11 Jun
2003
11 Jun
'03
4:29 p.m.
At 10:01 PM 6/11/03 -0500, you wrote:
On 10 Jun 2003, Barry Skidmore wrote:
Get yourself a Dec-Rainbow to format them :) or the Pro380 IIRC will
format RX-50's :)
I am looking for blank disks to use in a DEC RX50
drive. I have seen
posted several places that DD disks can be used, but so far my attempts
to initialize Verbatim DS/DD disks under RT-11 have failed:
"?DUP-F-Size function failed"
You can't format RX50's with any Dec PDP-11 hardware. You probably can
with a VAXstation 2000, or using a PC and the proper software - there's
instructions for doing it under Linux with a 1.2MB floppy drive and DSDD
disks on the web. If you want to I can probably find them. 
13 Jun
13 Jun
1:20 a.m.
Geoff Reed wrote:
On 10 Jun 2003, Barry Skidmore wrote:
I am looking for blank disks to use in a DEC RX50 drive. I have seen
posted several places that DD disks can be used, but so far my attempts
to initialize Verbatim DS/DD disks under RT-11 have failed:
"?DUP-F-Size function failed"
You can't format RX50's with any
Dec PDP-11 hardware. You probably can
with a VAXstation 2000, or using a PC and the proper software - there's
instructions for doing it under Linux with a 1.2MB floppy drive and DSDD
disks on the web. If you want to I can probably find them. 
1 Jul
1 Jul
1:45 a.m.
New subject: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...
... yes, the one closer to Fremont on the opposite site of the bay of Silicon
Valley. I came down
the highway from Almeda on the east side of the bay just south of Oakland.
I must say, I like Fry's, and those that were badmouthing the place were a
little over the top in
my opinion.
Sure, the avreage salesman didn't know squat about computers and I could see
where one could have
a return mightmare. But, my experience was not bad and I actually enjoyed it.
The prices were as good
or better than Best Buy and the selection was better.
Eric
2:58 a.m.
New subject: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...
Good day,
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
On 01-Jul-03 at 01:59 Eric Chomko wrote:
... yes, the one closer to Fremont on the opposite site
of the bay of
Silicon
Valley. I came down
the highway from Almeda on the east side of the bay just south of Oakland.
That would be 'Alameda.' ;-)
I must say, I like Fry's, and those that were
badmouthing the place were a
little over the top in my opinion.
I never said I didn't like them (though I do appreciate the jokes about them that
keep circulating). However, before you decide that those who bad-mouth the place are
"over the top," you should probably have a look at this link:
http://www.doofus.org/frys/
I would also add that I have a set of ground rules for shopping at Fry's, ground
rules that I rarely, if ever, break.
(1) Know EXACTLY what you're going after, and even (approximately) what part of the
store it's likely to be found in.
(2) NEVER ask a sales 'droid for more than basic navigational directions (example:
'Where can I find the software aisle?')
(3) NEVER take as Gospel anything a sales 'droid tells you about a given product.
Know enough about what you're doing to know what you're buying, and what it can
and cannot do.
(4) ALWAYS check the seal on the package of what you're buying. Fry's has been
known to repackage returns without even a basic checkout, and toss them right back on the
shelf.
(5) Know your market! Make sure that what you're buying is not available elsewhere,
for a lower price.
(6) If you're going after one of their 'open-box' specials, CHECK IT
CAREFULLY to make sure it has all the accessories it should!
Now, with all that said, I will say that I have gotten some good deals at Fry's in
times past. My anti-static electronics vacuum cleaner (the one from 3M) came from them, at
a reduced price because it was an 'open box' special. I never regretted that
purchase.
I'm also glad this thread came up. It serves as a reminder to me to go check on our
new Fry's branch up in Renton. They're supposed to be opening in the next few
days.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy,
Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com
ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com
"I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior
to what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk)
3:09 a.m.
New subject: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...
And thusly Bruce Lane spake:
On 01-Jul-03 at 01:59 Eric Chomko wrote:
Hmmm.... for some reason Star Trek IV comes to mind... ;)
Cheers,
Bryan
... yes, the one closer to Fremont on the opposite
site of the bay of
Silicon
Valley. I came down
the highway from Almeda on the east side of the bay just south of Oakland.
