10 Jun
2009
10 Jun
'09
2:45 a.m.
WHO died? Let's see, what operating systems have I used in the past year?
VMS
RT-11
CP/M
Tops-10
Tops-20
RSX-11
OS-8
MVS
too many versions of Unix to count (including v6, which did NOT include a screen editor!)
several 'tiny OS' products
MSDOS
...and several versions of Windows, including Win95, W2K, WinXP, WinCE and that Vista
'thing'
Your definition of "from way back" seems somewhat limited... by the way, did you
realize that VMS is still a supported OS, more than thirty years after its introduction?
Further, your reluctance to use non-screen-oriented editors is, shall we say, 'bad
juju' in this community. While I certainly prefer a screen editor such as vi (and not
such as EMACS), I can easily do ed or TECO as needed, because I MUST in order to work with
truly vintage systems. -- Ian
________________________________________
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
Kirn Gill [segin2005 at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 2:10 PM
To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: UNIX V7
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
John Floren wrote:
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Ethan
Dicks<ethan.dicks at gmail.com>
wrote:
It might seem odd, but I don't know how to use
'ed'. I kinda know 'ex'
due to the fact 'vi' is 'ex' turned from a line editor to a screen
editor. Most of what I know about computers from way back is mostly
limited to UNIX (and that's only because UNIX didn't die like the
other OSes.)
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Kirn
Gill<segin2005 at gmail.com>
wrote:
> I need a screen editor.
ed /is/ the standard editor
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10 Jun
10 Jun
3:01 a.m.
On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:45 PM, Ian King wrote:
Your definition of "from way back" seems
somewhat limited... by the
way, did you realize that VMS is still a supported OS, more than
thirty years after its introduction?
Not only supported, but still under very active development!
Further, your reluctance to use non-screen-oriented
editors is,
shall we say, 'bad juju' in this community. While I certainly
prefer a screen editor such as vi (and not such as EMACS), I can
easily do ed or TECO as needed, because I MUST in order to work
with truly vintage systems. -- Ian
Please cut the guy some slack, Ian. The OP was Kirn, who is 19.
His idea of "way back" is pretty different from yours or mine.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
11 Jun
11 Jun
12:06 p.m.
On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 11:42:34PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote:
Not so fast. Looks like we are going to have a nice mix of platforms
with a good chunk of non-Windows for quite some time to come[0]. Yes, most
end user desktop probably are Windows with a bit of MacOS X and a tiny
sprinkling of Linux, but if you look at servers, things look rather
differently. Although, working for a company with a not so small number
of Linux servers, my view might be a bit biased.
Regards,
Alex.
[0] Yes, less variance than there used to be, but it's not all
monoculture and it doesn't look like it will be anytime soon.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
?Why is that?
?Because it's not Windows?
Mostly, yes.
Head out of the sand, man. 
10 Jun
10 Jun
3:46 a.m.
On Tuesday 09 June 2009, Dave McGuire wrote:
On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:24 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
Why is that? Because it's not Windows?
Probably because its usage is going down over time? I can't be
completely sure, but I'm willing to bet that if HP ported it to
x86/amd64 instead of ia64, it would have had a better chance of holding
ground.
There are things other than Windows that aren't "sinking ships."
Probably all of them run on (or at least support) amd64 instruction-set
processors.
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
Not only
supported, but still under very active development!
It is still a sinking ship, unfortunately.
3:55 a.m.
On Tuesday 09 June 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
On Tuesday 09 June 2009, Dave McGuire wrote:
Sigh, except for "embedded" stuff, anyways.
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:24 PM, William Donzelli
wrote:
Why is that? Because it's not Windows?
Probably because its usage is going down over time? I can't be
completely sure, but I'm willing to bet that if HP ported it to
x86/amd64 instead of ia64, it would have had a better chance of
holding ground.
There are things other than Windows that aren't "sinking ships."
Probably all of them run on (or at least support) amd64
instruction-set processors. Not only
supported, but still under very active development!
It is still a sinking ship, unfortunately. 
11:25 a.m.
On Tue, 2009-06-09 at 23:46 -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
On Tuesday 09 June 2009, Dave McGuire wrote:
I'm surprised there hasn't been an open-source clone of VMS yet.
There's a pretty much functional open-source clone of BeOS, a pretty
much functional open-source clone of Windows, and more open-source
Unix-alikes than you could shake quite a large stick at. There's even a
fairly "early days yet" OS/2 clone - anyone fancy porting it to a PDP11?
Maybe I haven't looked hard enough for VMS.
