28 Oct
2008
28 Oct
'08
1:23 a.m.
I'm hoping someone can shed light on this. For the past week, I've been
battling to get my Sun Ultra-60 video switchable through a Belkin 8-port
KVM switch. The monitor is a Samsung 214T 20" LCD.
- Connect monitor directly to workstation with a 13W3 Sync-On-Green
adapter (no passthrough of sync signals): Works fine.
- Connect monitor directly to workstation with a 13W3 adapter that brings
out H+V sync: Works fine.
- Connect either of the above to a port on the KVM switch: Switch does
not recognize that anything is connected and refuses to pull in the relay
(I can hear an audible click from any channel with recognized video). The
status LED on the KVM keeps flashing to say "no one there!". Obviously no
video.
- Purchase Belkin Sun adapter box from eBay and connect it between the U60
and the KVM: KVM recognizes that video is there and pulls in the relay.
The monitor _seems_ to believe that something is there, as the blinking
green "nothing attached to me" LED goes solid on. However, nothing ever
appears on the screen. I tried all DIP switch settings on the adapter
(connected to Sun monitor sense lines).
- In desperation, connect monitor directly to HD15 port on the Belkin
adapter: Same thing. Solid green LED, no display.
The same machine worked perfectly through an older 4-port Belkin unit
(that I've outgrown, thus the 8-port).
What on earth am I missing here? I don't even see a common denominator,
but am hoping that someone more familiar with the details of Sun video can
give me a nudge in the right direction.
On the subject of the Belkin KVM: Is it possible that their "detection"
is simply looking for a grounded pin or a pair of pins looped back by
virtue of the computer being connected? Maybe expecting a voltage? If I
could trick it into activating the port, I could just feed through from
the 13W3 adapter and be done with it. Naturally Belkin's site has no
information at this low level of detail...
Steve
--
28 Oct
28 Oct
7:40 a.m.
[...] I've been battling to get my Sun Ultra-60
video switchable
through a Belkin 8-port KVM switch. [...]
In case it helps, I have a Belkin 8-port (might even be the same model
as yours) and my impression is that the KVM's idea of whether something
is connected is driven off voltage on the keyboard connector. For
example, if I have the KVM switched to a machine and everything's
working, then I pull the keyboard connector, the relay clicks and the
video goes away, even though I haven't touched the video connections.
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1:56 p.m.
On Tue, 28 Oct 2008, der Mouse wrote:
Bingo! That was the ticket. The one thing I didn't try was leaving the
adapter box connected to the mouse and keyboard ports (which was indeed
responsible for "activating" the port) and connecting video from one of my
13w3 adapters to the KVM port instead of trying to pass video through
the Sun adapter. Now, I have keyboard, mouse and video :-).
Next mystery: Why on earth won't this work with video going through the
Belkin adapter? I did note that the options offered all use vertical
refresh rates well north of 60Khz (fast for an LCD), but since I have more
reasonable ones selected in software for both console and X server I
thought those would preside anyway.
Is it possible that the DIP switch settings on the Belkin adapter are
overriding this to ill effect? Anyone familiar enough with Sun internals
to know which presides?
Steve
--
[...] I've
been battling to get my Sun Ultra-60 video switchable
through a Belkin 8-port KVM switch. [...]
In case it helps, I have a Belkin 8-port (might even be the same model
as yours) and my impression is that the KVM's idea of whether something
is connected is driven off voltage on the keyboard connector. For
example, if I have the KVM switched to a machine and everything's
working, then I pull the keyboard connector, the relay clicks and the
video goes away, even though I haven't touched the video connections.
29 Oct
29 Oct
6:10 p.m.
I did note that the options offered all use vertical
refresh rates
well north of 60Khz (fast for an LCD), [...]
60KHz is indeed very fast for a vertical sync frequency. ITYPM 60Hz.
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9:48 p.m.
On Wed, 29 Oct 2008, der Mouse wrote:
Heh. Yes, that would be one hell of a fast refresh wouldn't it?
--
I did note
that the options offered all use vertical refresh rates
well north of 60Khz (fast for an LCD), [...]
60KHz is indeed very fast for a vertical sync frequency. ITYPM 60Hz. 
