14 Dec
2001
14 Dec
'01
8:32 p.m.
Guys,
This argument always comes up every few months on the video game collecting
newsgroups that I'm a member of.
Here we go....
How do you think the boards were cleaned by the manufacturer?
Boardwashers!!!!! (big versions of dishwashers - usually with conveyors for
constant operation)
I've been employed by two different electronic test equipment
manufacturers, and have consulted a bunch more regarding quality control
and calibration of electronic test equipment.
EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM USES WATER TO CLEAN THE BOARDS.
No shit.
Depending on the type of equipment that is being produced, some may use
distilled water, others filtered water, some use "deionized" water.
But it's still water. Hot water.
I clean all of my computers, upright video games, and all of the boards
from my two 11/780's and one PDP-11/34A in the
dishwasher. No damage yet,
after several YEARS of doing this. I've put
high-voltage power supplies,
low voltage power supplies, floppy disk drives, CPU boards and everything
else in the wash. What doesn't fit in the dishwasher gets blasted with 409
and hot water in the tub.
Here's the secrets to doing this right:
1) Do not use any detergents. NONE.
2) Turn off the plate warming and drying cycles. The heating elements in
the washer can distort or damage plastics.
3) Remove soon after cycle is complete. Do not let items sit overnight.
Shake off water.
4) Stand up or hang to dry.
5) Let items dry inside the house for several days. I usually don't touch
washed items for at least 3-4 days.
6) Don't plug the item in to power of any form until step #5 has completed.
For delicate items, I use water from the sink at a low flow rate, and spray
a mixture of 409 and water onto the item and allow it to soak for a few
minutes before rinsing. I may use a soft paintbrush to clean stubborn dirt
if necessary. Rinse and repeat.
I know that a good percentage of you are skeptical. Every one of my games
in my arcade collection had at least the CPU boardset in the dishwasher.
Several others had every single board through the wash. All of them work,
and did so before going into the dishwasher and immediately after drying.
Others had the monitors powerwashed. I took an entire 11/780 out into my
driveway and I powerwashed the chassis AND backplane!
Don't take my word for it; take a board that you know is operational, of
little value to you, test it out, and run it through the dishwasher using
the steps outlined above. After a few days of drying, test it out. It'll
work. And - I severely doubt that you get it any cleaner using any other
method.
Of course, don't wash the boards with your regular load of plates and
pots..... : )
- Matt
At 10:25 PM 12/14/2001 -0800, you wrote:
On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote:
Matthew Sell
Programmer
On Time Support, Inc.
www.ontimesupport.com
(281) 296-6066
Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST!
http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler
Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er...
But first I need to give this thing a good
cleaning.
Why?
A friend
has assured me that there's nothing better than the dishwasher,
with the exception of big capacitors and, what about magnetic
core memory?
I am appalled that anyone would seriously consider putting any electronic
equipment, much less antiques, in a dishwasher.
It may be alright to (gently!) vaccuum away dust and deteriorated foam
rubber, although a feather duster may be more appropriate. I would not
risk anything else, and certainly not insert anything (including water or
alcohol) under the plexiglass shield protecting the core.
A damp cloth with perhaps a bit of soap to the exterior surfaces of the
case is probably all you really need, but be sure not to let any liquid
seep into the inerior.
-- Mark --
http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. 
14 Dec
14 Dec
8:59 p.m.
I use the dishwasher to clean computers too, but what about core
memory? I've never handled it myself, but I understand it is quite
delicate.... any special handling needed?
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Matthew Sell wrote:
Guys,
This argument always comes up every few months on the video game collecting
newsgroups that I'm a member of.
Here we go....
10 p.m.
On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote:
I use the dishwasher to clean computers too, but what
about core
memory? I've never handled it myself, but I understand it is quite
delicate.... any special handling needed?
I asked and was told not to clean the core, that whatever junk gets stuck
in there wou't hurt the core's operation. Maybe it's time for round 2 of
the discussion.
What if something in that dust is conductive?
What if something in that dust has wierd magnetic properties?
What if that dust interferes with the core's cooling?
What if I slowly dipped the core board into a pan of IPA or distilled
water, then slowly lifted it out, and repeated until the core board was
clean?
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
10:41 p.m.
On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote:
The problem with cleaning core isn't that it's sensitive to water. It's
that it's really easy to break the little wires.
Peace... Sridhar
I use the dishwasher to clean computers too, but
what about core
memory? I've never handled it myself, but I understand it is quite
delicate.... any special handling needed?
I asked and was told not to clean the core, that whatever junk gets stuck
in there wou't hurt the core's operation. Maybe it's time for round 2 of
the discussion.
What if something in that dust is conductive?
What if something in that dust has wierd magnetic properties?
What if that dust interferes with the core's cooling?