That would be 'Alameda.' ;-) 
3:36 a.m.
New subject: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...
And thusly Bruce Lane spake:
Is that where the nulcear wessels are? *runs away*
g.
On 01-Jul-03 at 01:59 Eric Chomko wrote:
Hmmm.... for some reason Star Trek IV comes to mind... ;)
... yes, the one closer to Fremont on the opposite
site of the bay of
Silicon
Valley. I came down
the highway from Almeda on the east side of the bay just south of Oakland.
That would be 'Alameda.' ;-) 
3:28 a.m.
New subject: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Eric Chomko wrote:
I must say, I like Fry's, and those that were
badmouthing the place were a
little over the top in my opinion.
Of course. That's what you think when you go in for the first time. Try
being a regular, then re-visit your opinion.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
3:48 a.m.
New subject: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...
I hate Fry's. (or hated, I don't live within 8000 miles of one now)...
Just wait till you have to get some faulty part replaced...
At 08:19 01/07/2003 -0700, you wrote:
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Eric Chomko wrote:
[---------]
"Homer, we don't have to have sex."
"Yes we do, the cookie told me so."
"Deserts aren't always right Homer."
"But they're so delicious."
Website: retrobbs.org
BBS: telnet bbs.retrobbs.org 2323
Tradewars: telnet tradewars.retrobbs.org
[---------]
I must say, I like Fry's, and those that were
badmouthing the place were a
little over the top in my opinion.
Of course. That's what you think when you go in for the first time. Try
being a regular, then re-visit your opinion.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * 
4:01 a.m.
New subject: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...
Hey if your lazy like me you will find places on the net to mailorder
anything and have it dropped off at your house for cheaper then what you can
buy it new with tax at the store. I would die without www.google.com.
On a side note does anybody else get the feeling that UPS, USPS, and FEDEX
love EBAY because of all the $1.99 treasures you find there that cost $5-XXX
or more for shipping to get it to your house?
I have found many retro computer bargains on ebay where a large percentage
of the total purchase price was in shipping.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Firestone" <nedry(a)mail.bedlambells.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...
I hate Fry's. (or hated, I don't live within
8000 miles of one now)...
Just wait till you have to get some faulty part replaced...
At 08:19 01/07/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Eric Chomko wrote:
>
> > I must say, I like Fry's, and those that were badmouthing the place
were a
> > little over the top in my opinion.
>
>Of course. That's what you think when you go in for the first time. Try
>being a regular, then re-visit your opinion.
>
>--
>
>Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
>
> * Old computing resources for business and academia at
www.VintageTech.com *
[---------]
"Homer, we don't have to have sex."
"Yes we do, the cookie told me so."
"Deserts aren't always right Homer."
"But they're so delicious."
Website: retrobbs.org
BBS: telnet bbs.retrobbs.org 2323
Tradewars: telnet tradewars.retrobbs.org
[---------]
5:05 a.m.
New subject: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...
On a side note does anybody else get the feeling that
UPS, USPS, and FEDEX
love EBAY because of all the $1.99 treasures you find there that cost $5-XXX
or more for shipping to get it to your house?
I have found many retro computer bargains on ebay where a large percentage
of the total purchase price was in shipping.
UPS the real .com success story.
Zane
--
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
6:35 a.m.
New subject: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Zane H. Healy wrote:
You mean besides eBay itself? :)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
On a side note
does anybody else get the feeling that UPS, USPS, and FEDEX
love EBAY because of all the $1.99 treasures you find there that cost $5-XXX
or more for shipping to get it to your house?
I have found many retro computer bargains on ebay where a large percentage
of the total purchase price was in shipping.
UPS the real .com success story. 
6 Jul
6 Jul
3 a.m.
New subject: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...
In message <009401c33fe9$650bae20$347ca418(a)neo.rr.com>
"TeoZ" <teoz(a)neo.rr.com> wrote:
I have found many retro computer bargains on ebay
where a large percentage
of the total purchase price was in shipping.
