23 Apr
2003
23 Apr
'03
3:52 p.m.
http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/news/5699838.htm
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
23 Apr
23 Apr
5:09 p.m.
That's right here in the next town over. If it's an open courtroom I could
go over there and check it out.
I don't know about eBay and patent infringement, but I think eBay
has a monopoly on the online auction market for private individuals
which might warrant anti-trust action. I don't think a private individual
would be able to sell many types of items anymore through a classified
ad, and if they tried to use another online auction service, would do so
poorly, that if they would like to do the best they can, just about have no
choice but to list on eBay. Also, eBay has such power in this arena
these days, i.e. no other online auction service for the private individual
seems to be able to compete very well with them, that they got the
sellers by the "nads". They don't seem to be very interested in the
performance of their customers, i.e. the sellers. That's why I don't offer
anything for sale on eBay anymore. I only buy on eBay these days.
At 05:48 PM 4/23/03 -0700, you wrote:
http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/news/5699838.htm
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at
www.VintageTech.com *
5:59 p.m.
On Wednesday, April 23, 2003, at 08:40 PM, Mail List wrote:
That's right here in the next town over. If
it's an open courtroom I
could
go over there and check it out.
I don't know about eBay and patent infringement, but I think eBay
has a monopoly on the online auction market for private individuals
which might warrant anti-trust action. I don't think a private
individual
The fact that an entity may be the only viable player on a given
field doesn't "warrant anti-trust action." If eBay is actively doing
anything to hinder their competition, other than doing what they do
VERY well, and marketing it well, *that* might warrant action.
would be able to sell many types of items anymore
through a classified
ad, and if they tried to use another online auction service, would do
so
poorly, that if they would like to do the best they can, just about
have no
I sell goods all the time on the austin.forsale newsgroup. As far as
I'm concerned, eBay is an *asset* to that, not a detraction. eBay is
the de facto Blue Book for used/surplus goods, allowing me to decide if
my property is salable, whether it's worth more in cash than as a
possession, and how to price it. It also shortstops lowballing by
prospective customers. Naturally, it isn't the only resource I use,
but it a very convenient and extremely well-organized asset for any
seller, and for any buyer of either local or online goods.
choice but to list on eBay. Also, eBay has such power
in this arena
these days, i.e. no other online auction service for the private
individual
seems to be able to compete very well with them, that they got the
sellers by the "nads". They don't seem to be very interested in the
performance of their customers, i.e. the sellers. That's why I don't
offer
anything for sale on eBay anymore. I only buy on eBay these days.
As far as I can tell, and I haven't heard even a rumor of eBay
leveraging their weight against the competition, the only reason the
other online auction services aren't getting action is that they suck.
Doc
7:07 p.m.
Doc,
Your's is an interesting perspective.
the only reason the other online auction services
aren't getting action
is that they suck.
They definitely do. But the reason they suck is that the others don't seem
to have much
variety or volume of interesting items for sale.
eBay is the de facto Blue Book for used/surplus goods
Yet on this very same mailing list, many have said eBay prices are
"artificially" inflated,
etc. and that Michael's book is the more accurate guide to true market
value. It really
does still end up boiling down to each individuals perspective as eBay
buyer's, eBay
seller's, and hobbyist's goals vary quite widely.
As far as I can tell, and I haven't heard even a
rumor of eBay
leveraging their weight
against the competition
I heard that with them being the Goliath that they are, they bought out and
absorbed
most of their potentially serious competitors.
other than doing what they do VERY well, and marketing
it well
Wouldn't that definition fit Microsoft as well. ( Being honest, and not
just bashing
Microsoft because it's the popular thing to do ). Yet Microsoft was brought
up on
anti-trust charges.
The fact that an entity may be the only viable player
on a given field
doesn't "warrant
anti-trust action."
If they were the only player that wanted to play, that would surely be so.
But if almost
no competition can make a dent in the market against such a Goliath, it
seemed to
me that was what the "anti-trust" laws were all about. But, IANAL, so I
might be way
off base in my thoughts on the matter.
At 09:56 PM 4/23/03 -0500, you wrote:
On Wednesday, April 23, 2003, at 08:40 PM, Mail List
wrote:
That's right here in the next town over. If
it's an open courtroom I could
go over there and check it out.
