24 Nov
2007
24 Nov
'07
3:40 a.m.
--------------Original Messages:
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:58:17 -0500
From: "Roy J. Tellason" <rtellason at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Teaching kids about computers...
On Thursday 22 November 2007 18:48, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Good point. There is the concept of "depth"
of understanding. Many
people who regard themselves as programming professionals would be
lost without an operating system. Some would be lost without an
assembler. And, sad to say, some would be lost without some sort of
Java facility.
This reminds me of folks I used to run into back in the day that considered
themselves "programmers" -- in dbase!
For some, that's not sufficient. Understanding
how a disk drive
works or what goes on over a TCP/IP connection is essential to them.
Some of us actually enjoy that sort of thing and some just want to be able to
use the end result, or maybe tweak it a bit.
------------Reply:
Well, you've just insulted several thousand professional dBase programmers,
myself included, with your elitist snobbery. I would guess that a competent
dBase programmer would probably have the average small database program
completed and delivered in the time it would take just to lay out, code and debug
the necessary file- and screen-handling routines in most of the other comparable
languages of the day, at least until you'd built up a decent and relevant library.
Tools are developed to make a job easier and do it better; in my opinion taking
advantage of those tools and doing things "the easy way" makes you more
professional, not less.
A programming professional's job is to deliver a product that meets the client's
needs, is well documented and easily maintained, and is delivered on time and
within budget. Knowing or caring about the arcane details of a disk drive or being
able to program an OS-less computer in binary may matter if you're working on
an embedded controller but it's pretty irrelevant if the project is a client
accounting
system for a large financial institution.
What is important is good communication and organizational skills, the ability to
conceptualize, proficiency in the use of whatever tools are appropriate to the job
at hand, and enough humility to give the client what he/she really wants instead
of what he/she *should have*, qualities often lacking in the "hacker"
mentality.
The same applies to the original topic: among the many replies suggesting how
a child *should* learn about computers, I didn't see many suggestions that the
child him/herself might be the best judge and perhaps the best approach might
be to explore what his/her interests are (instead of what yours were), and provide
whatever resources are appropriate and relevant to those interests.
m
24 Nov
24 Nov
11:54 p.m.
Tools are developed to make a job easier and do it
better; in my opinion taking
advantage of those tools and doing things "the easy way" makes you more
professional, not less.
I would agree, but...
1) Being able ot use the tools, however proficiently, does not
necessarily equate with being able to design/make those tools. I haev
never used dBase (or any other database for that matter), so I can't
comment on that, but I will claim that being able to use _some_
application programs does not make you a programmer.
2) The initial question was about education. Education is not production.
When you're prodcuing something, of course you use all the applicable
tools. When you're leaning about things, you have to do things 'by hand'
to understand them (and example of this, from another context, is that
photography couses used to insist that the students used cameras with
manaul focuessing and exposure cotnrol, so they could learn what said
adjustments meant, even though if you were being paid to take photographs
you would _probably_ welcome some automation). I fact I will go further
and say that the true professionals not only use the right tools, but
also fully understnad how those tools work and behave, because that way
they can use them more effectvely.
A programming professional's job is to deliver a product that meets the client's
needs, is well documented and easily maintained, and is delivered on time and
within budget. Knowing or caring about the arcane details of a disk drive or being
able to program an OS-less computer in binary may matter if you're working on
an embedded controller but it's pretty irrelevant if the project is a client
accounting
system for a large financial institution.
Tuew, but a 'client system for a large finanicail instution' is hardly
the only type ofr computer application.
-tony
25 Nov
25 Nov
7:16 p.m.
The same applies to the original topic: among the
many replies suggesting how
a child *should* learn about computers, I didn't see
many suggestions that the
child him/herself might be the best judge and
perhaps the best approach might
be to explore what his/her interests are (instead of
what yours were), and provide
whatever resources are appropriate and relevant to
those interests.
It just stands to reason that dad, being himself
interested in this stuff, might want to introduce his
child to what interests him. This doesn't mean he's
being forced to persue or like something. Being that
his son expressed some interest in how the things
tick, he asked for advice on the best way for him to
get his feet wet and maybe provide a springboard for
further investigation. It goes w/o saying the child
might lose interest at some point.
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26 Nov
26 Nov
5:41 p.m.
On Friday 23 November 2007 22:40, M H Stein wrote:
--------------Original Messages:
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:58:17 -0500
From: "Roy J. Tellason" <rtellason at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Teaching kids about computers...
On Thursday 22 November 2007 18:48, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I would tend to assume that having those libraries on hand ahead of time would
be a prerequisite to trying to do that sort of an application. I know that
when I worked on some of that stuff I spent an awful lot of time trying to
get that part right.
Good point. There is the concept of
"depth" of understanding. Many
people who regard themselves as programming professionals would be
lost without an operating system. Some would be lost without an
assembler. And, sad to say, some would be lost without some sort of
Java facility.
This reminds me of folks I used to run into back in the day that considered
themselves "programmers" -- in dbase!
For some, that's not sufficient.
Understanding how a disk drive
works or what goes on over a TCP/IP connection is essential to them.
Some of us actually enjoy that sort of thing and some just want to be able
to use the end result, or maybe tweak it a bit.
------------Reply:
Well, you've just insulted several thousand professional dBase programmers,
myself included, with your elitist snobbery. I would guess that a competent
dBase programmer would probably have the average small database program
completed and delivered in the time it would take just to lay out, code and
debug the necessary file- and screen-handling routines in most of the other
comparable languages of the day, at least until you'd built up a decent and
relevant library. Tools are developed to make a job easier and do it
better; in my opinion
taking advantage of those tools and doing things "the easy way" makes you
more professional, not less.
No argument there. My comment wasn't directed at the "professionals" you
refer to above, but to some of the folks that tended to use
the "conversational" aspects of that software to get things done. A fair
amount of it that I encountered was truly awful.
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
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