This is admittedly OT, but I bought a
second-hand autowinder for one of my
cameras a few days ago. It was sent via (British) Royal Mail's "Special
Delivery" service, i.e. it arrives before 12-noon or you get the postage fee
back. Well, my autowinder arrived OK, but the box was mangled (thank %DEITY
for bubblewrap) and it arrived at, you guessed it, 12:51 PM. And to top it
all off, the parcelmonkey didn't bother to knock - he/she/it just shoved a
"Come down to the depot to pick up your parcel" card through the door. If it
happens again, I'm going to play a fun game of "scream at the customer
[dis]services rep"...
Later.
--
Phil.
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/
... Reactance: your imaginary friend.
1 Jul
1 Jul
4:44 p.m.
New subject: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Eric Chomko wrote:
Sellam loved George Bush the first time he saw him, then the
introspection started.
I must say, I like Fry's, and those that were
badmouthing the place
were a little over the top in my opinion.
Of course. That's what you think when you go in for the
first time. Try being a regular, then re-visit your opinion.
2 Jul
2 Jul
8:54 a.m.
New subject: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...
Well, just add todays 'real Life' strip to that:
http://www.reallifecomics.com/index.php?do_command=show_strip&strip_id=…
:)
--
VCF Europa 5.0 am 01./02. Mai 2004 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/
1 Jul
1 Jul
3:57 a.m.
New subject: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Eric Chomko wrote:
I must say, I like Fry's, and those that were
badmouthing the place were a
little over the top in
my opinion.
So,...
One experience with no disasters invalidates all previous discussion.
"I've been using Windoze for almost twenty minutes, and it hasn't ever
'blue-screened'"
6 Jul
6 Jul
2:59 a.m.
New subject: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...
In message <20030701084856.Q32495(a)newshell.lmi.net>
Fred Cisin <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> wrote:
"I've been using Windoze for almost twenty
minutes, and it hasn't ever
'blue-screened'"
So? I've been using RISC OS and Linux all day and
neither of them have
BSODded, died horribly or crashed.
And ISTR my ISP has a Solaris server that's been up 24/7 for over six
months...
Later.
--
Phil.
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/
... The current limits placed are based on resistance
3:24 a.m.
New subject: Windoze crash (was Re: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...)
My experience is that the people who have problems with Windows are the
people who *want* to have problems with Windows. I have several Win2K boxen
here whose only reason for being rebooted every few months is robbing
harddrives or CD drives. I also have Linux boxen here, one that currently
has an uptime of 187 days. No major record, but it got a new 60GB HD back
then.
I use Windows pretty hard, with a fairly constant set of software (mapping,
CAD software, IE, ProComm, CD ripping, a few other things), and I don't get
BSODs or crashes.
Perhaps this person should switch an an OS more suited to their expectations.
Like pencil and paper.
--John
On Sunday 06 July 2003 10:52 am, Philip Pemberton wrote:
In message
<20030701084856.Q32495(a)newshell.lmi.net>
Fred Cisin <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> wrote:
"I've been using Windoze for almost
twenty minutes, and it hasn't ever
'blue-screened'"
So? I've been using RISC OS and Linux all day and neither of them have
BSODded, died horribly or crashed.
And ISTR my ISP has a Solaris server that's been up 24/7 for over six
months...
Later. 
4:09 a.m.
New subject: Windoze crash (was Re: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...)
On Sun, 6 Jul 2003, J.C. Wren wrote:
My experience is that the people who have problems
with Windows are the
people who *want* to have problems with Windows.
I must second that.
I have several Win2K boxen
here whose only reason for being rebooted every few months is robbing
harddrives or CD drives.
Um, or for redoing power lines/ups maint. Like I had to
shut down the
lot here this weekend, because of ups/power maint in my machine room.
I use Windows pretty hard, with a fairly constant set
of software (mapping,
CAD software, IE, ProComm, CD ripping, a few other things), and I don't get
BSODs or crashes.
Likewise. Fucked-up drivers are sometimes an issue, especially
those
for network, sound and video, but if you're careful with those, no real
BSOD-ish situations.
