------------Original Message------------- Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 08:27:15 -0500 From: "Allison" <ajp166(a)bellatlantic.net> Subject: Re: Cromemco landmarks Nope. Nope. Yes and significant. Nope, IMSAI had a 8080 in the FDC. Nope, NS* and a slew of others. First was likely the Poly 88. Not hardly. Nice claims, put dates and supporting evidence up. Cromemco is best known for The Dazzler color display, RF tight systems in solid boxes and generally good systems. Allison ----------------------- Well, as I said, I'm only quoting their literature; interesting facts or amusing hyperbole, your choice. But they do indeed quite specifically make those claims, after this introduction: - "All of us who use Cromemco systems have, at one time or another, had to deal with the situation where someone asks you what kind of computer you have, and when you tell them you hear, "CROMEMCO? Never heard of them." Well, next time you hear that you can rattle off a few of the following first-time technical contributions that Cromemco has made to the microcomputer industry:"... - Having heard the "Never heard of them" myself often enough, even on this august forum, I thought I'd share the list with you. Quibble over details if you will, but to the best of my knowledge they were one of the few companies whose micros were credible enough to seriously compete with the minis of the day in large government & institutional settings. As you say, all they seem to be known for is the dazzler and the Sherman-tank-grade archaic 16 K Z-2's & CS3's, not the "big iron" of later years or the various innovations along the way, and that was my point, that there was more to Cromemco than most people seem to be aware of. But AFAIK, last I heard Harry Garland (one of the founders) is still around doing research for Canon, if you want to email & ask him to back up their claims... Or, since you're challenging, why not put up some dates & supporting evidence yourself? I'm not arguing or flaming, but I assume that for you to say 'Nope' so authoritatively & so often you must have some supporting facts of your own, which would be interesting indeed. Who did market a commercial micro with an integrated Winchester before Cromemco in '79, for example? If ads are any indication, at the time Cromemco announced the Z-2H the only other HD's I can find in my old Bytes is Corvus's add-on external version, and Ohio's Challenger and various add-on drives using cartridge modules, not Winchesters, although Altos announced one a few months after Cromemco. As to the performance figures vs. DEC, they were taken from Datamation & Unix World magazines and a UNIX USENET study, this being in late 1986. Interestingly enough, Dhrystone benchmarks are: Cromix CS420: 3703 VAX11/785 2136 VAX11/780 1662 MicroVAX-II 1612 VAX11/750 1091 IBM RT 1333 While the Whetstone scores make the MicroVAX look a lot better: CS420 1,050,000 MicroVAX II 877,000 VAX11/780 476,000 IBM RT 200,000 Cromemco Z80 7,000 Cromemco never claimed to be the fastest, just that they, using the S-100 bus, "... can clearly outperform even some of the most capable mini-computers, and do so at a price/performance point unequalled by any other technology in the industry." How much did a '780 or '785 and a MicroVAX cost in '86? I'll be the first to admit that I know zip about DEC and the only other literature I had with prices just went off to Norm in SF (has it arrived yet, Norm?) And I think they meant I/O channel processors in the mini/mainframe sense, not an intelligent(?) floppy drive; there's something categorically different between an IOP CBUS I/O controller and a PET FDD, even with its 2 CPU's... Raises an interesting point though; what is considered an authoritative source for who did what and when, if we don't trust ads or company literature, especially as it becomes scarcer & memories begin to fade? Certainly is a lot of incorrect information on the various 'Web sites purporting to be accurate time lines, although if that can be trusted the Poly88 came out in '77 while the Cromemco was definitely around at least in '76... And I swore I'd never get drawn into one of these discussions :)... leave it with ya... m