I don't know about eBay and patent infringement, but I think eBay
has a monopoly on the online auction market for private individuals
which might warrant anti-trust action. I don't think a private individual
The fact that an entity may be the only viable player on a given field
doesn't "warrant anti-trust action." If eBay is actively doing anything
to hinder their competition, other than doing what they do VERY well, and
marketing it well, *that* might warrant action.
would be able to sell many types of items anymore
through a classified
ad, and if they tried to use another online auction service, would do so
poorly, that if they would like to do the best they can, just about have no
I sell goods all the time on the austin.forsale newsgroup. As far as
I'm concerned, eBay is an *asset* to that, not a detraction. eBay is the
de facto Blue Book for used/surplus goods, allowing me to decide if my
property is salable, whether it's worth more in cash than as a
possession, and how to price it. It also shortstops lowballing by
prospective customers. Naturally, it isn't the only resource I use, but
it a very convenient and extremely well-organized asset for any seller,
and for any buyer of either local or online goods.
choice but to list on eBay. Also, eBay has such
power in this arena
these days, i.e. no other online auction service for the private individual
seems to be able to compete very well with them, that they got the
sellers by the "nads". They don't seem to be very interested in the
performance of their customers, i.e. the sellers. That's why I don't offer
anything for sale on eBay anymore. I only buy on eBay these days.
As far as I can tell, and I haven't heard even a rumor of eBay
leveraging their weight against the competition, the only reason the
other online auction services aren't getting action is that they suck.
Doc
8:33 p.m.
New subject: Getting long; Was Re: eBay being sued over patent infringement
On Wednesday, April 23, 2003, at 11:05 PM, Mail List wrote:
Yahoo Auctions is the only other one I've really spent time on
lately, and at least as far as Yahoo goes, I submit that you have put
the cart before the horse. In my view, the reason they don't seem to
have much variety or volume of interesting items for sale is that they
suck. Their search engine is very poor, navigation of the categories
is a nightmare, and they host far too much extraneous advertising.
That's a patently ridiculous statement, the fact that it is made
often notwithstanding. I _will_ grant that items often sell for far
more than I would pay. But Bennett, the *definition* of market value
is the price that the available buyer is willing to pay.
eBay prices may be inflated, from a professional dealer's or an
experienced hobbyist's perspective. For auction prices to be
*artificially* inflated, as a general condition, is simply impossible,
unless you assume consistent, fraudulent price-fixing.
Now that's just a huge red herring,and doesn't fit at all. Honestly?
I use MS products maybe once a month. Nothing to do with fashion - I
just prefer a secure and stable computing platform. MS *doesn't* do
their job well, although they market it well.
As far as anti-trust issues are concerned, Microsoft was not charged
with having too large a share of the market. MS was charged with
exerting undue influence - active coercion - on their customers, using
that market share as leverage.
eBay has never even been accused of coercing their customers to do
anything, and I flatly fail to see that as being even possible. To
claim that their paying customers, the eBay sellers, have no other
venue is laughable.
The anti-trust laws are about using market share, and absence of
viable competitors, to exert undue or unwarranted influence on that
market.
eBay is the Goliath they are because they provide a good product, not
because of unethical practices. [Like Jeffrey Worley said, "Yet"]
To go with your metaphor, all it takes is one David with a better
idea to bring them down to size.
Doc
the only
reason the other online auction services aren't getting
action is that they
suck.
They definitely do. But the reason they suck is that the others don't
seem to have much
variety or volume of interesting items for sale. eBay is the de
facto Blue Book for used/surplus goods
Yet on this very same mailing list, many have said eBay prices are
"artificially" inflated, etc. and that Michael's book is the more accurate
guide to true market
value. It really
does still end up boiling down to each individuals perspective as eBay
buyer's, eBay
seller's, and hobbyist's goals vary quite widely.
Well, yeah. As I said, I do use other pricing tools. I match my
pricing to my market, and my market to the price I need. For instance,
I have a stack of HP C160 workstations I'd like to sell. I won't put
them on eBay, because the shipping will exceed the probable selling
price, the size of the machine make them a mother to crate, and I'd get
a barrage of "I'll buy it if you'll just send me X part" requests.
I'll sell them locally, on the newsgroup, for a little less than I'd
get on eBay. On those, convenience is the bottom line, not the dollar
value.