Like pencil and paper.
Pencils tend to break
their tips, at least when I use them. Duh.
Does that count as a bug? ;)
Cheers,
Fred
9:17 a.m.
New subject: Windoze crash (was Re: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...)
In message <Pine.BSO.4.44.0307061801500.20123-100000(a)vaxlab.pdp11.nl>
"Fred N. van Kempen" <waltje(a)pdp11.nl> wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jul 2003, J.C. Wren wrote:
I find the "big guys" like Creative are utterly crap
when it comes to drivers
and tech support. "There's nothing wrong with the driver, it must be your
PC." Oh, is that why I saw a good hundred people badmouthing a certain
Soundblaster on the newsgroups?
Well, speaking of SBs, I had an AWE64. The PnP E2PROM got trashed by a bug in
their driver. Their "techie" said, and I quote:
"Well, your guarantee's void. You used unapproved drivers and it broke, so
you're on your own".
I asked how they could tell that I had used unapproved drivers. The techie
said "Well, you obviously used the beta drivers on our website, 'cos that's
a
known bug". Despite the fact that at this point I had no internet access and
had heard many a horror story about beta drivers...
Then there was the fun I had with a D-Link network card (based on a Realtek
chipset). Here's a tip - grab Realtek's latest driver kit and install it. I
had lost packets, Windows networking errors, you name it. Upgraded the
drivers and the network card suddenly started working properly...
Later.
--
Phil.
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/
Error 8472. Borg dumped.
CAD software, IE, ProComm, CD ripping, a few
other things), and I don't get
BSODs or crashes.
Likewise. Fucked-up drivers are sometimes an issue, especially
those
for network, sound and video, but if you're careful with those, no real
BSOD-ish situations. 
9:28 a.m.
New subject: OT: Realtek; Was Re: Windoze crash (was Re: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...)
Philip Pemberton wrote:
Then there was the fun I had with a D-Link network
card (based on a Realtek
chipset). Here's a tip - grab Realtek's latest driver kit and install it. I
had lost packets, Windows networking errors, you name it. Upgraded the
drivers and the network card suddenly started working properly...
I have a better tip - don't buy Realtek. Period. They're not
horrible for casual use, say a single box surfing over cable or DSL, but
on a high-traffic connection, they eat a *lot* of CPU time. The Realtek
chipsets offload a lot of the packet processing to the main CPU, just
like a Winmodem.
Doc
9:45 a.m.
New subject: OT: Realtek; Was Re: Windoze crash (was Re: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...)
In message <3F089393.5060101(a)mdrconsult.com>
Doc <doc(a)mdrconsult.com> wrote:
I have a better tip - don't buy Realtek.
Period. They're not
horrible for casual use, say a single box surfing over cable or DSL, but
on a high-traffic connection, they eat a *lot* of CPU time. The Realtek
chipsets offload a lot of the packet processing to the main CPU, just
like a Winmodem.
I've got a 3com Etherlink-III (3C509) ISA-bus board in the
router/server
machine, an EL3 in one of the other machines, an Intel PRO-100 PCI in
storage and the DLink in one of the PCs. Oh, and there's an i-cubed
EtherLAN600 (Winbond chipset ISTR) in the RiscPC...
Later.
--
Phil.
philpem(a)dsl.pipex.com
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/
... The current limits placed are based on resistance
10:03 a.m.
New subject: PDP-11 hardware & software usage poll
Hi All,
For those of you who don't follow alt.sys.pdp11: I set up
a simple web page to start an inventory poll on the number
and types of PDP-11 systems used by hobbyists, the operating
systems in use on them, and what, if any, licenses are being
used for those systems.
All this has to do with the whole Mentec not having a license
program for the PDP-11 R* operaing systems (RT, RSX and RSTS).
After some discussion with Mentec, the site was set up to do
the gathering of numbers so we can convince their Management
that there are many systems in hobby use, and that there's
enough people willing to aquire such a license.
Please check out
http://www.pdp11.nl/poll.htm
and do your magic. None of the information provided will be
transferred to anyone- only the summarized info will be made
available in a report to Mentec - a copy of which you can
request by requesting the 'feedbeck' stuff in the poll.