30 Oct
30 Oct
9:02 a.m.
On 29/10/2008 21:48, Steven Hirsch wrote:
On Wed, 29 Oct 2008, der Mouse wrote:
Heh. Yes, that would be one hell of a fast refresh wouldn't it?
But somebody, somewhere, would still complain about the flicker.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
I did
note that the options offered all use vertical refresh rates
well north of 60Khz (fast for an LCD), [...]
60KHz is indeed very fast for a vertical sync frequency. ITYPM 60Hz. 
28 Oct
28 Oct
10:37 a.m.
Steven Hirsch wrote:
I'm hoping someone can shed light on this. For
the past week, I've
been battling to get my Sun Ultra-60 video switchable through a Belkin
8-port KVM switch. The monitor is a Samsung 214T 20" LCD.
...
- Connect either of the above to a port on the KVM
switch: Switch
does not recognize that anything is connected and refuses to pull in
the relay (I can hear an audible click from any channel with
recognized video). The status LED on the KVM keeps flashing to say
"no one there!". Obviously no video.
I don't know about your specific KVM, however, the Belkin 8 port one I
have specifically looks for a keyboard port. Even if there is an active
video source, unless I also plug in the KVM into a PS/2 style port on
the computer end, it will refuse to display video.
I'm not sure if it's looking for 5V or something else. You might
experiment with a PS/2 style plug and see if you can provide ground and
+5V on the appropriate pins - that might do the trick.
I've had troubles even using a PS/2<->USB keyboard plug with some
machines (i.e. G4 Macintosh), but there are boxes that simulate an
always connected keyboard and mouse. When connected to those, it always
worked. I don't know if you can still get those anymore - they were
meant for PC servers whose BIOS (or badly written OS) would freak out if
there was no keyboard attached and therefore behaved badly when attached
to KVMs.
1:02 p.m.
--- On Mon, 10/27/08, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:
I'm hoping someone can shed light on this. For
the past
week, I've been
battling to get my Sun Ultra-60 video switchable through a
Belkin 8-port
KVM switch. The monitor is a Samsung 214T 20" LCD.
<snip>
What on earth am I missing here? I don't even see
a
common denominator,
but am hoping that someone more familiar with the details
of Sun video can
give me a nudge in the right direction.
On the subject of the Belkin KVM: Is it possible that
their "detection"
is simply looking for a grounded pin or a pair of pins
looped back by
virtue of the computer being connected? Maybe expecting a
voltage? If I
could trick it into activating the port, I could just feed
through from
the 13W3 adapter and be done with it. Naturally
Belkin's site has no
information at this low level of detail...
A lot of KVM's I have seen base their detection on receiving power from the keyboard
port. This precludes their operation with a Macintosh, SUN, or other machine where
you're not switching the keyboard through the KVM. Try connecting the keyboard input
to another computer, and then you should be able to select that port.
As for the video itself, most SUN machines use sync-on-green. In this mode, the sync
signals are riding on the green video signal. The KVM might not know what to make of this,
since it's not going to be getting a sync signal on the appropriate sync pins.
-Ian
7:11 p.m.
I'm hoping someone can shed light on this. For the past week, I've been
battling to get my Sun Ultra-60 video switchable through a Belkin 8-port
KVM switch. The monitor is a Samsung 214T 20" LCD.
- Connect monitor directly to workstation with a 13W3 Sync-On-Green
adapter (no passthrough of sync signals): Works fine.
- Connect monitor directly to workstation with a 13W3 adapter that brings
out H+V sync: Works fine.
Does this adapater do anything to the green signal? Is it possile that
the monitor is still using sync-on-green and ignroing the H and V Syncs
from the adapter (if, indeed, they're even active)?
- Connect either of the above to a port on the KVM switch: Switch does
not recognize that anything is connected and refuses to pull in the relay
(I can hear an audible click from any channel with recognized video). The
status LED on the KVM keeps flashing to say "no one there!". Obviously no
video.
- Purchase Belkin Sun adapter box from eBay and connect it between the U60
and the KVM: KVM recognizes that video is there and pulls in the relay.
