19 Apr
2016
19 Apr
'16
10:53 a.m.
Well, after discussing all things that can go wrong with a floppy disk to
corrupt or destroy it, it makes me wonder about another vintage media
format: the cart.
How long will they last?
Why does blowing on them help? (mosture? cleaning action?)
Are some better than others in terms of longevity?
Can they be refurbished ?
Remember when folks would publish apps on carts to enhance the copy
protection ?
Remember the ones like Starfox for the SNES that had coprocessors embedded
on them? Those were neat.
Seen the crazy prices for rare Neo Geo carts? $400 bucks for "Twinkle Star
Sprites" ? Sure!
I have some 90's consoles in my collection and I fondly remember a few
systems that took carts that family and friends owned back in the 80's and
90's. I thought the Colecovision Adam was awesome. My cousin had one and I
was so jealous. The C64, 80's 8bit Atari PCs, the IBM PC Jr, and others all
had cartridge ports, too.
-Swift
19 Apr
19 Apr
11:13 a.m.
On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:53 AM, Swift Griggs
<swiftgriggs at gmail.com> wrote:
Well, after discussing all things that can go wrong with a floppy disk to
corrupt or destroy it, it makes me wonder about another vintage media
format: the cart.
You mean a ROM cartridge as opposed to a magnetic tape cartridge, right?
("Cart" is also broadcast radio slang for magnetic tape cartridges, vaguely like
an 8-track tape in appearance.)
How long will they last?
That would depend on the ROM type: mask, PROM, EEPROM. I don't know which was used.
Fuse PROM supposedly may suffer from "fuse regrowth" depending on manufacturer
and process used. But if well made I would expect them to last as long as any other solid
state electronics.
Why does blowing on them help? (mosture? cleaning
action?)
Placebo effect? :-) I can't see how it makes any difference, unless the contacts are
dirty. If they are, they should be cleaned, with a proper cleaning method.
paul
11:38 a.m.
On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Paul Koning wrote:
No disrespect, but it sounds like you've never owned an older 8-bit NES with
some well worn cartridges. There is no doubt in my mind that blowing on
those gives a much higher chance of making a flaky cart work right. I'm
sure others can back me up on this. It's got to do something, because the
effect is quite dramatic. Insert the same cart 20 times, it'll fail 20
times. Blow on it once and it works. My guess is that the thin layer of
moisture/condensate is the key. Perhaps it helps overcome some resistance
due to oxidization of the cart edge connector ? This effect, in fact,
inspired the NES "Blow me" tee shirt here: http://www.bustedtees.com/blowme
Swift
You mean a ROM cartridge as opposed to a magnetic tape
cartridge, right?
("Cart" is also broadcast radio slang for magnetic tape cartridges,
vaguely like an 8-track tape in appearance.)
ROM carts, yes. I know what you mean about the old radio "carts" too.
I've
seen them, but that's about it.
That would depend on the ROM type: mask, PROM, EEPROM.
I don't know which
was used. Fuse PROM supposedly may suffer from "fuse regrowth" depending
Huh. Weird. I'll have to see how long that takes. My guess is that they
will outlast anyone who cares enough to collect them, but maybe not.
Why does
blowing on them help? (moisture? cleaning action?)
Placebo effect? :-) I
can't see how it makes any difference, unless the
contacts are dirty. If they are, they should be cleaned, with a proper
cleaning method. 
11:45 a.m.
On 04/19/2016 08:13 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
...As opposed to the cart filled with listings, tapes and card trays
that I/O clerks pushed around. Such a card full of 9 track tapes would
probably qualify as a storage medium.
Or the cartridge filled with buckshot that you'd liked to have used on
the I/O clerk who dumped your tray of cards off the cart...
--Chuck
On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:53 AM, Swift Griggs
<swiftgriggs at gmail.com>
wrote:
Well, after discussing all things that can go wrong with a floppy
disk to corrupt or destroy it, it makes me wonder about another
vintage media format: the cart.
You mean a ROM cartridge as opposed to a magnetic tape cartridge,
right? ("Cart" is also broadcast radio slang for magnetic tape
cartridges, vaguely like an 8-track tape in appearance.) 
11:45 a.m.
On 2016-Apr-19, at 8:13 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
PROMs tended to be relatively smaller in capacity than the other options and not likely to
be found in a cart.
By the time you get into the production volumes of mast carts and large manufacturers,
mask ROMS are going to be the economic preference.