Gordon
On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:24 PM, William Donzelli
wrote:
Why is that? Because it's not Windows?
Probably because its usage is going down over time? I can't be
completely sure, but I'm willing to bet that if HP ported it to
x86/amd64 instead of ia64, it would have had a better chance of holding
ground. Not only
supported, but still under very active development!
It is still a sinking ship, unfortunately. 
12:29 p.m.
On Wed, 2009-06-10 at 12:25 +0100, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
On Tue, 2009-06-09 at 23:46 -0400, Patrick Finnegan
wrote:
There's FreeVMS at http://www.freevms.net. Its pretty early and its
based off of linux, so YMMV.
On Tuesday 09 June 2009, Dave McGuire wrote:
I'm surprised there hasn't been an open-source clone of VMS yet.
There's a pretty much functional open-source clone of BeOS, a pretty
much functional open-source clone of Windows, and more open-source
Unix-alikes than you could shake quite a large stick at. There's even a
fairly "early days yet" OS/2 clone - anyone fancy porting it to a PDP11?
Maybe I haven't looked hard enough for VMS.
Gordon
On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:24 PM, William Donzelli
wrote:
Probably because its usage is going down over time? I can't be
completely sure, but I'm willing to bet that if HP ported it to
x86/amd64 instead of ia64, it would have had a better chance of holding
ground. > Not only supported, but still under very
active development!
It is still a sinking ship, unfortunately.
Why is that? Because it's not Windows?
12:52 p.m.
On Jun 10, 2009, at 7:25 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
I'm surprised there hasn't been an open-source
clone of VMS yet.
There's a pretty much functional open-source clone of BeOS, a pretty
much functional open-source clone of Windows, and more open-source
Unix-alikes than you could shake quite a large stick at. There's
even a
fairly "early days yet" OS/2 clone - anyone fancy porting it to a
PDP11?
Maybe I haven't looked hard enough for VMS.
Does anyone remember PC-VMS from Wendin? Better yet, does anyone
have a copy?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
11 Jun
11 Jun
2:56 a.m.
At 07:52 AM 6/10/2009, Dave McGuire wrote:
Does anyone remember PC-VMS from Wendin? Better yet,
does anyone
have a copy?
Looks like they might've hired several packrat consultants:
http://personallyinteresting.blogspot.com/2009/04/computer-archeology.html
http://www.datapackrat.com/source/vim.html
- John
9:23 p.m.
Eric Smith wrote:
Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
Oh come on, it'll be good, I'm sure. Not sure what the preferred distribution
media should be - TK50 tape, perhaps? :-)
There's even a
fairly "early days yet" OS/2 clone - anyone fancy porting it to a PDP11?
Why, when there are much nicer operating systems already running on the
PDP-11?
9:44 p.m.
On Jun 10, 2009, at 5:23 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
Oh come on, it'll be good, I'm sure. Not sure what the preferred
distribution media should be - TK50 tape, perhaps? :-)
ROFL!!
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
There's even a
fairly "early days yet" OS/2 clone - anyone fancy porting it to a
PDP11?
Why, when there are much nicer operating systems already running
on the PDP-11? 
3:50 a.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:24 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
Why is that? Because it's not Windows?
It's also not UNIX (which killed off its share of OSes back in the day...)
Josh
Not only
supported, but still under very active development!
It is still a sinking ship, unfortunately.
-Dave
4:06 a.m.
At 11:32 PM -0400 6/9/09, Dave McGuire wrote:
On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:24 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
Why is that? Because it's not Windows?
No, because a sizable portion of the Development group's last day
working was last Friday. :-( I'm honestly not sure who is left. HP
in their infinite lack of wisdom has chosen to do away with highly
experienced members of the VMS Development teams and outsource their
jobs to India. This does not bode well for VMS. As much as it pains
me to say this, after last Friday I have to question just how active
the development of VMS is. :-(
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
Not only
supported, but still under very active development!
It is still a sinking ship, unfortunately. 
7:03 a.m.
OMG! Really?
Short term, short sighted and it will come back and haunt them.
Regards
Rod Smallwood
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy
Sent: 10 June 2009 05:06
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7)
At 11:32 PM -0400 6/9/09, Dave McGuire wrote:
On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:24 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
Why is that? Because it's not Windows?
No, because a sizable portion of the Development group's last day
working was last Friday. :-( I'm honestly not sure who is left. HP
in their infinite lack of wisdom has chosen to do away with highly
experienced members of the VMS Development teams and outsource their
jobs to India. This does not bode well for VMS. As much as it pains
me to say this, after last Friday I have to question just how active
the development of VMS is. :-(
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
Not only
supported, but still under very active development!