What if I slowly dipped the core board into a pan of IPA or distilled
water, then slowly lifted it out, and repeated until the core board was
clean?
15 Dec
15 Dec
4:34 a.m.
I've never seen core in real life...... how small are the wires?
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Boatman on the River of Suck wrote:
The problem with cleaning core isn't that it's
sensitive to water. It's
that it's really easy to break the little wires.
Peace... Sridhar
2:51 p.m.
I've never seen core in real life...... how small
are the wires?
I've seen cores as small as 1/3mm OD. Through the ID
then goes as many as three wires. Perhaps smaller
than 1/12mm for the wires. Older core boards would
have larger cores, some even bigger than 2MM.
I have a Question for the other core users out there:
How would I test-signal a board, for demos, that is
just a core frame, IE one sacrificed from its stack
and sold at the e- flea market?
So it's almost like cloth, but made of wire?
Wire "cloth" with a ferrite metal "washer" (the core)
at every x-y crossing of the "threads", then one additional
'thread' snaked through.
John A.
6:58 a.m.
Chad,
I probably would not use a dishwasher on core memory because of the
rotating jets that are used for cleaning.
I'd handwash 'em - prpbably not using any brushes or such. Just lightly
mist with cleaner and carefully rinse.
- Matt
At 02:59 AM 12/15/2001 -0500, you wrote:
I use the dishwasher to clean computers too, but what
about core
memory? I've never handled it myself, but I understand it is quite
delicate.... any special handling needed?
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Matthew Sell wrote:
>
> Guys,
>
> This argument always comes up every few months on the video game collecting
> newsgroups that I'm a member of.
>
> Here we go....
Matthew Sell
Programmer
On Time Support, Inc.
www.ontimesupport.com
(281) 296-6066
Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST!
http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler
Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er...
14 Dec
14 Dec
9:37 p.m.
On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Matthew Sell wrote:
How do you think the boards were cleaned by the
manufacturer?
Boardwashers!!!!! (big versions of dishwashers - usually with conveyors for
constant operation)
<snip>
Don't take my word for it; take a board that you
know is operational, of
little value to you, test it out, and run it through the dishwasher using
the steps outlined above. After a few days of drying, test it out. It'll
work. And - I severely doubt that you get it any cleaner using any other
method.
I've washed box after box of boards after the flood we had in Houston back
in June. Some boards went thru a dishwasher 8-10 times before they were
totally clean. Most of the boards went thru a cycle with a half cup of
bleach and a cup of 'washing soda' (made by Arm & Hammer) to kill bacteria
and other nasty stuff that they were contaminated with. Some boards even
needed a scrubbing with baking soda and a *very* soft plastic brush. So
far, every single board I salvaged has worked after completely cleaning
it. Nearly all switching power supplies were fried, all due to the fact
they were powered up when hit by flood water. If boards full of surface
mount chips can survive this kind of abuse, there is no reason a board
populated with tons of dips or other components can not safely be washed
in a dishwasher.
A good many systems brought to me for salvage/rescue were located in the
basement shown in this page:
http://www.uthouston.edu/FORMEDIA/NEWSRELEASES/NR2001/MSB-FLOOD-story.HTM
Those boxes had been under 20 feet of water for a week and a half or
longer, and so far have been the most dirty and disgusting systems I've
ever salvaged.
If you want to see other images of just how bad the flood was overall,
this page has quite a few photos:
http://www.iisrp.com/Theismann/2001-Flood/houston-flood-of-2001.htm
-Toth
9:53 p.m.
On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Matthew Sell wrote:
I know that a good percentage of you are skeptical.
Every one of my
games in my arcade collection had at least the CPU boardset in the
dishwasher. Several others had every single board through the wash.
All of them work, and did so before going into the dishwasher and
immediately after drying. Others had the monitors powerwashed. I took
an entire 11/780 out into my driveway and I powerwashed the chassis
AND backplane!
I thought we weren't supposed to use the dishwasher on anything with
capacitors.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
10:39 p.m.
On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Matthew Sell wrote:
It's fine, as long as the capacitors aren't charged.
Peace... Sridhar
I know that a good percentage of you are
skeptical. Every one of my
games in my arcade collection had at least the CPU boardset in the
dishwasher. Several others had every single board through the wash.
All of them work, and did so before going into the dishwasher and
immediately after drying. Others had the monitors powerwashed. I took
an entire 11/780 out into my driveway and I powerwashed the chassis
AND backplane!
I thought we weren't supposed to use the dishwasher on anything with
capacitors.
15 Dec
15 Dec
7:12 a.m.
Jeffrey,
I personally don't wash large capacitors. Maybe critical paper capacitors -
if they were used as the basis for an oscillator that had to have a tight
frequency range. Usually these capacitors are found in radios, and usually
there are means for readjustment.