As such, carts are going to be quite reliable - more or less as reliable as any other
piece of hardware involving ICs and worked contacts.
On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:53 AM, Swift Griggs
<swiftgriggs at gmail.com> wrote:
Well, after discussing all things that can go wrong with a floppy disk to
corrupt or destroy it, it makes me wonder about another vintage media
format: the cart.
You mean a ROM cartridge as opposed to a magnetic tape cartridge, right?
("Cart" is also broadcast radio slang for magnetic tape cartridges, vaguely like
an 8-track tape in appearance.)
How long will they last?
That would depend on the ROM type: mask, PROM, EEPROM. I don't know which was used.
Fuse PROM supposedly may suffer from "fuse regrowth" depending on manufacturer
and process used. But if well made I would expect them to last as long as any other solid
state electronics. Why does
blowing on them help? (mosture? cleaning action?)
Placebo effect? :-) I can't see how it makes any difference, unless the contacts
are dirty. If they are, they should be cleaned, with a proper cleaning method.
paul
11:43 a.m.
How long will they last?
Probably a long time, but dump them all anyways! You never know!
Why does blowing on them help? (mosture? cleaning
action?)
The moisure makes the connection work better or something, so that is
where it comes from. Cleaning the contacts is best, and if it's a NES you
can replace the "finger module" or the slots on other systems.
Are some better than others in terms of longevity?
The card edge connectors would probably be where the reliability comes in.
Can they be refurbished ?
Depending on the system there are reproduction labels made. A lot of the
older game system carts you will find the labels coming off or
deteriorating. It depends on how they were stored I'd guess. Moisture and
heat.
Remember when folks would publish apps on carts to
enhance the copy
protection ?
I think it was used more because the intro cost to the system was cheaper.
Floppy drives were expensive, you could sell carts to people with basic
systems.
There were units for some of the game systems like the SNES that sat on
top, and allowed you to copy the rom cart contents to floppy disks. Then
you could re-load the contents of the rom cart from the floppy disks into
RAM in the "console copier" and then play the pirated games. Also on the
home computers people dumped rom carts and made binary executables.
Remember the ones like Starfox for the SNES that had
coprocessors embedded
on them? Those were neat.
Yes, I think there were only two for the SNES but I could be wrong. Check
out Pitfall II on the Atari 2600, it has a sound processor in the cart.
In the documentary "Stella at 20" the engineers of the Atari 2600 talk
about how they cut ?4? pins off the Atari 2600 cart to shave costs. The
next year the costs were so much lower it was a neglible price cut, but
had the pins been left there it would have allowed more memory space to be
accessable in the cart leading to tons of expansion possibilities.
Re: Rare Neo Geo carts
Sprites" ? Sure!
Yep, have a 4 slot MVS at home and run a 161 in 1 cart in it. Sure I'd
love to have piles of Magical Drop 3's and stuff, but just not gonna
embrace the video-games-are-beanie-babies thing. Some of the N64 and SNES
games are more now than they were new.
But if you want to see real bubble, look into collecting A list pinball
titles.
I have some 90's consoles in my collection and I
fondly remember a few
systems that took carts that family and friends owned back in the 80's and
90's. I thought the Colecovision Adam was awesome. My cousin had one and I
was so jealous. The C64, 80's 8bit Atari PCs, the IBM PC Jr, and others all
had cartridge ports, too.
Yep, and the same damn games on all of them :-) AtariSoft! Parker Bros!
Etc. Frogger and the Qbert and the Centipede and the Defender.
--
Ethan O'Toole
12:41 p.m.
On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote:
It seems like both sides can get worn out. I've seen carts that'd have
problems wherever you took them, even on nearly new NES units. On the other
hand I've seen well-worn NES systems that could barely play a brand-new
cart. I'm guessing that's where replacing the finger module would really
give you a new lease on life for your NES.
It looked like some were plated with gold, some with tin, and others I
couldn't really tell (copper? brass?). I'm guessing gold-plated edge
connectors would be great, but who knows, maybe gold is too soft. I'm not a
metallurgist or a EE, so I'm just speculating.
I think I remember reading the same thing somewhere.
Why does
blowing on them help? (mosture? cleaning action?)
The moisure makes the connection
work better or something, so that is
where it comes from. Cleaning the contacts is best, and if it's a NES you
can replace the "finger module" or the slots on other systems. Are some
better than others in terms of longevity?
The card edge connectors would probably
be where the reliability comes in. A lot of the older game system carts you will find the
labels coming off
or deteriorating. It depends on how they were stored I'd guess. Moisture
and heat.