Does this just connect ot the video port on the switch, or to the
keyboard and/or mouse ports as well? It wouldn't suprise me if checking
for +5V on, say, the keyboard port was part of the 'I have a computer
connected' detection.
If it does just connect to the video port, it's possible that the swithc
needs active sync signals on the H and/or V lines. Have you stuck a
'scope on the outputs of the adapter to see just which signals are active?
The monitor _seems_ to believe that something is
there, as the blinking
green "nothing attached to me" LED goes solid on. However, nothing ever
appears on the screen. I tried all DIP switch settings on the adapter
(connected to Sun monitor sense lines).
- In desperation, connect monitor directly to HD15 port on the Belkin
adapter: Same thing. Solid green LED, no display.
Do you use the same connector on the monitor in all tests, or are the
first 2 using BNC sockets or similar? It's possible the the monitor
wi;ll not accept sync-on-green over the DE15 connector.
It would be intereting to know what, if anything, is coming out on the H
and V lines of that adapter
-tony
11:34 p.m.
On Tue, 28 Oct 2008, Tony Duell wrote:
Not sure what you mean. If there's sync-on-green, it will be there. The
second adapter just happens to pass through H&V sync also. Both work when
the monitor is connected to the workstation through them. These are
strictly passive adapters - not to be confused with the Belkin adapter
which has active circuitry and handle keyboard and mouse along with video.
It connects to all of the above. I've already heard from just about
everyone (thanks!) that the +5V keyboard power is what it's looking for to
activate the port in the first place. One of the things I want to run
through it is video from one of my Amigas, so it appears I'll need to
build up a little 5V supply with a keyboard connector that I can use to
fool that port (since the Amiga 1200 has its own keyboard and mouse).
Sorry. In all cases I'm using a PC-standard VGA-VGA (HD15M-HD15M) cable.
I'm starting to suspect that the Belkin converter box may be defective, in
that it appears sync _is_ getting through while video is not. I can't
think of any other reason why the monitor comes out of standby and yet
displays a black screen. Will get a scope on it soonish and see what's
coming out.
Steve
--
I'm hoping someone can shed light on this. For the past week, I've been
battling to get my Sun Ultra-60 video switchable through a Belkin 8-port
KVM switch. The monitor is a Samsung 214T 20" LCD.
- Connect monitor directly to workstation with a 13W3 Sync-On-Green
adapter (no passthrough of sync signals): Works fine.
- Connect monitor directly to workstation with a 13W3 adapter that brings
out H+V sync: Works fine.
Does this adapater do anything to the green signal? Is it possile that
the monitor is still using sync-on-green and ignroing the H and V Syncs
from the adapter (if, indeed, they're even active)? - Connect
either of the above to a port on the KVM switch: Switch does
not recognize that anything is connected and refuses to pull in the relay
(I can hear an audible click from any channel with recognized video). The
status LED on the KVM keeps flashing to say "no one there!". Obviously no
video.
- Purchase Belkin Sun adapter box from eBay and connect it between the U60
and the KVM: KVM recognizes that video is there and pulls in the relay.
Does this just connect ot the video port on the switch, or to the
keyboard and/or mouse ports as well? It wouldn't suprise me if checking
for +5V on, say, the keyboard port was part of the 'I have a computer
connected' detection. The monitor
_seems_ to believe that something is there, as the blinking
green "nothing attached to me" LED goes solid on. However, nothing ever
appears on the screen. I tried all DIP switch settings on the adapter
(connected to Sun monitor sense lines).
- In desperation, connect monitor directly to HD15 port on the Belkin
adapter: Same thing. Solid green LED, no display.
Do you use the same connector on the monitor in all tests, or are the
first 2 using BNC sockets or similar? It's possible the the monitor
wi;ll not accept sync-on-green over the DE15 connector.
11:50 p.m.
Steven Hirsch wrote:
It connects to all of the above. I've already heard from just about
everyone (thanks!) that the +5V keyboard power is what it's looking
for to activate the port in the first place. One of the things I want
to run through it is video from one of my Amigas, so it appears I'll
need to build up a little 5V supply with a keyboard connector that I
can use to fool that port (since the Amiga 1200 has its own keyboard
and mouse).
