8 Oct
2005
8 Oct
'05
5:25 p.m.
On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 03:25:49 -0500 (CDT), cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
Message: 22
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:51:09 -0700
From: jim stephens <james.w.stephens at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density?
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID:
<ae0bc2000510072151o541c0ad3u8dbc114f37216beb at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
<snip>
I built a new machine around an EPoX 9NPA nForce 4 motherboard and found
out to my surprise that it was only capable of running one floppy drive.
In my case the BIOS provides no way to enable a second drive, so at
least it's consistent. Having a BIOS that lets you put in settings for
a second drive when the hardware doesn't support it would really be a
screwup.
EPoX makes schematics available, so I downloaded one and studied it to
try to confirm whether there really was no way to get a second drive to
work. It turns out the super-IO chip they use to run the floppies and
several other system functions (fan control, temperature sensors, serial
and parallel ports, etc.) has only a limited number of pins. Several
have multiple functions, and the motherboard designer has to select
which function he wants to use for each pin and do without the others.
EPoX chose to use the pins that could have driven the second floppy's
motor-on and drive select for other functions (I forget what offhand).
So those pins are no-connects on the floppy cable.
As a small compensation, it's possible to reconfigure the parallel port
as an external floppy connector. If you do that, you can put two drives
on it. (Whoopee.)
This all is not a huge deal for me since I can pop a Catweasel card into
the machine if I really want more floppies in it, but it's a bit annoying.
--
Tim Mann tim at tim-mann.org http://tim-mann.org/
<snip>
Actually, I am still slowly getting over my long painful struggle to get
two floppy drives enabled on a Dell Optiplex system. There's support
for a second floppy in the BIOS but it appears the hardware support is
entirely missing. I had to just do away with the 3-1/2" disk to get a
5-1/4" disk installed in one of my (many, since I get them for < $5 all
kitted out with Pentium III processors) beloved (!!??!!) Optiplex boxes.
Was there THAT much savings in not including hardware support for two
floppies, DELL? Why not patch settings for the second drive out of the
BIOS so we don't pound our heads against the wall trying??
I'm curious about the comment about second drive support missing. I
am curious
why the addition of a proper multiheaded cable doesnt
fix this?
they actually dont drive the drive select in the cable? 
9 Oct
9 Oct
7:35 a.m.
Or you can use an external USB to floppy interface enclosure. A few
on the list have commented on their use and types. In theory, you
could have many, many drives this way.
-John Boffemmyer IV
At 05:25 PM 10/8/2005, you wrote:
On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 03:25:49 -0500 (CDT), cctech-request
at classiccmp.org wrote:
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Message: 22
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:51:09 -0700
From: jim stephens <james.w.stephens at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density?
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID:
<ae0bc2000510072151o541c0ad3u8dbc114f37216beb at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
<snip>
I built a new machine around an EPoX 9NPA nForce 4 motherboard and found
out to my surprise that it was only capable of running one floppy drive.
In my case the BIOS provides no way to enable a second drive, so at
least it's consistent. Having a BIOS that lets you put in settings for
a second drive when the hardware doesn't support it would really be a
screwup.
EPoX makes schematics available, so I downloaded one and studied it to
try to confirm whether there really was no way to get a second drive to
work. It turns out the super-IO chip they use to run the floppies and
several other system functions (fan control, temperature sensors, serial
and parallel ports, etc.) has only a limited number of pins. Several
have multiple functions, and the motherboard designer has to select
which function he wants to use for each pin and do without the others.
EPoX chose to use the pins that could have driven the second floppy's
motor-on and drive select for other functions (I forget what offhand).
So those pins are no-connects on the floppy cable.
As a small compensation, it's possible to reconfigure the parallel port
as an external floppy connector. If you do that, you can put two drives
on it. (Whoopee.)
This all is not a huge deal for me since I can pop a Catweasel card into
the machine if I really want more floppies in it, but it's a bit annoying.