Thanks, and spread the word !
Fred
7 Jul
7 Jul
12:01 a.m.
New subject: PDP-11 hardware & software usage poll
You've got my vote. I'll try to contact my friend (who has my actual PDP
11/23) and get him to vote as well...
Take Care,
Mark
At 23:59 06/07/2003 +0200, you wrote:
Hi All,
For those of you who don't follow alt.sys.pdp11: I set up
a simple web page to start an inventory poll on the number
and types of PDP-11 systems used by hobbyists, the operating
systems in use on them, and what, if any, licenses are being
used for those systems.
All this has to do with the whole Mentec not having a license
program for the PDP-11 R* operaing systems (RT, RSX and RSTS).
After some discussion with Mentec, the site was set up to do
the gathering of numbers so we can convince their Management
that there are many systems in hobby use, and that there's
enough people willing to aquire such a license.
Please check out
http://www.pdp11.nl/poll.htm
and do your magic. None of the information provided will be
transferred to anyone- only the summarized info will be made
available in a report to Mentec - a copy of which you can
request by requesting the 'feedbeck' stuff in the poll.
Thanks, and spread the word !
Fred
[---------]
"Homer, we don't have to have sex."
"Yes we do, the cookie told me so."
"Deserts aren't always right Homer."
"But they're so delicious."
Website: retrobbs.org
BBS: telnet bbs.retrobbs.org 2323
Tradewars: telnet tradewars.retrobbs.org
[---------]
6 Jul
6 Jul
9:54 a.m.
New subject: OT: Realtek; Was Re: Windoze crash (was Re: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...)
Welcome to Driver Hell.
10:18 a.m.
New subject: OT: Realtek; Was Re: Windoze crash (was Re: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...)
Interesting. I have had very odd performance with Realtek cards on FreeBSD.
So much so that I stopped using them. I've also had some of the same
problems with certain older 3com cards. Soon as I put in a modern card, all
problems disappeared.
The basic gist of the problems was sporadically very very poor throughput,
then suddenly great throughput. It SEEMED almost like a 10/100 duplex
mismatch, but it wasn't.
Jay West
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Cisin" <cisin(a)xenosoft.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: OT: Realtek; Was Re: Windoze crash (was Re: Well, I was at
Fry's in CA...)
Welcome to Driver Hell.
10:35 a.m.
New subject: OT: Realtek; Was Re: Windoze crash (was Re: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...)
Jay West wrote:
The basic gist of the problems was sporadically very
very poor throughput,
then suddenly great throughput. It SEEMED almost like a 10/100 duplex
mismatch, but it wasn't.
We had a client who, after spending ~$2000 on a firewall PC,
populated it with $9 Realtek cards. 1 outside interface and 4 inside.
It was running Linux, a v2.4.17 kernel. The thing ran all the internal
interfaces at near saturated levels, and was showing 1.2-2.5 system
loads (up to 2.5 processes waiting on CPU time). They were losing a lot
of packets.
After I talked them into replacing the Realtek cards with 3Com
3C905s, system load dropped to 0.1-0.6, and no more dropped packets. I
got curious and set up a Win2k testbed with 3 Realteks, and saw the same
behavior under load. You could literally see the CPU load in Task
Manager rise as the network traffic increased.
They're Win-NICs. It's not a driver issue, it's the way they're
designed.
Doc
10:49 a.m.
New subject: OT: Realtek; Was Re: Windoze crash (was Re: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...)
On Sun, 6 Jul 2003, Doc wrote:
They're Win-NICs. It's not a driver issue,
it's the way they're
designed.
Realtek chipsets indeed act like Winmodem (LT) modem chipsets
do for modems: minimize the amount of hardware needed (to save
money on that), and do as much as possible in the (driver)
software. Meaning, fairly large, complex and cpu-intensive
driver code.
--fred
7 Jul
7 Jul
7:19 a.m.
New subject: Windoze crash (was Re: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...)