I would build a multi-headed cable with maybe say upto as many heads as
you might have non PC machines, then have one of them be a pass through
male-female plug. You'd connect your real keyboard to the pass through,
then the other heads would only get the GND and +5V. I don't think the
KVM draws power from the keyboard ports, it's probably only there as a
signal. You could of course hook them up to a real power supply.
29 Oct
29 Oct
9:27 a.m.
Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> writes:
One of the things I want to run through it is video
from one of my
Amigas, so it appears I'll need to build up a little 5V supply with a
keyboard connector that I can use to fool that port
There is a +5V line on the Amiga video connector that you could use for
this. The classic Amiga-to-VGA adaptor has some 5V-powered logic inside
it to buffer the sync signals, so it'd be easy enough to add a PS/2
connector too.
--
Adam Sampson <ats at offog.org> <http://offog.org/>
4:28 p.m.
- Connect monitor directly to workstation with a 13W3
Sync-On-Green
adapter (no passthrough of sync signals): Works fine.
- Connect monitor directly to workstation with a 13W3 adapter that brings
out H+V sync: Works fine.
Does this adapater do anything to the green signal? Is it possile that
the monitor is still using sync-on-green and ignroing the H and V Syncs
from the adapter (if, indeed, they're even active)? second adapter just happens to pass through H&V
sync also. Both work when
the monitor is connected to the workstation through them. These are
My point is that in both cases the monitor could be using the sync in the
sync-on-green signal and not using the seaprate H and V sync signals
provided by the second adapter. In other words whether the adapter
provides the sync signals might be irrelevant to the monitor, but might,
somehow, affect the swtich.
Does this just
connect ot the video port on the switch, or to the
keyboard and/or mouse ports as well? It wouldn't suprise me if checking
for +5V on, say, the keyboard port was part of the 'I have a computer
connected' detection.
It connects to all of the above. I've already heard from just about
everyone (thanks!) that the +5V keyboard power is what it's looking for to activate the port in the first place. One of the
things I want to run
through it is video from one of my Amigas, so it appears I'll need to
build up a little 5V supply with a keyboard connector that I can use to
fool that port (since the Amiga 1200 has its own keyboard and mouse).
I thought there was a +5V output on at least one of the Amiga connectors.
But maybe only on some models.
Sorry. In all cases I'm using a PC-standard
VGA-VGA (HD15M-HD15M) cable.
I'm starting to suspect that the Belkin converter box may be defective, in
that it appears sync _is_ getting through while video is not. I can't
think of any other reason why the monitor comes out of standby and yet
displays a black screen. Will get a scope on it soonish and see what's
coming out.
This is an LCD monitor, isn't it? I have little experience of those, but
I have seen a video projector that would detect a signal will incorrect
scan rates, but not attempt to display it. Maybe your monitor is similar.
I would try to measure the H and V sync frequencies. It may be (as your
other message implied) that the adapter somehow gets the workstation to
output some scan rate that uour monitor can't handle.
-tony
11:46 p.m.
On 29/10/2008 16:28, Tony Duell wrote:
A lot of LCD monitors do that -- including the two in front of me now.
I'm
starting to suspect that the Belkin converter box may be
defective, in that it appears sync _is_ getting through while video
is not. I can't think of any other reason why the monitor comes
out of standby and yet displays a black screen. Will get a scope
on it soonish and see what's coming out.
This is an LCD monitor, isn't it? I have little experience of those,
but I have seen a video projector that would detect a signal will
incorrect scan rates, but not attempt to display it. Maybe your
monitor is similar. It may be (as your other message implied) that the
adapter somehow
gets the workstation to output some scan rate that uour monitor can't
handle.
Sun (and SGI) 13W3 connector use some of the pins not otherwise reserved
for sync as monitor sense pins -- and the permutation of which are tied
high or low tells some video adapters what resolutions (and hence scan
rates, sometimes) to use. So it's possible. I think it's unlikely,
though, because most adapters I've seen don't connect those pins in any
exciting way, and anyway, Suns don't usually change resolution except
during the boot process.