--
Tim Mann tim at tim-mann.org http://tim-mann.org/
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/124 - Release Date: 10/7/2005
<snip>
Actually, I am still slowly getting over my long painful struggle to get
two floppy drives enabled on a Dell Optiplex system. There's support
for a second floppy in the BIOS but it appears the hardware support is
entirely missing. I had to just do away with the 3-1/2" disk to get a
5-1/4" disk installed in one of my (many, since I get them for < $5 all
kitted out with Pentium III processors) beloved (!!??!!) Optiplex boxes.
Was there THAT much savings in not including hardware support for two
floppies, DELL? Why not patch settings for the second drive out of the
BIOS so we don't pound our heads against the wall trying??
I'm curious about the comment about second drive support missing. I
am curious
why the addition of a proper multiheaded cable doesnt
fix this?
they actually dont drive the drive select in the cable? 
10 Oct
10 Oct
3:54 p.m.
On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, John Boffemmyer IV wrote:
Or you can use an external USB to floppy interface
enclosure. A few
on the list have commented on their use and types. In theory, you
could have many, many drives this way.
And one of the main comments in that discussion, was that NOBODY knows of
a source for one that isn't heavily integrated with the drive electronics,
resulting in unavailability of any that could be used for anything other
than 3.5"
4:22 p.m.
John Boffemmyer IV wrote:
Or you can use an external USB to floppy interface
enclosure. A few on
the list have commented on their use and types. In theory, you could
have many, many drives this way.
I have several of these and have used several other brands and types
and they all have one thing in common.
They support 3.5" 1.44MB floppy disks *only*. I've taken 2 apart to
see if I could at least substitute a 720K-capable drive, and they're
"integrated". No substitution possible.
Doc
3:32 p.m.
John Boffemmyer IV wrote:
They support 3.5" 1.44MB floppy disks *only*.
I've taken 2 apart to
see if I could at least substitute a 720K-capable drive, and they're
"integrated". No substitution possible.
Doc
Same here, I picked up a cheap USB "pinhole" style cam with 2 SMD
white LEDs in tiny case for laptop use, size of a thumb. From
"The Source aka Rat Shock". Popped it open and found cam sensor
module is all one with USB built in, just one chip!
Thought some used to have two chip design that took a NTSC output
from cam IC to a video to USB converter IC. Ugh.
Cheers, Wizard
12 Oct
12 Oct
9:15 p.m.
New subject: PC Collection on eBay
Portland Oregon
8708420717
I guess the bicycle is included! ;)
Gil
9:29 p.m.
New subject: PC Collection on eBay
I recognize that garage. It's Sellam's house!
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Gil Carrick
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 9:16 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: PC Collection on eBay
Portland Oregon
8708420717
I guess the bicycle is included! ;)
Gil
12:19 a.m.
New subject: PC Collection on eBay
Portland Oregon 8708420717
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8708420717
Worse use of a photograph ever!
Well maybe not worst, four computers are visible.
12:33 a.m.
New subject: PC Collection on eBay
I looked at his other sales, and they seem to be junk that is not computer
related. Maybe
this isnt the id of the owner, since one of the last sales was of
Fiestaware.
hard to get a read on it from that.
he did respond to the comments on the photo in the copy for the listing.
6:23 a.m.
New subject: PC Collection on eBay
I sent a message asking to go look next week if possible. We will see what
they say. It doesn't seem anyone I know.
Paxton
--
Paxton Hoag
Astoria, OR
USA
10:57 a.m.
New subject: PC Collection on eBay
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote:
I recognize that garage. It's Sellam's house!
Please, you insult me. My garage KIND OF used to look like that before my
collection outgrew it and moved to a warehouse.
In any event, I don't store computers in my house. At least not like
that. This guy apparently never heard of an invention called "shelving".
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
11:32 a.m.