It is still a sinking ship, unfortunately. 
1:14 p.m.
Short term, short sighted and it will come back and
haunt them.
In reality, probably not. Like the waning days of Alpha, the highly
experienced people have already jumped ship years ago. What is (was)
left is a mere shell of what was. At the June MIT Flea I will ask
around and get the true story, as there are some relatively high
ranking DECheads that attend.
--
Will
12:45 p.m.
On Jun 10, 2009, at 12:06 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
Why is that? Because it's not Windows?
No, because a sizable portion of the Development group's last day
working was last Friday. :-( I'm honestly not sure who is left.
HP in their infinite lack of wisdom has chosen to do away with
highly experienced members of the VMS Development teams and
outsource their jobs to India. This does not bode well for VMS.
As much as it pains me to say this, after last Friday I have to
question just how active the development of VMS is. :-(
Oh my, now that's a different matter entirely. (and a reason that
has a basis in reality)
That is most disturbing.
I sincerely hope that someone leaks the last-good source code
before the "hey we're cheaper" guys start screwing it up.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Not only
supported, but still under very active development!
It is still a sinking ship, unfortunately.
3:28 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 8:01 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7)
On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:45 PM, Ian King wrote:
Dave, in truth I spent no little time writing a less harsh response than I might have, but
I feel it is necessary to address his dismissive attitude toward the realities of vintage
systems and their software, if he wants to play in this pool. It's not the lack of
knowledge - that can be corrected, as I experience every day in my own life - but what I
perceive as the attitude that "it's not worth knowing" that harshes my
mellow. -- Ian
Your definition of "from way back"
seems somewhat limited... by the
way, did you realize that VMS is still a supported OS, more than
thirty years after its introduction?
Not only supported, but still under very active development!
Further, your reluctance to use
non-screen-oriented editors is,
shall we say, 'bad juju' in this community. While I certainly
prefer a screen editor such as vi (and not such as EMACS), I can
easily do ed or TECO as needed, because I MUST in order to work
with truly vintage systems. -- Ian
Please cut the guy some slack, Ian. The OP was Kirn, who is 19.
His idea of "way back" is pretty different from yours or mine.
-Dave
3:55 a.m.
On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:28 PM, Ian King wrote:
Dave, in truth I spent no little time writing a less harsh response
than I might have, but I feel it is necessary to address his
dismissive attitude toward the realities of vintage systems and
their software, if he wants to play in this pool. It's not the
lack of knowledge - that can be corrected, as I experience every
day in my own life - but what I perceive as the attitude that "it's
not worth knowing" that harshes my mellow. -- Ian
I don't think it's anything to worry about. Most guys his age
think "vintage computer" means a Pentium-4 that's clocked at less
than 2GHz. I've talked to him; he is clueful. He is also local to
me, and I expect I'll be setting him up with some good stuff.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Further, your reluctance to use non-screen-oriented
editors is,
shall we say, 'bad juju' in this community. While I certainly
prefer a screen editor such as vi (and not such as EMACS), I can
easily do ed or TECO as needed, because I MUST in order to work
with truly vintage systems. -- Ian
Please cut the guy some slack, Ian. The OP was Kirn, who is 19.
His idea of "way back" is pretty different from yours or mine.
11 Jun
11 Jun
9:46 p.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:45 PM, Ian King wrote:
Ah, that magical age when DDR has nothing to do with East Germany...
Warren
Your definition of "from way back"
seems somewhat limited... by the
way, did you realize that VMS is still a supported OS, more than
thirty years after its introduction?
Not only supported, but still under very active development!
Further, your reluctance to use
non-screen-oriented editors is,
shall we say, 'bad juju' in this community. While I certainly prefer
a screen editor such as vi (and not such as EMACS), I can easily do
ed or TECO as needed, because I MUST in order to work with truly
vintage systems. -- Ian
Please cut the guy some slack, Ian. The OP was Kirn, who is 19.
His idea of "way back" is pretty different from yours or mine.
-Dave
5690
days inactive
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24 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
alexandre-listas＠e-secure.com.br -
als＠thangorodrim.de -
bdwheele＠indiana.edu -
derschjo＠mail.msu.edu -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
gordonjcp＠gjcp.net -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
IanK＠vulcan.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jules.richardson99＠gmail.com -
lists＠databasics.us -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
rodsmallwood＠btconnect.com -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com