All I can say is that I've never had much luck with Belkin KVMs on Suns
and SGIs, or even PCs in some cases, and tend to stick to others that I
know are less picky. The best ones I found are cheap Newlink ones. I
have one here working happily with a Sun, an SGI, a PC, an Apple Mac, an
Acorn Archimedes, and a BBC micro (actually it's a 4-way KVM and the SGI
and Mac are not usually connected to it), without a PS/2 keyboard in
sight. Sadly they don't make that model any more :-(
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
30 Oct
30 Oct
12:52 a.m.
New subject: KVM's (was - Re: Help with Sun video)
--- On Wed, 10/29/08, Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> wrote:
All I can say is that I've never had much luck
with
Belkin KVMs on Suns
and SGIs, or even PCs in some cases, and tend to stick to
others that I
know are less picky. The best ones I found are cheap
Newlink ones. I
have one here working happily with a Sun, an SGI, a PC, an
Apple Mac, an
Acorn Archimedes, and a BBC micro (actually it's a
4-way KVM and the SGI
and Mac are not usually connected to it), without a PS/2
keyboard in
sight. Sadly they don't make that model any more :-(
I haven't had that good of luck with the "electronic" KVM's either. They
tend to attempt to do too much thinking and not enough doing what they're told. Many
only work properly with PC's, and even then, I've seen some screw up when running
at really high resolutions - they just blank out the video, even though the monitor and
the computer can handle it just fine without the KVM in the way. Also, many really want
there to be a keyboard connected, and often times I only really want to switch the video.
I guess the device I need is really just a "V", in that case...
Some also don't like the really old IBM 84 key AT keyboard I use.
The old mechanical switch KVM's are great for these odd situations. Although some of
the cheap ones aren't that well sheilded and introduce ringing in the video at high
resolution.
The best KVM I have found has been the Hewlett Packard J1484A. I found it in a pile of
junk PC's at the scrapper. It has worked flawlessly with whatever I throw at it.
It's an electronic design, but the people that made this one got it right. It's
powered by... get this... a power cord! Wonder of wonders, it contains it's _own_
power supply! No external brick! It has a button for each channel, not just one to
"cycle". When you press a button, it changes to that channel - wether there is
anything there or not. The indicator flashes to let you know that it doesn't see
anything, but it passes video and I/O through just the same.
-Ian
31 Oct
31 Oct
1:33 a.m.
New subject: KVM's (was - Re: Help with Sun video)
On Wed, 29 Oct 2008, Mr Ian Primus wrote:
Turns out that the Belkin <--> Sun interface box is simply not passing
video. It was just as easy to run video directly from the box to the KVM
input, so no big deal. The keyboard and mouse are operating fine and that
was the main issue.
I took the advice given to me in this chain of notes and build an adapter
that goes inline between my keyboard and the KVM. Two tails come out of
it with PS2 mini-DIN plugs on the ends. I can connect this to the
keyboard input of any channel where I simply want to switch video. The
Amiga works a treat now!
Thanks to everyone for the good ideas!
Steve
--
--- On Wed, 10/29/08, Pete Turnbull <pete at
dunnington.plus.com> wrote:
All I can say
is that I've never had much luck with Belkin KVMs on Suns
and SGIs, or even PCs in some cases, and tend to stick to others that I
know are less picky. The best ones I found are cheap Newlink ones. I
have one here working happily with a Sun, an SGI, a PC, an Apple Mac,
an Acorn Archimedes, and a BBC micro (actually it's a 4-way KVM and the
SGI and Mac are not usually connected to it), without a PS/2 keyboard
in sight. Sadly they don't make that model any more :-(
I haven't had that good of luck with the "electronic" KVM's either.
They
tend to attempt to do too much thinking and not enough doing what
they're told. Many only work properly with PC's, and even then, I've
seen some screw up when running at really high resolutions - they just
blank out the video, even though the monitor and the computer can handle
it just fine without the KVM in the way. Also, many really want there to
be a keyboard connected, and often times I only really want to switch
the video. I guess the device I need is really just a "V", in that
case...
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ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
ats＠offog.org -
ian_primus＠yahoo.com -
mouse＠Rodents-Montreal.ORG -
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ray＠arachelian.com -
snhirsch＠gmail.com