New subject: PC Collection on eBay
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, 'Computer Collector
Newsletter' wrote:
You just live in the "warehouse", right? ;-)
I recognize that garage. It's Sellam's
house!
Please, you insult me. My garage KIND OF used to look like that before my
collection outgrew it and moved to a warehouse.
In any event, I don't store computers in my house.
6:04 p.m.
New subject: PC Collection on eBay
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Jules Richardson wrote:
My wife would never go for that (yes, I've suggested it ;)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
In any event,
I don't store computers in my house.
You just live in the "warehouse", right? ;-) 
11:41 a.m.
New subject: PC Collection on eBay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf at siconic.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 10:57 AM
Subject: RE: PC Collection on eBay
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, 'Computer Collector
Newsletter' wrote:
Festival
Since you probably have 2 of everything (and spend your spare time building
an ark waiting for the next great flood), what machines do you still get
into messing with for fun?
I recognize that garage. It's Sellam's
house!
Please, you insult me. My garage KIND OF used to look like that before my
collection outgrew it and moved to a warehouse.
In any event, I don't store computers in my house. At least not like
that. This guy apparently never heard of an invention called "shelving".
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
6:06 p.m.
New subject: PC Collection on eBay
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Teo Zenios wrote:
Since you probably have 2 of everything (and spend
your spare time building
an ark waiting for the next great flood), what machines do you still get
into messing with for fun?
With some regret I must say I don't do it for fun these days, but for
money. It's not that I'm just in it for the money, but between earning a
living and all my other responsibilities, I just don't have the time to
play with them anymore :(
But someday...
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
11:31 p.m.
New subject: PC Collection on eBay
Portland
Oregon
8708420717
Zane, is that storage unit one of yours :-)?
Vince
13 Oct
13 Oct
10:55 a.m.
New subject: PC Collection on eBay
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Gil Carrick wrote:
Portland Oregon
8708420717
I guess the bicycle is included! ;)
Why do these people even bother? It's not even worth the eBay fees nor
the time it took him to write up the listing.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
11 Oct
11 Oct
9:24 a.m.
Doc Shipley wrote:
John Boffemmyer IV wrote:
How about SCSI floppy drives?
Peace... Sridhar
Or you can use an external USB to floppy
interface enclosure. A few on
the list have commented on their use and types. In theory, you could
have many, many drives this way.
I have several of these and have used several other brands and types
and they all have one thing in common.
They support 3.5" 1.44MB floppy disks *only*. I've taken 2 apart to
see if I could at least substitute a 720K-capable drive, and they're
"integrated". No substitution possible. 
11:44 a.m.
On 10/11/2005 at 9:24 AM Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
How about SCSI floppy drives?
The problem with SCSI floppies is essentially the same--addressing is on a sector number
basis, not CHS. So the drives have limited format recognition capabilities. I've
never seen a 5.25' SCSI floppy, though at one time SMS marketed a SCSI-to-FDC
conversion board. But that was many years ago in the early days of SCSI, so it probably
wouldn't work on a modern SCSI adapter. Perhaps the SCSI firmware in a stock Teac
FD-235S could be tweaked, but the drives are pretty hard to come by.
Although a stock USB drive is pretty brain-dead, it should be noted that the SMSC USB
floppy chip (USB97CFDC2-01) does have the option of attaching a user-supplied external
serial EEPROM for custom support. According to the SMSC website, an evaluation board was
produced for the first version of this chip (USB97CFDC), and, judging from the schematic,
attached to a legacy floppy interface. It'd be interesting to get a couple of the
boards and see if the chip could be made to drive a 5.25" drive and how much
flexibility is incorporated in the chip (e.g., can FM-encoded diskettes be read?). Of
course, host-side drivers would have to be written to handle an expanded interface, but it
still might be an interesting exercise.
Cheers,
Chuck
12:03 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 10/11/2005 at 9:24 AM Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
But a DECstation 2100/3100 comes with a floppy drive hooked to a board
with a 34-pin floppy header, and then the SCSI bus from the motherboard
plugs into the translator board. Could something like this be used?