Selling reproduction labels sounds like a cool side-job for someone with an
extra dye-sub printer laying around.
I think it was used more because the intro cost to the
system was cheaper.
Floppy drives were expensive, you could sell carts to people with basic
systems.
I didn't think of that. That makes a lot of sense. I was just a kid in the
80's. Business sense wasn't something I had a lot of at 8 years old. :-)
There were units for some of the game systems like the
SNES that sat on
top, and allowed you to copy the rom cart contents to floppy disks.
Yes! I remember those. I was in Jr. High and I remember going to some
older kid's house (spoiled rich kid with a huge computer lab). One of the
many things he owned that made my 12 year old eyes bug out was one of the
units you are describing. He'd rent all the new games from Blockbuster
Video and then copy them off to 1.44MB 3.5" floppies. They were always
called something like "Super Mega Duper" or some take-off on the game
console name with a bit of Asian flare from Hong Kong where they were made.
What I wonder is where did people get them? My family was too poor for such
things, but I still wonder where that kid got that gadget in the
pre-internet era. Ads in the back of magazines or something ?
Remember the
ones like Starfox for the SNES that had coprocessors embedded
on them? Those were neat.
Yes, I think there were only two for the SNES but I
could be wrong. Check out Pitfall II on the Atari 2600, it has a sound
processor in the
cart.
I just did. Neat. Here's the key excerpt from Wikipedia:
"The version developed for the Atari 2600 featured a four-part harmony music
soundtrack throughout the game, a first for the Atari 2600 platform. This
was accomplished by building a custom chip called the "DPC" chip into the
cartridge. This was also designed by game author David Crane."
How many game designers of today could/would design their own silicon? I'm
thinking there isn't a Unity module for that. :-)
The next year the costs were so much lower it was a
neglible price cut,
but had the pins been left there it would have allowed more memory space
to be accessable in the cart leading to tons of expansion possibilities.
That was probably some business-weasels' idea. They ruin everything. Look
what they did to Commodore. The could not physically produce and sell
enough Amigas when they died. How can you f-up a business like that? Wait
don't tell me, you let some Ivy-league CEO load up on debt, cut corners on
production, screw your vendors & partners, stall and cut R&D then just
continue making old hardware, and finally allow the trademark to be pass
through so many idle hands that the name becomes meaningless. That seemed
to do it for Commodore.
Yep, have a 4 slot MVS at home and run a 161 in 1 cart
in it.
I have one of those MVS conversion consoles. I would have got an AES, but
uhhh, not for the prices they go for. I'd probably have to spend 2-10x as
much to get the same collection. I just have 5 "real" carts of my favorites
(Samurai Showdown and the like). I rarely use them as I also have the Stone
Age Gamer 161-in-1 rig.
gonna embrace the video-games-are-beanie-babies thing.
Same here. Carts do make people more conducive to getting obsessive like
this, though. You don't often see people getting that excited over 20 year
old (and probably corrupt floppies) PC game original materials.
Some of the N64 and SNES games are more now than they
were new.
Some Zelda games comes to mind. I've seen the raw carts go pretty cheap
($15-20 bucks on ebay $20-50 bucks at local used shops), but some of the
special editions where people still have the box and dox go for $250 bucks
on Ebay.
But if you want to see real bubble, look into
collecting A list pinball
titles.
Hmm, weird. I wonder if that is because the generations of pinball players
are getting old enough to retire and need more hobbies? Then perhaps they
go out and buy all the best machines with the coolest tables and effects?
It makes me wonder if Neo Geo carts will be $1000 a pop when my generation
(gen-x) starts to retire. Maybe it'll be Amiga that'll shoot up. I kind of
doubt it, though. My guess is that commodity 3D printers will be good
enough to print replicas (or enough parts to make your own replicas) in the
next 30 years. That would change these hobby economies quite a bit.
Yep, and the same damn games on all of them :-)
AtariSoft! Parker Bros!
Etc. Frogger and the Qbert and the Centipede and the Defender.
I know, right? It was always cool when some developer would go all-out and
develop a game specifically to take advantage of one platform's hardware
instead of trying to release it on umpteen platforms. Whenever they turned
out any good games, there'd be a port to an "inferior" platform and we'd
all
know it since the gaming magazines would skewer them with screenshot
comparisons.
-Swift
5:47 p.m.