I don't make a habit of washing big filter capacitors - I just replace
them. Usually they are found in heavy-duty power supplies and after twenty
years of use are ready for the trashcan. They get removed, the board goes
into the dishwasher with it's brothers, and a new capacitor gets installed.
My video games get the same treatment. For example - I have a Lunar Lander
that needs the 5v filter capacitor replaced. It was made in 1979, so it's
22 years old. When playing, and you give it full thrust, the rumbling
thrusting sound causes the 5v supply to drop to about 4.7 volts and you can
hear a distinct 60Hz power line "hum" in the speaker. The capacitor is shot
- it's a chronic problem in early Atari games.
I'd consider this when firing up an old computer and you get strange, silly
behavior. Put your voltmeter into "AC" mode, and check the AC voltage on
the various DC supplies. If you get 1/4 volt (250 millivolts) or more of AC
"ripple" on the DC supply, the power supply needs repair. Probably one of
those big filter "caps" needs to be replaced. Such an excessive ripple on
the DC supplies to the computer could very easily cause it to go wacko and
give erronious results, claim that 1 + 1 = 7, etc., etc.
The video game collecting guys sometimes will go bonkers troubleshooting
logic problems for days, before they realize that the filter capacitor on
one of the power supplies is shot and causing the game to act silly.
- Matt
At 02:53 AM 12/15/2001 -0600, you wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Matthew Sell wrote:
Matthew Sell
Programmer
On Time Support, Inc.
www.ontimesupport.com
(281) 296-6066
Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST!
http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler
Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er...
I know that a good percentage of you are
skeptical. Every one of my
games in my arcade collection had at least the CPU boardset in the
dishwasher. Several others had every single board through the wash.
All of them work, and did so before going into the dishwasher and
immediately after drying. Others had the monitors powerwashed. I took
an entire 11/780 out into my driveway and I powerwashed the chassis
AND backplane!
I thought we weren't supposed to use the dishwasher on anything with
capacitors.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com 
5:27 a.m.
Matthew Sell wrote:
Depending on the type of equipment that is being
produced, some may use
distilled water, others filtered water, some use "deionized" water.
1) Do not use any detergents. NONE.
2) Turn off the plate warming and drying cycles. The heating elements in
the washer can distort or damage plastics.
3) Remove soon after cycle is complete. Do not let items sit overnight.
Shake off water.
4) Stand up or hang to dry.
5) Let items dry inside the house for several days. I usually don't touch
washed items for at least 3-4 days.
6) Don't plug the item in to power of any form until step #5 has completed.
For delicate items, I use water from the sink at a low flow rate, and spray
a mixture of 409 and water onto the item and allow it to soak for a few
minutes before rinsing. I may use a soft paintbrush to clean stubborn dirt
if necessary. Rinse and repeat.
Of course, don't wash the boards with your regular load of plates and
pots..... : )
I also would consider the qaulity of the water. I would wash in
distilled
water. The last thing you want is clorine or other acids and junk from
the
water slower eating your PCB.
--
Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's --
www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html
7:14 a.m.
At 09:27 AM 12/15/01 -0700, you wrote:
I also would consider the qaulity of the water. I would
wash in
distilled
water. The last thing you want is clorine or other acids and junk from
the
water slower eating your PCB.
Chlorine shouldn't be a problem because it will diffuse out to the air
before it has a chance to do damage. Sweat from your hands
would be very, very bad and will cause widespread corrosion
in the long term.
carlos.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo(a)nospammers.ieee.org
7:28 a.m.
Ben,
Typically, the time spent "in the water" isn't long enough to damage. Even
items made of steel and iron won't rust if the water is removed after the
cycle is complete. If they sit overnight, well, that's a different story.
The only production problem I saw with untreated water was with an
electronic test instrument that had a lot of high-impedance signal
interconnects throughout. Many signal lines ran for long distances next to
each other. While the design of this piece of test equipment was
questionable, it was our duty to get it to work.
The two biggest problems were contaminants from the water supply used in
the washing process (city water - switched to using a commercial filtration
system), and humidity (had to paint a sealant on all of the boards).
Typical TTL logic, low frequency systems do not suffer from these problems....
- Matt
I also would consider the qaulity of the water. I would
wash in
distilled
water. The last thing you want is clorine or other acids and junk from
the
water slower eating your PCB.
--
Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's --
www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html
Matthew Sell
Programmer
On Time Support, Inc.
www.ontimesupport.com
(281) 296-6066
Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST!
http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler
Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er...
8328
days inactive
8328
days old
13 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
allain＠panix.com -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
cmurillo＠emtelsa.multi.net.co -
fernande＠internet1.net -
jss＠subatomix.com -
msell＠ontimesupport.com -
tothwolf＠concentric.net -
vance＠ikickass.org