Peace... Sridhar
How about SCSI floppy drives?
The problem with SCSI floppies is essentially the same--addressing is on a sector number
basis, not CHS. So the drives have limited format recognition capabilities. I've
never seen a 5.25' SCSI floppy, though at one time SMS marketed a SCSI-to-FDC
conversion board. But that was many years ago in the early days of SCSI, so it probably
wouldn't work on a modern SCSI adapter. Perhaps the SCSI firmware in a stock Teac
FD-235S could be tweaked, but the drives are pretty hard to come by.
12:14 p.m.
On 10/11/2005 at 12:03 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
But a DECstation 2100/3100 comes with a floppy drive
hooked to a board
with a 34-pin floppy header, and then the SCSI bus from the motherboard
plugs into the translator board. Could something like this be used?
Perhaps. But I've not seen one the DECStation boards up close, so I don't have a
clue as to what its capabilities might be.
Cheers
Chuck
12:21 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 10/11/2005 at 12:03 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
In the case of the Torch Manta board - which is presumably similar to
the DEC and SMS offerings, it was just a SCSI controller chip, CPU, FDC
chip (WDC of some sort IIRC, but one of the less-common ones), and the
expected ROM, RAM etc.
It'd support four floppy drives of pretty much any type, although there
were some limitations when tweaking what pins were used for inputs or
outputs (typically all of the potential four drives on the one board
were expeted to use the same electrical interface)
At a software level it needed a SCSI command to define drive parameters,
and from them on it was just like any other SCSI device with multiple
LUNs and removeable media.
No access was given to any of the raw data stream, though. The board
took care of that - it was highly configurable otherwise though.
I expect all SCSI-floppy bridge boards are very similar, although
earlier ones probably don't support things like SCSI INQUIRY.
cheers
Jules
But a DECstation 2100/3100 comes with a floppy
drive hooked to a board
with a 34-pin floppy header, and then the SCSI bus from the motherboard
plugs into the translator board. Could something like this be used?
Perhaps. But I've not seen one the DECStation boards up close, so I don't have a
clue as to what its capabilities might be.
12 Oct
12 Oct
7:47 a.m.
On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 10/11/2005 at 9:24 AM Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
I'm sitting here looking at a TEAC FD-55GFR 5.25" floppy drive with a
TEAC-branded SCSI daughterboard mounted on it. Picked this thing up for a
buck at a flea market and don't know much about it. Anyone else familiar
with it? I'm not even sure if this is a HD drive.
Steve
How about SCSI floppy drives?
The problem with SCSI floppies is essentially the same--addressing is on
a sector number basis, not CHS. So the drives have limited format
recognition capabilities. I've never seen a 5.25' SCSI floppy, though
at one time SMS marketed a SCSI-to-FDC conversion board. 
8:44 a.m.
----- Oprindelig meddelelse -----
Fra: "Steven N. Hirsch" <shirsch at adelphia.net>
I'm sitting here looking at a TEAC FD-55GFR 5.25" floppy drive with a
TEAC-branded SCSI daughterboard mounted on it. Picked this thing up for a
buck at a flea market and don't know much about it. Anyone else familiar
with it? I'm not even sure if this is a HD drive.
GFR is the 1.2M (HD) drive
Nico
12:18 p.m.
I'm sitting here looking at a TEAC FD-55GFR
5.25" floppy drive with a
TEAC-branded SCSI daughterboard mounted on it. Picked this thing up for a
buck at a flea market and don't know much about it. Anyone else familiar
with it? I'm not even sure if this is a HD drive.