Further, who the prospective buyer is makes a difference. J Random
Idjit will pay eBay prices. Hobbyists I've traded with or expect to
trade with get deep discounts from market wholesale. The resellers I
deal with pay wholesale, or more often trade at wholesale.
If I have to get market, I offer it to friends and lists at near eBay
prices, explaining the cash crunch, then eBay it. That's the case with
the Laserbus and XMI gear I'm about to put on the market.
Some buyers will pay 3x or 4x retail, if I'll sell to them at all. I
have a very long memory, and my temper takes precedence over my wallet
every time.
I heard that with them being the Goliath that they
are, they bought
out and absorbed
most of their potentially serious competitors.
Not illegal, or even unethical, as long as it's done within SEC regs,
and other federal guidelines.
other than
doing what they do VERY well, and marketing it well
Wouldn't that definition fit Microsoft as well. ( Being honest, and
not just bashing
Microsoft because it's the popular thing to do ). Yet Microsoft was
brought up on
anti-trust charges. > The fact that an entity may be the only viable
player on a given
field
doesn't
"warrant anti-trust action."
If they were the only player that wanted to play, that would surely be
so. But if almost
no competition can make a dent in the market against such a Goliath,
it seemed to
me that was what the "anti-trust" laws were all about. But, IANAL, so
I might be way
off base in my thoughts on the matter.
24 Apr
24 Apr
5:34 a.m.
New subject: Getting long; Was Re: eBay being sued over patent infringement
Doc,
Yahoo Auctions is the only other one I've really
spent time on lately
I was checking Yahoo periodically for some items. While eBay had
a full page or two every day, Yahoo usually had not a single one. I
finally just gave up because soon seemed a waste of time.
eBay prices may be inflated, from a professional
dealer's or an experienced
hobbyist's perspective.
I'm quite happy with eBay prices, though only occasionally the product quality
is poor, or items are unfortunately sometimes mis-described.
For auction prices to be *artificially* inflated, as
a general
condition, is simply
impossible, unless you assume consistent, fraudulent
price-fixing.
Not impossible. There is the potential for the occasional abuse in "shill
bidding", etc.
But, perhaps I should not have said "artifically" It was only a
restatement of what
I thought I had understood that some other people thought that this was so.
MS was charged with exerting undue influence - active
coercion - on
their customers,
using that market share as leverage.
No one ever had to buy Microsoft products. They always could have gone with the
Macintosh platform, or a Unix system.
eBay has never even been accused of coercing their
customers to do anything
Just as no one has to buy or sell on eBay. But for an interesting read on
some of
eBay's customer's viewpoints, scan the eBay DNF message board every time
eBay comes up with a new way to charge their sellers more money for another
new "feature". They aren't all wonderfully overjoyed with eBay. eBay also
has monitors
that monitor that message board, and they suspended "Tag" for voicing an
opinion
they didn't wish heard.
The anti-trust laws are about using market share, and
absence of viable
competitors,
to exert undue or unwarranted influence on that
market.
eBay market share is the largest by a landfall.
No other online auction service seems to be a viable competitor.
eBay has become a very serious marketplace. There is Federal oversight on the
stock and commodities markets. eBay has gotten to be such a big thing these
days, oversight over the online auction market might be needed someday too.
At 12:31 AM 4/24/03 -0500, you wrote:
On Wednesday, April 23, 2003, at 11:05 PM, Mail List
wrote:
Yahoo Auctions is the only other one I've really spent time on lately,
and at least as far as Yahoo goes, I submit that you have put the cart
before the horse. In my view, the reason they don't seem to have much
variety or volume of interesting items for sale is that they suck. Their
search engine is very poor, navigation of the categories is a nightmare,
and they host far too much extraneous advertising.
That's a patently ridiculous statement, the fact that it is made often
notwithstanding. I _will_ grant that items often sell for far more than
I would pay. But Bennett, the *definition* of market value is the price
that the available buyer is willing to pay.
eBay prices may be inflated, from a professional dealer's or an
experienced hobbyist's perspective. For auction prices to be
*artificially* inflated, as a general condition, is simply impossible,
unless you assume consistent, fraudulent price-fixing.
Now that's just a huge red herring,and doesn't fit at
all. Honestly? I use MS products maybe once a month. Nothing to do
with fashion - I just prefer a secure and stable computing platform. MS
*doesn't* do their job well, although they market it well.