On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Swift Griggs <swiftgriggs at gmail.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote:
you
I bought an NES back in the day brand-new ( I guess that would have been
about 1988) and as an anally-retentive pre-teen I never had problems with
any of the cartridges that I spent my hard-earned lawn mowing money on for
couple of years worth of solid play... that is until I lent them out to
friends that would invariably use the "blow in the cartridge" trick. It
does work, and I suspect that the moisture from your breath is the correct
culprit. Some carts had gold fingers, some tinned, and as I later went on
to work at a local video game swapping business as a teenager I noted that
quite a few of the tin plated edge connector carts were really really
corroded... from people blowing on the carts no doubt.
Nevertheless, later model systems without the ZIF connector never seemed to
have the same issues with carts that the NES had. :)
Why does
blowing on them help? (mosture? cleaning action?)
The moisure makes the connection
work better or something, so that is
where it comes from. Cleaning the contacts is best, and if it's a NES can replace the "finger module" or the
slots on other systems.
It seems like both sides can get worn out. I've seen carts that'd have
problems wherever you took them, even on nearly new NES units. On the
other
hand I've seen well-worn NES systems that could barely play a brand-new
cart. I'm guessing that's where replacing the finger module would really
give you a new lease on life for your NES.
3:29 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: <ethan at 757.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits
Sorry, you are wrong. I own three SNES games that use the SFX chip:
Starfox, Stunt Race FX and Yoshi's Island (SFX chip used for sprite rotation
and 3D objects, such as doors that fell towards the screen). There was to be
a Stunt Race FX 2 game, but I believe it was cancelled and never released.
The Megadrive had a few games too, with the SVP (Sega Virtua Processor)
chip: Virtua Fighter (I think?), Virtua Racing (definately) and Vectorman (I
think?).
Regards,
Andrew Burton
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk
www.aliensrcooluk.com
> Remember the ones like Starfox for the SNES that
had coprocessors
embedded
on them? Those
were neat.
Yes, I think there were only two for the SNES but I could be wrong. Check
out Pitfall II on the Atari 2600, it has a sound processor in the cart.
--
Ethan O'Toole
3:52 p.m.
On Tue, 19 Apr 2016, Andrew Burton wrote:
Sorry, you are wrong. I own three SNES games that
use the SFX chip:
Starfox, Stunt Race FX and Yoshi's Island (SFX chip used for sprite
rotation and 3D objects, such as doors that fell towards the screen).
Cool. I thought there were only two as well. Glad to be corrected, then.
I don't remember Stunt Race FX, but I sure loved Starfox.
The Megadrive had a few games too, with the SVP (Sega
Virtua Processor)
chip: Virtua Fighter (I think?), Virtua Racing (definately) and Vectorman (I
think?).
Oh I never heard about that one. I believe I have one of those titles for
the Sega 32X, too. However, it probably had enough grunt to play it as-is.
I'm not sure if the 32X had any 3D hardware.
-Swift
3:17 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Swift Griggs" <swiftgriggs at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 3:53 PM
Subject: ROM Cartridges. Lifespan, and other tidbits
Seen the crazy prices for rare Neo Geo carts? $400
bucks for "Twinkle Star
Sprites" ? Sure!
-Swift
Heh! I knew someone around 15 years ago that paid ?700 for a rare Japanese
Neo Geo cartridge. (No, I can't recall which game)
Another cartridge related question I'd like to throw open to the collective:
what about cartridges that have internal saves on them, such as Super Mario
World (SNES) or Micro Machines (Megadrive)? Does playing them regularly
really recharge the battery/non-volatile RAM so they continue to keep the
saves intact?
I usually play my cart games with saves on every year and that seems to keep
the saves intact (Donkey Kong Country 1 (SNES) is about 22 years old now and
I bought the game at it's UK launch).
Regards,
Andrew Burton
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk
www.aliensrcooluk.com
5:49 p.m.
On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:53 AM, Swift Griggs <swiftgriggs at gmail.com> wrote:
I have some 90's consoles in my collection and I fondly remember a few
systems that took carts that family and friends owned back in the 80's and
90's. I thought the Colecovision Adam was awesome. My cousin had one and
I
was so jealous. The C64, 80's 8bit Atari PCs, the IBM PC Jr, and others
all
had cartridge ports, too.
I loved (and still do) the ADAM. It is an under-appreciated machine these
days IMO. Most of the initial launch issues you read about have long since
been corrected by the ravages of time, and what remains are on the whole
pretty solid units.
3015
days inactive
3015
days old
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