On Sun, Jul 06, 2003 at 10:11:54PM +0100, Philip Pemberton wrote:
Then there was the fun I had with a D-Link network card (based on a Realtek
chipset). Here's a tip - grab Realtek's latest driver kit and install it. I
had lost packets, Windows networking errors, you name it. Upgraded the
drivers and the network card suddenly started working properly...
The best place for a Realtek network card is in the trashcan. Period. Do
not buy this crap.
The FreeBSD kernel driver for this card is cursing it explicitly:
* The RealTek 8139 PCI NIC redefines the meaning of 'low end.' This is
* probably the worst PCI ethernet controller ever made, with the
* possible
* exception of the FEAST chip made by SMC. The 8139 supports bus-master
* DMA, but it has a terrible interface that nullifies any performance
* gains that bus-master DMA usually offers.
*
* It's impossible given this rotten design to really achieve decent
* performance at 100Mbps, unless you happen to have a 400Mhz PII or
* some equally overmuscled CPU to drive it.
And I had one of the buggers running in a server (not my choice, I
replaced it later with a 3Com) - and the crap thing randomly decided
that no, it didn't want to talk to the network at all. Pulling the
ethernet cable and reinserting it usually reset the card enough to get
it speaking again. Not exactly acceptable behaviour, so it got junked
and replaced with a 3Com 3C905C which never caused us any trouble.
Regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
6 Jul
6 Jul
5:22 a.m.
New subject: Windoze crash (was Re: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...)
On Sun, 6 Jul 2003, J.C. Wren wrote:
My experience is that the people who have problems
with Windows are the
people who *want* to have problems with Windows. I have several Win2K boxen
here whose only reason for being rebooted every few months is robbing
harddrives or CD drives. I also have Linux boxen here, one that currently
has an uptime of 187 days. No major record, but it got a new 60GB HD back
then.
I use Windows pretty hard, with a fairly constant set of software (mapping,
CAD software, IE, ProComm, CD ripping, a few other things), and I don't get
BSODs or crashes.
Perhaps this person should switch an an OS more suited to their expectations.
Like pencil and paper.
Congratulations.
YOU haven't had a problem, so you deny that any such problems exist.
To quote one of our other readers, "YOU ARE AN ASS."
On Sunday 06 July 2003 10:52 am, Philip Pemberton
wrote:
> In message <20030701084856.Q32495(a)newshell.lmi.net>
>
> Fred Cisin <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> wrote:
> > "I've been using Windoze for almost twenty minutes, and it hasn't
ever
> > 'blue-screened'"
>
> So? I've been using RISC OS and Linux all day and neither of them have
> BSODded, died horribly or crashed.
> And ISTR my ISP has a Solaris server that's been up 24/7 for over six
> months...
>
> Later.
6:51 a.m.
New subject: Windoze crash (was Re: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...)
Don't give me that crap. I've been using personal computers since CP/M 2.2,
and whel you may have been doing it longer, I think that's damn well long
enough for me to recognize trends.
Yes, "normal" people have Windows problems now and again also. MY experience
shows that people who have the most problem are those that seem to be already
biased against Windows/MS, and are looking for problems.
You don't like my theory, too bad. To quote yourself: "YOU ARE AN ASS."
--John
On Sunday 06 July 2003 13:17 pm, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jul 2003, J.C. Wren wrote:
My experience is that the people who have
problems with Windows are the
people who *want* to have problems with Windows. I have several Win2K
boxen here whose only reason for being rebooted every few months is
robbing harddrives or CD drives. I also have Linux boxen here, one that
currently has an uptime of 187 days. No major record, but it got a new
60GB HD back then.
I use Windows pretty hard, with a fairly constant set of software
(mapping, CAD software, IE, ProComm, CD ripping, a few other things), and
I don't get BSODs or crashes.
Perhaps this person should switch an an OS more suited to their
expectations. Like pencil and paper.
Congratulations.
YOU haven't had a problem, so you deny that any such problems exist.
To quote one of our other readers, "YOU ARE AN ASS."