As far as anti-trust issues are concerned, Microsoft was not charged
with having too large a share of the market. MS was charged with
exerting undue influence - active coercion - on their customers, using
that market share as leverage.
eBay has never even been accused of coercing their customers to do
anything, and I flatly fail to see that as being even possible. To claim
that their paying customers, the eBay sellers, have no other venue is
laughable.
The anti-trust laws are about using market share, and absence of viable
competitors, to exert undue or unwarranted influence on that market.
eBay is the Goliath they are because they provide a good product, not
because of unethical practices. [Like Jeffrey Worley said, "Yet"]
To go with your metaphor, all it takes is one David with a better idea
to bring them down to size.
Doc
the only
reason the other online auction services aren't getting
action is that they
suck.
They definitely do. But the reason they suck is that the others don't
seem to have much
variety or volume of interesting items for sale. eBay is
the de facto Blue Book for used/surplus goods
Yet on this very same mailing list, many have said eBay prices are
"artificially" inflated, etc. and that Michael's book is the more
accurate guide to true market
value. It really
does still end up boiling down to each individuals perspective as eBay
buyer's, eBay
seller's, and hobbyist's goals vary quite widely.
Well, yeah. As I said, I do use other pricing tools. I match my
pricing to my market, and my market to the price I need. For instance, I
have a stack of HP C160 workstations I'd like to sell. I won't put them
on eBay, because the shipping will exceed the probable selling price, the
size of the machine make them a mother to crate, and I'd get a barrage of
"I'll buy it if you'll just send me X part" requests.
I'll sell them locally, on the newsgroup, for a little less than I'd get
on eBay. On those, convenience is the bottom line, not the dollar value.
Further, who the prospective buyer is makes a difference. J Random
Idjit will pay eBay prices. Hobbyists I've traded with or expect to
trade with get deep discounts from market wholesale. The resellers I
deal with pay wholesale, or more often trade at wholesale.
If I have to get market, I offer it to friends and lists at near eBay
prices, explaining the cash crunch, then eBay it. That's the case with
the Laserbus and XMI gear I'm about to put on the market.
Some buyers will pay 3x or 4x retail, if I'll sell to them at all. I
have a very long memory, and my temper takes precedence over my wallet
every time.
I heard that with them being the Goliath that they
are, they bought out
and absorbed
most of their potentially serious competitors.
Not illegal, or even unethical, as long as it's done within SEC regs,
and other federal guidelines.
other
than doing what they do VERY well, and marketing it well
Wouldn't that definition fit Microsoft as well. ( Being honest, and not
just bashing
Microsoft because it's the popular thing to do ). Yet Microsoft was
brought up on
anti-trust charges. The fact
that an entity may be the only viable player on a given field
doesn't "warrant anti-trust action."
If they were the only player that wanted to play, that would surely be
so. But if almost
no competition can make a dent in the market against such a Goliath, it
seemed to
me that was what the "anti-trust" laws were all about. But, IANAL, so I
might be way
off base in my thoughts on the matter. 
23 Apr
23 Apr
7:39 p.m.
I agree wholeheartedly with Doc.
It is one thing to have a type of service , and another entirely to have
one which excludes certain users, types of users, or otherwise prevents
free trade. Ebay is not (yet) a member of this group. They have done
nothing wrong (Yet).
Just because they are successful doesn't justify antitrust action.
Best.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-admin(a)classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Doc Shipley
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 10:57 PM
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: eBay being sued over patent infringement
On Wednesday, April 23, 2003, at 08:40 PM, Mail List wrote:
That's right here in the next town over. If
it's an open courtroom I
could
go over there and check it out.
I don't know about eBay and patent infringement, but I think eBay
has a monopoly on the online auction market for private individuals
which might warrant anti-trust action. I don't think a private
individual
The fact that an entity may be the only viable player on a given
field doesn't "warrant anti-trust action." If eBay is actively doing
anything to hinder their competition, other than doing what they do
VERY well, and marketing it well, *that* might warrant action.
would be able to sell many types of items anymore
through a classified
ad, and if they tried to use another online auction service, would do
so
poorly, that if they would like to do the best they can, just about
have no
I sell goods all the time on the austin.forsale newsgroup. As far as
I'm concerned, eBay is an *asset* to that, not a detraction. eBay is
the de facto Blue Book for used/surplus goods, allowing me to decide if
my property is salable, whether it's worth more in cash than as a
possession, and how to price it. It also shortstops lowballing by
prospective customers. Naturally, it isn't the only resource I use,
but it a very convenient and extremely well-organized asset for any
seller, and for any buyer of either local or online goods.
choice but to list on eBay. Also, eBay has such power
in this arena
these days, i.e. no other online auction service for the private
individual
seems to be able to compete very well with them, that they got the
sellers by the "nads". They don't seem to be very interested in the
performance of their customers, i.e. the sellers. That's why I don't
offer
anything for sale on eBay anymore. I only buy on eBay these days.
