge advantage when it comes to anyone else.
BUT, you will need to have a van or a small truck. And
bring some tools so that you can separate the components.
You will find it much easier if you only need to lift one item
at a time rather than the whole cabinet. Note that the tape
drive alone can be about 100 lb. Two people can usually
handle that easily.
It comes with a TS05 tape drive, which from the photo
appears to be a Cipher F880 Microstreamer. I'm thinking
of getting it just to have a spare for the Prime's tape
drive.
If it is working or you can fix it yourself, that will be a great find
IF ou have an opportunity to actually use the drive, and especially
if you need it.
[Snip]
: This is one part of a larger system. I have powered the
: PDP11/73 up and it seems to boot up OK. When booted, this
: is what come up on the screen: Testing in progress - Please
: wait 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Starting ROM boot 173356 @ I think
: the '@' is a command prompt, but I don't know what to do
: from there. The CSS-800 unit has lights that come on in the
: front, and so does the tape drive, but I have no way to test
: them. I can't be sure if this equipment is working properly, so
: it is sold AS-IS.
This part is a bit confusing. Normally, after the "...7 8 9", the system
says if I remember it correctly: "Starting system", but that can be
modified using the boot options on the 11/73 CPU board - which
must be a quad M8190 based on the display. If the CPU board
works, it is worth $ US 5 just by itself.
Should I rescue this machine? What OS do I need to
acquire for it?
I think that Allison covered the ground. If you need help with RT-11,
there are a lot of us here.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
4:41 p.m.
On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Jerome Fine wrote:
Since you are local and will not have to pay shipping,
you
have a huge advantage when it comes to anyone else.
BUT, you will need to have a van or a small truck. And
Also, it can all be moved in two trips with a mid-sized station-wagon
(e.g. - a Gran Torino)... well, possibly one if you really squeezed
the stuff in there.
If it's at all windy, or even a little breezy, be careful with those
rack side panels, as they can go flying into something rather easily.
bring some tools so that you can separate the
components.
At a minimum: assorted screwdrivers, vice grips, nut-drivers,
nose-pincher pliers, torx screwdrivers, wire-cutter for emergencies,
penknife, pen, notebook, zip-lock bag for screws and nuts, paper and
tape to label wires and connectors, a double-bagged paper
grocery-store bag to put various odds and ends in and pair of
gardening gloves.
Note: ask for any tapes, documentation, etc. as soon as possible, not
another trip, if possible, as such things tend to get lost or tossed
out quickly after the system goes away or gets unplugged.
You will find it much easier if you only need to lift
one item at a
time rather than the whole cabinet. Note that the tape drive alone
can be about 100 lb. Two people can usually handle that easily.
Several years ago, I disassembled, moved, and reassembled an entire
11/73 rack myself, including the TS05 tape drive, expansion chasis,
two 8" SMD drives, etc. Just be careful to lift with the knees and
not the back. Of course, it would be a lot easier with two people,
and much more pleasant a task with the temperatures in the 50s. :-)
If it is working or you can fix it yourself, that will
be a great find
IF ou have an opportunity to actually use the drive, and especially
if you need it.
Most definitely! :-)
--
R. D. Davis
rdd(a)perqlogic.com
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd
410-744-4900
8802
days inactive
8802
days old
16 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
allisonp＠world.std.com -
dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jhfine＠idirect.com -
John.Allain＠donnelley.infousa.com -
Meerwaldt＠t-online.de -
mikeford＠socal.rr.com -
mrbill＠mrbill.net -
pat＠transarc.ibm.com -
rdd＠smart.net -
wilson＠dbit.dbit.com