> On Sunday 06 July 2003 10:52 am, Philip Pemberton wrote:
> > In message <20030701084856.Q32495(a)newshell.lmi.net>
> >
> > Fred Cisin <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> wrote:
> > > "I've been using Windoze for almost twenty minutes, and it
hasn't
> > > ever 'blue-screened'"
> >
> > So? I've been using RISC OS and Linux all day and neither of them have
> > BSODded, died horribly or crashed.
> > And ISTR my ISP has a Solaris server that's been up 24/7 for over six
> > months...
> >
> > Later.
7:23 a.m.
New subject: Asses (was: Windoze ...)
People,
Can we please drop the name-calling altogether and close
this topic? There is absolutely no need for this, and I,
for one, do not want to see it in my "retro=fun!" mailbox.
Thanks,
Fred
8:20 a.m.
New subject: Asses (was: Windoze ...)
On Sun, 6 Jul 2003, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
People,
Can we please drop the name-calling altogether and close
this topic? There is absolutely no need for this, and I,
for one, do not want to see it in my "retro=fun!" mailbox.
Thanks,
Fred
Sorry
We'll try to exercise more restraint
8:03 a.m.
New subject: Windoze crash (was Re: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...)
On Sun, 6 Jul 2003, J.C. Wren wrote:
Don't give me that crap.
WHICH crap?
That it is inappropriate to deny problems exist,
merely because you haven't encountered them?
or
what the Windoze reference was a metaphor for:
that it is inappropriate to deny that problems exist with Fry's,
merely because one went in there once without any problems?
I've been using personal computers since CP/M
2.2,
and whel you may have been doing it longer, I think that's damn well long
enough for me to recognize trends.
If it is meant to IMPRESS, then you gotta do better.
BUT,... it does back up your claim to recognize trends, by indicating that
you have been around for most of the development of Windoze. (CP/M, DOS,
etc.) I had no intention of impugning your length of time in the field.
Yes, "normal" people have Windows problems
now and again also. MY experience
shows that people who have the most problem are those that seem to be already
biased against Windows/MS, and are looking for problems.
I freely acknowledge that there are SOME people who create their own
problems.
And here certainly are cases where Windoze gets unfairly blamed for
other problems, including user error, and problems in applications
and drivers.
[Side note: I know of an Office-Jet composting on a shelf that had less
than 100 pages through it before an "upgrade" to Win2K resulted in it
being permanently removed from availability due to non-existence of
drivers.]
And some problems are not CAUSED by the OS, but consist
merely of GROSSLY inappropriate reactions by the OS to external problems
(ex: SMARTDRV write-caching, when encountering a bad sector)
And few would differentiate between what is validly a problem with the
OS v a problem with inadequate documentation or poor tech support.
Some people NEVER have a problem. Sometimes it is due to VERY limitied
types of usage (which might not apply to you, although the list of
software that you use does not include some catagories of software -
could those be related to your more positive experiences?). Sometimes
it's just a matter of probabilities.
NT,2K, and even XP, are significantly more reliable than 3x and 9x. And I
will grudgingly accept the need for added hurdles for intrinsically
destabilizing things like writing disk sectors (rather important to some
of us).
But I hardly think that the current state of reliability is beyond
reproach, beyond the possibilities for significant improvement, nor
even exempt from complaint.
And it will take a long time with high reliability to outlive reputations
acquired due to debacles like SMARTDRV.
SOME people actually have had unacceptable levels of reliability.
Those who have NOT experienced such problems should not
marginalize those who do.
Blaming the user is not always acceptable.
You don't like my theory, too bad. To quote
yourself: "YOU ARE AN ASS."
--John
Aren't we all
3:14 p.m.
New subject: Windoze crash (was Re: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...)
On Sun, 6 Jul 2003, Fred Cisin wrote:
I certainly am.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
You don't
like my theory, too bad. To quote yourself: "YOU ARE AN ASS."
Aren't we all 
4:13 p.m.
New subject: Software preservation......
Hi all,
I'm fairly new to computer collection as a hobby. One thing that has
recently become an issue is "software preservation". I have just inhereted
a bucket load of C64 and C128 origainal software. I'm wondering how best to
preserve this ciollection in a workable state?? I know there are sites out
there in web land that have copies of software for the commodore archived,
but how do I place these copies to a disk that a commodore 64/128 could
read?? Also what is the best way to store my origainal disks so they might
be usable in years to come??