As far as I can tell, and I haven't heard even a rumor of eBay
leveraging their weight against the competition, the only reason the
other online auction services aren't getting action is that they suck.
Doc
24 Apr
24 Apr
12:04 p.m.
At 09:56 PM 4/23/03 -0500, you wrote:
On Wednesday, April 23, 2003, at 08:40 PM, Mail List
wrote:
They are, the state of Illinois? has a new law that was pushed through
with the help of ebay requiring the operators of any Internet auction site
to register with that state "if any potential sellers or buyers reside
within the state" at a fee of $200. of course you also have to find an
auctioneer to "sponsor" you and you have to take state approved courses to
maintain the registration (auction calling, and the like) :( the state is
getting ready to start filing civil lawsuits seeking damages of up to
$10,000 and the shutting down of the offending sites if you don't comply.
For small auction site operators like my wife (she hasn't made any $ from
the thing yet and it's been running for > 6 months) that state's
requirements are onerous.
That's right here in the next town over. If
it's an open courtroom I could
go over there and check it out.
I don't know about eBay and patent infringement, but I think eBay
has a monopoly on the online auction market for private individuals
which might warrant anti-trust action. I don't think a private individual
The fact that an entity may be the only viable player on a given field
doesn't "warrant anti-trust action." If eBay is actively doing anything
to hinder their competition, other than doing what they do VERY well, and
marketing it well, *that* might warrant action.
12:32 p.m.
On Thursday, April 24, 2003, at 04:08 PM, Geoff Reed wrote:
They are, the state of Illinois? has a new law that was pushed
through with the help of ebay requiring the operators of any Internet
auction site to register with that state "if any potential sellers or
buyers reside within the state" at a fee of $200. of course you also
have to find an auctioneer to "sponsor" you and you have to take state
approved courses to maintain the registration (auction calling, and
the like) :( the state is getting ready to start filing civil
lawsuits seeking damages of up to $10,000 and the shutting down of the
offending sites if you don't comply.
You have to take a *calling* class to run an online auction?
That does sound really fishy, especially considering eBay's
participation. Why is nobody fighting it?
Doc
1:53 p.m.
Geoff,
For small auction site operators like my wife
So tell us how to find your wife's site, and perhaps some among us
might check it out.
At 02:08 PM 4/24/03 -0700, you wrote:
At 09:56 PM 4/23/03 -0500, you wrote:
On Wednesday, April 23, 2003, at 08:40 PM, Mail
List wrote:
They are, the state of Illinois? has a new law that was pushed through
with the help of ebay requiring the operators of any Internet auction site
to register with that state "if any potential sellers or buyers reside
within the state" at a fee of $200. of course you also have to find an
auctioneer to "sponsor" you and you have to take state approved courses to
maintain the registration (auction calling, and the like) :( the state is
getting ready to start filing civil lawsuits seeking damages of up to
$10,000 and the shutting down of the offending sites if you don't comply.
For small auction site operators like my wife (she hasn't made any $
from the thing yet and it's been running for > 6 months) that state's
requirements are onerous. That's right here in the next town over. If
it's an open courtroom I could
go over there and check it out.
I don't know about eBay and patent infringement, but I think eBay
has a monopoly on the online auction market for private individuals
which might warrant anti-trust action. I don't think a private individual
The fact that an entity may be the only viable player on a given field
doesn't "warrant anti-trust action." If eBay is actively doing anything
to hinder their competition, other than doing what they do VERY well,
and marketing it well, *that* might warrant action.
7762
days inactive
7763
days old
9 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
geoffr＠zipcon.net -
mail.list＠analog-and-digital-solutions.com -
Technoid＠30below.com -
vcf＠siconic.com