The _drive_ is HD, I am not sure what the controller can do, though. The
suffix letters of Teac drive numbers seem to indicate the specs as
follows :
A : 40 cylinder single-sided
B : 40 cyclinder double sided
C : 77 cylinder single sided (??? I have never seen this)
D : 77 cylinder double sided (??? or this)
E : 80 cylinder single sided
F : 80 cylinder double sided
G : 80 cylinder double sided, 360RPM, high density (1.2M for PCs)
H : 80 cylinder double sided, 300RPM, high density (1.44M for PCs)
-tony
9 Oct
9 Oct
10:52 a.m.
On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 14:25:41 -0700
Tim Mann <tim at tim-mann.org> wrote:
On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 03:25:49 -0500 (CDT),
cctech-request at classiccmp.org
wrote:
One thing I am wondering is if an 8-bit floppy controller card (the ones
Message: 22
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:51:09 -0700
From: jim stephens <james.w.stephens at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: TEAC FD-55GFR = Quad Density?
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID:
<ae0bc2000510072151o541c0ad3u8dbc114f37216beb at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
<snip>
I built a new machine around an EPoX 9NPA nForce 4 motherboard and
found out to my surprise that it was only capable of running one
floppy drive. In my case the BIOS provides no way to enable a second
drive, so at least it's consistent. Having a BIOS that lets you put
in settings for a second drive when the hardware doesn't support it
would really be a screwup.
EPoX makes schematics available, so I downloaded one and studied it to
try to confirm whether there really was no way to get a second drive
to work. It turns out the super-IO chip they use to run the floppies
and several other system functions (fan control, temperature sensors,
serial and parallel ports, etc.) has only a limited number of pins.
Several have multiple functions, and the motherboard designer has to
select which function he wants to use for each pin and do without the
others. EPoX chose to use the pins that could have driven the second
floppy's motor-on and drive select for other functions (I forget what
offhand). So those pins are no-connects on the floppy cable.
As a small compensation, it's possible to reconfigure the parallel
port as an external floppy connector. If you do that, you can put two
drives on it. (Whoopee.)
This all is not a huge deal for me since I can pop a Catweasel card
into the machine if I really want more floppies in it, but it's a bit
annoying.
<snip>
Actually, I am still slowly getting over my long painful struggle
to get two floppy drives enabled on a Dell Optiplex system.
There's support for a second floppy in the BIOS but it appears the
hardware support is entirely missing. I had to just do away with
the 3-1/2" disk to get a 5-1/4" disk installed in one of my (many,
since I get them for < $5 all kitted out with Pentium III
processors) beloved (!!??!!) Optiplex boxes. Was there THAT much
savings in not including hardware support for two floppies, DELL?
Why not patch settings for the second drive out of the BIOS so we
don't pound our heads against the wall trying??
I'm curious about the comment about second drive support missing.
I
am curious why the addition of a proper multiheaded cable doesnt
fix this?
they actually dont drive the drive select in the cable? from the PC-XT generation, which didn't have floppy
IO on the
motherboard) could be modified (if needed) and contrived to work in a
more modern system that still has the ISA bus. If the particular I/O
locations are being used, simple cuts and adds could re-direct the I/O
ports. This would give the enterprising programmer a 765 controller
with relevant hardware to plug additional drives into. The original
PC-PC/XT controller is fully documented in the TechRef, and even has all
the cabling in place to support four floppies.
--
Tim Mann tim at tim-mann.org http://tim-mann.org/
6863
days inactive
6868
days old
28 comments
21 participants
participants (21)
-
allain＠panix.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cclist＠sydex.com -
chenmel＠earthlink.net -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
gilcarrick＠comcast.net -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
innfoclassics＠gmail.com -
james.w.stephens＠gmail.com -
john_boffemmyer_iv＠boff-net.dhs.org -
jpero＠sympatico.ca -
julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk -
news＠computercollector.com -
nico＠FARUMDATA.DK -
ploopster＠gmail.com -
shirsch＠adelphia.net -
teoz＠neo.rr.com -
tim＠tim-mann.org -
vcf＠siconic.com -
vrs＠msn.com