Hope to hear from you all soon
Peter T.
10:15 p.m.
New subject: Software preservation......
There is software out there called Star Commander. ( The Star Commander
homepage is http://sta.c64.org/sc.html , although it is currently down)
It runs in DOS on PC hardware, although it runs best on older PC's
(486 and earlier Pentiums). You have to build a fairly simple adapter
cable, and that allows you to connect a Commodore 1541 or compatible
drive to the PC's parallel port. Once you have it all set up, it is a
simple matter to copy either individual files or make disk images.
Also, you can go the other way, making real disks from the images. It
is kinda slow, the Commodore disk drives were not known for their
speed, but there is a way to modify the drive to provide a faster,
parallel interface, instead of the Commodore serial. As for preserving
the original floppies, keep them in a cool, dry place, preferably
standing on end as opposed to laying flat so they don't warp, and in
some sort of covered box to keep dust and moisture out. Keep them away
from heat, extreme cold, and magnetic fields. 5 1/4
floppies are pretty
resilient, and can generally take quite a lot of mishandling
before
failing, but it's best not to chance it. Also, be careful of mildew.
There is a certain type that likes to live on the disk media, and shows
up as white blotches on the media itself. This generally destroys the
disk, although I have heard it is possible to take the media out of the
jacket, carefully clean it, and put it in a fresh jacket and recover
the data.
Ian Primus
ian_primus(a)yahoo.com
On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 12:08 AM, peter tremewen wrote:
Hi all,
I'm fairly new to computer collection as a hobby. One thing
that has
recently become an issue is "software preservation". I have just
inhereted
a bucket load of C64 and C128 origainal software. I'm wondering how
best to
preserve this ciollection in a workable state?? I know there are sites
out
there in web land that have copies of software for the commodore
archived,
but how do I place these copies to a disk that a commodore 64/128 could
read?? Also what is the best way to store my origainal disks so they
might
be usable in years to come??
Hope to hear from you all soon
Peter T.
3:12 p.m.
New subject: Windoze crash (was Re: Well, I was at Fry's in CA...)
On Sun, 6 Jul 2003, J.C. Wren wrote:
Don't give me that crap. I've been using
personal computers since CP/M 2.2,
and whel you may have been doing it longer, I think that's damn well long
enough for me to recognize trends.
Yes, "normal" people have Windows problems now and again also. MY experience
shows that people who have the most problem are those that seem to be already
biased against Windows/MS, and are looking for problems.
You don't like my theory, too bad. To quote yourself: "YOU ARE AN ASS."
Sheesh. First of all, calm down. You're taking this rather personally.
Secondly, I've been involved with computers a long time too. So have a
good many other people on this mailing list. One thing that generally
ties us together is that we have an appreciation for computers that are
robust and bug free. Operating systems prior to Windows generally fit
that description. Unless you've been living under a stone, it is
generally acknowledge amongst many professional computer people that MS is
a joke.
Most versions of Windows up until XP were buggy as hell and a pain in the
ass to maintain. When I was running Windows 95, I had to reboot a few
times a week. When I switched to Windows 98, a few times a month. Now
I'm using XP, and I still have to reboot once in a while. Definitely an
improvement. But the fact is, most of us have become so jaded with MS
"operating systems" that we instinctively think of them as crap.
Now, the real question is, why do you take attacks against an operating
system personally?
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
7839
days inactive
7865
days old
37 comments
21 participants
participants (21)
-
als＠thangorodrim.de -
bpope＠wordstock.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
geoffr＠zipcon.net -
Hans.Franke＠mch20.sbs.de -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
ian_primus＠yahoo.com -
jcwren＠jcwren.com -
jhfinexgs2＠compsys.to -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com -
nedry＠mail.bedlambells.com -
philpem＠dsl.pipex.com -
pne.chomko＠verizon.net -
ptremewe＠bigpond.net.au -
teoz＠neo.rr.com -
vcf＠siconic.com -
waltje＠pdp11.nl -
wmsmith＠earthlink.net